Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

L.C. Howard Interview

John Hennen: It's Thursday, June twentieth-seventh, 1989. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center preparing to conduct an oral history interview with Rev. L.C. Howard in his home in New Center. Just outside of Matewan. (2 miles - near Red Jacket, WV) (tape cuts off) Well, Reverend Howard, by way of gettin' started here, if you'd give me some biographical information. Where...where and when were you born and tell me something about your parents.

L.C. Howard: I was born July 18, 1912.

J: ANd where...where was that?

LH: Wise County, Virginia.

J: Okay.

LH: Place called Craness.

J: WHat's that again?

LH: Craness.

J: Okay.

LH: That's in Wise County. THat's at the Northern Appalachian Big Stone Gap.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Okay. My daddy was a coalminer. Worked for the Trenchville Coal Corporation.

J: Okay. Was he a miner his...pretty his entire working life?

LH: Oh, That he's a miner as far as I know.

J: Un-hun.

LH: And uh...we left for Virginia, moved to Stone Kentucky in about twenty-four. I was twelve years old.

J: And what company was he workin' for in Stone?

LH: At Stone uh...Fortune Coal company.

J: Okay.

LH: So I grew up there at STone Kentucky and went to school there.

J: Did you have brothers and sisters?

LH: One brother...

J: Okay.

LH: Older than me.

J: ANd how bout your mother's...

LH: My mother...uh..well she, my mother and father were with me with us at Stone Kentucky.

J: Um-hum.

LH: THen uh...then I went to...I went to school at Huddy Kentucky. THat's down below Stone. In fact, I'm pastorin' in the building that I went to school in.

J: Oh. Is that right?

LH: Um-hum.

JH: WHat's uh...the name of your church.

LH: Up er'(here) at Mount Caramel Baptist CHurch.

J: Mount Caramel.

LH: I been pastorin' there thirty-nine year.

J: Thirty nine years straight through?

LH: This September comin'. Thirty-nine years.

J: Okay. I'll have some questions about...about that in a few minutes but uh... now, um...did you all live in company housing in Stone?

LH: Yeah. At Stone yeah.

J: What kind of a set up did you have there?

LH: Well..

J: Size of the house.

LH: I think it was five rooms, called them shot guns. Long houses. THat's were I's raised at. That's at McAndrew, Kentucky.

J: Un-hun.

LH: That's above Stone.

J: Now...

LH: My daddy worked for Stone at the mines.

J: I've heard the expression shot gun housing, How would you...

LH: That's a long house straight through.

J: Okay.

LH: With a porch, long porch and five or six rooms. Just, you can go from one to the other, they straight on through.

J: Okay.

LH: Regular...from one room to the other room, just like goin' through here straight through.

J: Okay.

LH: Um-hum. We called them shot gun houses.

J: Did these houses have electricity when you were a kid?

LH: Yeah. Not in Virginia but we got to Kentucky, we had electricity.

J: Was that generated by the uh...by the coal company or...

LH: Yeah, at that time, we got it from the coal company at Stone.

J: Okay.

LH: Then later on through the years, then they...they eliminated their power plant at Stone and they bought it from Appalachia Power Company, in West...in the region now. I've had one now.

J: Now you said you went to school at...What was the name of the little community?

LH: Huddy. H.U.D.D.Y. Huddy Kentucky.

J: Okay.

LH: That's just this side of Stone.

J: Was that close enough that you could walk to school?

LH: Yeah. If it wasn't so close but I walked. (laughing)

J: Yeah. Bout how far was it?

LH: I'd say it's about probably about four miles somethin' like that four or five miles, somethin' like that.

J: So you walked about eight miles a day to get to school?

LH: Right. Practically.

J: And did your sister go to the same school?

LH: I don't have a sister, I have a brother.

J: Oh, I'm sorry.

LH: Got a brother.

J: did our brother go there also?

LH: No...no. He was older than me. He's...he was workin',

J: Okay. Now, did this school at Huddy, did black and white kids go to school there?

LH: No...no. All blacks.

J: It was all black school?

LH: Um-hum.

J: And where did the white kids from Stone go to school?

LH: They went to school at Stone.

J: So they had their own school right there in the community?

LH: Right. At Stone.

J: Did you continue in school after elementary school then?

LH: No...no. I went to the...went to the ninth grade and I went to work in the mines. I quit school in the eighth.

J: So you...so you started work in the mines when you were about thirteen or fourteen? No you'd have been older than that.

LH: Fifteen years old.

J: Fifteen years old.

LH: I's (I'm) supposed to be sixteen. My mother signed up for me, 1927.

J: So you had your...you had to get your parents consent to go to work at sixteen and they...you were actually fifteen.

LH: Right.

J: Okay.

LH: Um-hum.

J: And was that also for Fortune Coal Company?

LH: No...I...I went to work for the Octavia J. Coal Company. That was in McAndrew, Kentucky.

J: Okay. Who owned that company?

LH: Well, that was the name of the woman that owned it. His name was Octavia J.

J: Okay. J.A.Y.

LH: Uh...Octavia Jay. Octavia Jay.

J: Did you know her?

LH: I met her with her two sisters, one was named Octavia...I...I don't know how they named the two but the name of the mines was Octavia J. Coal Company. Those two sisters owned it.

J: What was your first job in the mines?

LH: Trappin'.

J: Trappin'? Explain to me what trappin' is.

LH: That's openin' the door and let the motors go through and close it back. That keep the air ventilation.

J: Okay.

LH: They had doors in instead of automatic trap door.

J: Now, was that generally the first job somebody would get in the mines would be...

LH: Yeah...yeah. Unless they went in with their parents loadin' coal.

J: um-hum.

LH: They had to be taught to do the work see.

J: Now your father was working at a different mines?

LH: Right, he worked at the Fortune Coal Company.

J: Okay. How efficient was that system of ventilation?

LH: Well, uh....your air you have an intake...intake and output which the more the air come up the main line and go back down the air course. Circulation.

J: Um-hum.

LH: So to put air to the different parts of the section of the mine, you'd have to close this door to...to divide the air.

J: Um-hum.

LH: That's what the...that's what the trappers are for. Then it would be too hot on the section for people you know, couldn't get enough air to breath right, but the ventilation is different now, than what it then...they built an overcast later on and went over top and all that gap and ??????????????? and had automatic trap doors.

J: Um-hum.

LH: I don't think they even have trap doors now, all they got now is ventilation over top...over cast and things like that. They was doin' that way before I came out of the mine.

J: So it pumps the air continuously through...

LH: Yeah. With a fan outside the air divided...they have the ventilation divided now. Lot...a lot different than what it used to be.

J: Okay. And how long did you continue to work in the coal business then?

LH: Well, all together?

J: Um-hum.

LH: I had forty-six years in the coalmines.

J: Is that right?

LH: Um-hum. I came out in uh...seventy-three. March, last of March, seventy-three.

J: Okay. Did you stay working around in the Stone area or did you move around?

LH: yeah. Well, now, right there, I worked there from twenty-seven to thirty-five and then I left there and came down to Stone and got a job at Fortune Coal Company. I guess I worked for four...for thirty-five about three years, thirty-five, eight...

J: Um-hum.

LH: Then the tipple went...burnt down, then I went back to Octavia Jay course now I wasn't trappin' then, now, I was runnin' the motor now and breakin' and runnin' the motor, stuff like that, breakin' on motor and runnin' motor all together. Started runnin' a motor for Octavia J. for four thirty five and then I went back up there, I got a stayed up there about probably a year and a half and they called me back uh...Eastern Coal Company had it then and I went back and when I went up there, Eastern Coal Company had it but in '40 went out and leased it and then I came back down after Easter, then the tipple burnt down then I got called back to one of them mines at number 7. This time I worked at number three. That was a mines out of Stone. So they called me to number seven I went to work at number seven so I can tell you work there then well, say off and on.

J: Um-hum.

LH: I'd leave sometime and come back...off and on for about until I retired. I left there one tie and went to Sycamore Coal Company up Sycamore here uh...West Virginia, worked there about...bout two months and they wanted me back up at Stone so at least they wanted me back so I went back to my old job.

J: Was...was this owned by different companies?

LH: Yeah.

J: Run by different people?

LH: Sycamore...Cinderella Coal Company. Sycamore Coal Company we called it. That's comin' out of Williamson mine up the holler there. I worked there about...bout two months I guess. I went back to...back to Kentucky. Any way, I stayed there until I retired then. Want to retire, you now, sometimes mines was laid off.

J: Um-hum.

LH: I was laid of up there let's see, in fifty-eight I was laid off and then I went back, I came to Williamson and worked for the water for the city of Williamson water department for four years. I went back up there in sixty-two and stayed there until I retired.

J: When did you begin uh...your work with the church or let me put it this way, did you grow up in the church?

LH: Yeah, well, we all grew up in church.

J: And when did you become...when did you start preachin'?

LH: In December, forty-three. Second Sunday, December forty-three.

J: And what church was that then?

LH: That was Sharon Baptist Church where I preached my first sermon at. That was at ????????? I don't know whether you ever been in Kentucky or not. That's the last place up a holler.

J: Was preachin' somethin' you'd been wantin' to do for awhile or...

LH: Well, uh...I always thought I'd be, all my life I would be a preacher but I think I didn't really want to do it.

J: You did 't want to do it?

LH: I didn't want to do it. Now, as I was a kid I...I...I did all that and was a child, in fact, I grew up, well I kind of got out of it but so I ran from keepin' preachin' about ten years before I started.

J: You ran from it huh?

LH: After the Lord called me. (laughing)

J: You got the call but it was still ten more years before you..

LH: Before I started.

J: Before you answered the call?

LH: Yeah. That's right.

J: And why was that?

LH: I don't know. I just don't want to do it. And uh...and this church, I was called there September, 1950. That was my first church. My first church was in Pikeville. I started pastorin' over Pikeville in uh...about forty, about firty...forty-eight I think it was.

J: Okay.

LH: forty-four. About forty-five. Started pastorin' in Pikeville.

J: And then you've been at Mount Caramel since 1950?

LH: Ever since 1950.

J: Okay. Do you hold services or have you consistently held services there every week or would it be every other week?

LH: Twiced a month. First and third Sunday of each month. For the simple reason most I've always pastored two churches.

J: Un-hun.

LH: I pastored at Peace and Goodwill at Chattaroy. I went down there in fifty-six. I had....stayed with them from fifty-six to seventy-six.

J: Preaching every other week?

LH: Yeah. Um-hum. THey's..they's down there where every uh...twiced a month, each one see, you know, first and third is one and second and fourth is the other one.

J: Un-hun.

LH: Every other Sunday at each church. Two Sundays a month each place.

J: This questions probably gonna sound a little simple minded but just for...for the record, what role or what function do you see the church playing in...in a black community and uh...just for the individual folks who are involved? What's the most important function the church performs?

LH: You mean uh...now, at the particular time?

J: Um-hum.

LH: Oh, well the uh....the uh...main issue and the top priority of a church is to win its soul. That's...that's...that's...that's number one because that is a great commission is to win...win soul uh...and as leaders and ministers of the gospel, that's uh...I..our dispensered duty is to...is to tell the world or let the world see Jesus in the lives of the believers that know him. Now that's top priority but sometimes, I think they got to get them mixed up in they..they go after that's the work of the church.

J: Um-hum.

LH: The church work is the auxiliary of things that takes the function to make a church work.

J: Okay.

LH: The work of the church is the...save the soul.

J: Now what are some of the auxiliary functions of the church?

LH: Well, you got like, you got different departments.(loud noise) Sunday school department, which is educational department of church and then you come on down to the mission which all the christians...all missionary worker but you have the mission circulate that carries on the...our president, so forth and so on you know and then you have uh...different kind of clubs like uh...the men club, somethin' like that and then uh...you have sometime, women's auxiliary club, pastors aid club, different kind of auxiliaries and then you have your choir.

J: Un-hun.

LH: But all these make to make up the entire different department of the church. All of them the headin' of the church show.

J: What kind of programs does the, for instance, the missionary circle or the missionary function get involved in in the church?

LH: Oh, well they involved i uh...spreadin' the good new you now and uh...comin' together uh...they have they uh...day that they sponsor programs, but the mission program whatever, and then they go from there and send their mission work. Well, mission is the whole bit of the church is mission see.

J: Um-hum.

LH: And uh...

J: Is that by mission you mean, like spreadin' the word?

LH: Yah.

J: Okay.

LH: And goin' out and helpin' people who need to be helped. That's all about, well that's christianity see. And uh..really go out, lot of people think mission is to go out and clean peoples houses and thing like they but they are suppose to help anybody that's in need see. Got to the rescue of anybody that's in need. But that...that is the chief business of the church. Cause all of it come from the aid and the mission, well, the whole religious uh...thing is mission. Is doin' what Christ has told us to do, see.

J: So the mission would include feedin' shut ins and...

LH: Right.

J: Or taking people to the doctor or...

LH: Whatever will come necessary will be done.

J: Okay. Um-hum.

J: Now you mentioned the choir, does uh...does music play a big role in say, your particular church?

LH: Yeah...yeah...yeah...yeah. Yeah, our choir is uh...one of the uh...big roles in your...in your worship service.

J: Um-hum.

LH: The choir sing songs and that's what called like a kick off.

J: Kick off?

LH: Yeah. (laughing) They sang and then after they sang, probably, two or three numbers, whatever, then they have you uh...prayer and uh...scription all like that and then go into morning worship service. Then after you preach, the choir sings again. Maybe couple three numbers after...after the sermon.

J: Un-hun.

LH: Choir takes over when, we open up on worship service after the devotion is service from the deacon see, that's the first thing we have. All don't have the same routine of services, but I based on that, the deacon had the devotional service, then the deacon of the choir sings and the scription prayer and then from there on, the choir sings and then turn the pulpit and we...preacher takes over then and the choir sings and we go from that scripture lesson and prayer then into morning uh...sermon.

J: Has that been the formula for ever since you've been there or has it changed...

LH: Down from...down from the years. Sometime we make a little...little different change in...in...in the order of service.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Ever now and then we'll change somethin' different way but that was the regular mostly routine way we carry on.

J: Do you ever invite a guest preacher?

LH: Oh yeah. We have different programs and like uh...church anniversaries and uh...different days for uh....church anniversary then also we have uh...but the choir get a program or the deacon get a program. Men's day program.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Things like that. And uh...missionary society get a program then we have guest speakers come in for different occasions like that plus a revival meetings. Revival service.

J: How often do you, would you say you have revival meetin's? Once a year or so?

LH: Well, sometimes once a year or sometimes once every other year.

J: And are they held at the church?

LH: No. That's ?????? they go Monday through to Friday night.

J: Un-hun. But are they held at the...in the church building?

LH: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah...yeah.

J: Okay.

LH: Yeah. Revivalists come in and do the preachin'. All the churches cooperate together see, during that week. On the average.

J: So for instance, Mount Caramel would get together with two or three other churches in the area?

LH: Well, we sponsored but the other churches come in and help and assist you know.

J: What are some of the other churches?

LH: Well, on the Kentucky side, only have one more church over there uh...Stone...First Baptist Stone. Reverend ?????? got that church. And I'm this pastor. That's all we have in Kentucky now. Uh...all the churches up there are gone..have ceased to operate. In Williamson, we have you want some names of churches there?

J: Sure.

LH: Well we have Second ?????, that's in the Williamson area and uh...Logan Street First Baptist, and brother Shiloh Baptist, those are the three that worked...those are the ones that works with us.

J: Um-hum.

LH: That's in the Williamson area.

J: What is the address of your church just for the record?

LH: 649, I mean over in Kentucky? Or just Huddy Kentucky?

J: Mount...Mount Caramel?

LH: Just Huddy Kentucky.

J: Okay. You mentioned a church anniversary, uh...what...what's the program...what would a typical program of a church anniversary be?

LH: Well that, in that we have the uh...the history of the church and say, if they've been...how many years the church had been established see and we come into how many years. forty years. Fifty years. Sixty years and have the history of the church and we have mornin' service and an evenin' service and uh...sometimes, might get the history of the church in and uh...that's what we call a church anniversary. So many year. EAch year, like, marriage anniversary or whatever.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Each year we have a church anniversary and then later on, once a year, they usually give a pastor anniversary which uh...they recognize the pastor and they give him like an appreciation day for the pastor.

J: So that would be on the anniversary of every year that you've been there for instance, they'd have an anniversary service?

LH: Yeah. Un-hun. Once a year yeah. Let's see now, the one can tell you about _________________________________________. On East fourth avenue see. Now, Williamson, I've been there thirteen years. That's 649, East Fourth Avenue.

J: Um-hum. Mr. Curry was mentionin' gospel or spiritual singing conventions,

LH: Uh, well now, we have the Tug River and Pond Creek sing convention in which I been the president for over here since 1947. And still the president and we sing from different churches for each choir. THat made up out of choirs and we sing on the fifth Sunday from church to church. Now, last year ????????????????????? lives with me at Huddy.

J: Un-hun.

LH: So, that's Mount Caramel. Now this fifth Sunday, which will be next month, they'll be at the Lobata uh...that's down...you know where Lobata is don't you?

J: Un-hun.

LH: It would be...it would be there this fifth Sunday.

J: So all the choirs from five churches gather at one place and sing is that...or from different churches?

LH: Un-hun.

J: Okay.

LH: Un-hun.

J: And that's the Tug River and Pond Crek singin' convention?

LH: Singin' convention. Right. I'm president. And Lobata is the new ????? Baptist Church.

J: Tell me something about your...the singin' groups that Mr. Curry participated in and you were the manager of. That's real interesting to me.

LH: The Golden Trumpet Quartet. We sung uh...religious songs and we'd run a program for different churches and uh...uh...sung...well, we didn't sing the music, this...like the vocal singin' and I...well, one time, the Silvertone Four, I was a leader in that. I was the uh...I sung first soprano.

J: Un-hun. And what was that group called?

LH: Silvertone Four.

J: Silvertone Four.

LH: But we were from Kentucky and then we came over here and got with Brother Curry and we had...that went down and we...we organized which was the Golden Trumpet. And I became the manager of that group uh...for a number of years. Well, in fact, I stayed with them, I first started manager, I wudn't ...wudn't in the minister then I started preachin' and then after I started pastorin', uh...I resigned from that position.

J: So they were formed then, approximately when? THe Golden Trumpets? When would that have been?

LH: I don't know, about..that had to be, let's see, it was in it was...it was in the early forties. It was in the early forties. About...later thirty-eight, thirty-nine. Early forties. Somewhere around there about early forties.

J: But before that, you were with the Silvertone Four?

LH: Right.

J: Who were some of the other people involved with the Silvertone Four? I assumed it changed, probably, over the years.

LH: Yeah. One boy sung with us, Ted Collinsbury and uh...let's see, Clarence Kiterman was an original and uh...oh I...Charlie Chambers. William Burns and myself. Those...those..those was the Silvertone four.

J: Okay. And you sang without musical accompaniment?

LH: Yes. Sir. No music.

J: Okay. Now, with the Silvertone Four and the Golden Trumpets, you performed at various radio stations around the area.

LH: OH, yeah.

J: Okay.

LH: Yeah.

J: Uh...

LH: We use to broadcast from Williamson every...every Sunday mornin'.

J: HOw did you get that started? How did you hook up with the uh...say the Williamson radio station?

LH: I don't recall just how we got with them but we got in that program someway. We would sing every Sunday...every Sunday mornin' for quite awhile.But that was the Golden Trumpets, now. The Silvertone Four didn't sing there. That was after we got this other group, but now, most of that group came over here with this group see uh...there was uh...Oneil Cosby came over here and Clarence Kitermen came over here and then we had more join us came in later. I guess James told you about Lucious Buckland and all those body. I guess James told you then didn't he?

J: He mentioned a few names. I don't believe he mentioned Lucious Buckland.

LH: Buckland was a tenor for us and and the boy named Ben Roberts with us and uh...Charles Bridey and...and let's see rest of that bunch.

J: Now, did you also perform at uh...oh let me see, at church meetings and...and church meetings and weddings and uh...affairs like that also?

LH: Oh yeah....oh yeah...oh yeah. Yeah. Business business is all we do. Churches is part of the benefits and weddings and all that. Yeah.

J: How did you travel. Did you have a bus you traveled in?

LH: No. A car.

J: Car pool. Everybody...

LH: Well, they's about five of us all they was see. About four or five sayin' myself, always had a car. Most of the time, drove my car most of the time. We'd get together for...at that time, I was in Kentucky and I'd come over here and practice and rehearse with them see. I'd probably say about once a week and then we'd build a program up for the...comin' Sunday where they had invitation to go sing and then sometime uh...Ben Robison, he had a car, he'd being a group over there to go out on that side and if we'd go over here, I bring them over there see. So, we traveled in our own personal vehicles. Our own personal cars.

J: And...how long did you keep this up?

LH: Oh, after awhile, it has been a number of years. I don't have one year that really...quick. Well some of them left and went to Ohio and them places and that's really broke...broke the group up. But see, we travel all over West Virginia, Virginia, Ohio, various state we ?????? in the program. The different churches, auxiliaries, whatever.

J: Now, when you traveled to the different places, would you stay in private homes in the different towns that you?

LH: Yeah. Back then. Most of the time yeah. We stayed in the private homes or whoever invited you, they'd make room for a place for you to stay see. If you stayed over night see. And then, they would give you a donation. Raised money for you on your expensives see.

J: Um-hun.

LH: And that would help us with our expenses of traveling.

J: Now, when the other fellows left, you said people moved to Ohio and things like that broke up the group. Did they move cause work was no longer available around here or...

LH: Most, that's the reason why. Yeah. Out of work. Like mines goin' out and men bein' cut off you know and then some went different places see. Back then see, like in the um...fifties thair, you know, they was big wack in the mines the mines...lot of mines shut down and all...all these...all these...all these were miners. We all was miners.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Most were miners.

J: So the fifties was slump times then?

LH: Right.

J: Were the mines becoming more and more mechanized at that time? In the 1950's?

LH: Yeah. Um-hum. Yeah. That's why lots of the cut off came on account of that. Uh...more machine kind of become mechanized and in that cut out a lot of common labor, had work see. And...

J: Okay. When you began your...yur preaching career, did you have a uh...a stock of sermons that you would pick from to go in?

LH: No. You had to build them yourself. Get them from the scripture.

J: So you've written all your own sermons over the year?

LH: Most all of them but sometime we uh...have a where we pick up different literature and different sermons of them and we pick out of those different things. Not complete it as it's been written see.

J: Um-hum.

LH: They had one...the press see, and you get alot of good ideas from them but you can't just take it word for word but you...like our teacher told in a seminar was that uh...make a difference where you get it from , what you do with it after you get it uh...you compile together and let the holy script lead you and you pick out what is usable for you. Well, I can use what you can use see.

J: Have you ever gone into the pulpit unprepared with a sermon?

LH: No. I really haven't but I went in there with uh...my mind on some...one and the spirit changes somethin' else. That happens uh....I have a mind...what I thought I was gonna talk about...but the spirit of the Lord changed me in the pulpit and I had to use somethin' else. That happens quite frequently.

J: WHen the spirit changes like that, is it..will it be an instantaneous thing or just be a general sort of uh...gradual guiding you away from topic to another topic?

LH: Well, I'd say that the lord was, through the spirit, was tellin' me that uh...what you had..what you thought what you wanted is not what he wanted you to use and that's why it just left you and he give you somethin' else. In place of that. At that time uh...that you can, as a minister, we study that magnus ????? whatever and we think, and at the time when you just can't get nothin' together and then uh...give...sometimes just get up and go on to bed and the next mornin'...I've done that so many times...get up the next mornin' and open the Bible and their your message right there. That's the Lord see.

J: Un-hun.

LH: And you struggle for hours and hours and nothing seem to connect and then I woke up the next mornin', open my Bible right to it. I mean I turn in the leaves all this...Just go to Bible and thair's your message right there.

J: Now, that's what your supposed to talk about that day?

LH: That's direct from headquarters. (laughter)

J: From your boss huh?

LH: So, without the holy spirit, your message is not in effect anyway unless you let the holy spirit guide you see. Oh you can talk or address or whatever and make plenty to talk but uh...the holy spirit has to be in your message for it be effective. You've got to have...you got to have the Lord, that's all.

J: Have you ever know ministers who...who went into the ministry but you...but hadn't really had the call or didn't feel the spirit that...

LH: Well, some we...sometimes think maybe that they really wasn't called but you got to take they word for it because we can't judge them because Christ says "Judge ye not for the same judgementship to be judged" but, we have our doubts about some...some ministers but they in it for just for they can get out of it or whatever but uh...we have no proof. We can's prove it.

J: Un-hun.

LH: Say if a man come...a person come to you as a pastor, I've ordain...I've ordained the life's of so many preachers under me. I think...I think I'm a pastor now for four preachers under me. I have four...four...four ministers, I'm...????? now and these ministers have uh...licensed them and ordained them to my ad-ministration see.

J: And...and do they serve in the same churches you do?

LH: No. They're all pastors.

J: They have their own churches?

LH: Yeah.

J: Okay.

LH: But I'm still their pastor see. And I've licensed so many and have ordained so many down through the years for forty-six years in the minister this comin' December see so um...any number of preachers have came up under me see.

J: When you began preaching, how's the ?????, did you begin as sort of an apprentice or where you ordained...

LH: Well, no. What we call that is the light sensual preachin' other way's your licensed by the church that you belong to.

J: Um-hum.

LH: You are...they are...you belong to them and that church will license you well now, in doin'...doin' light sensual preachin', he can....he can preach but uh...the pastor, he has to be ordained because in the Missionary Baptist Church the light sensual preachin' he can't...he can't give the communion or the Lord's Supper or he can't give that nor either can he baptize.

J: Can you assist in those programs?

LH: Yeah. Help in them. Those are the two ordains of the church that we observe in the Baptist Church and to be able to do all the things as a pastor then you ...you have to ordain him, he has to be ordained other words like a licensed preacher license under my church. THrough the church I pastor. Well, now, if he's goin' to another church for then my church will call a council and we'll examine him and carry him through the process see if he can defend the doctrine of the Baptist Church.

J: Um-hum.

LH: And then from there, he's ordained for the church that he's called to.

J: So your church ordains him.

LH: Right.

J: Then sends him to the other church.

LH: Right.

J: Okay. Who ordained you?

LH: The church that I...that I...that I belonged to.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Sharon Baptist Church at that time.

J: And who was the pastor?

LH: Reverend A.H. Hunter.

J: What's that name now?

LH: A.H. Hunter.

J: What can you tell me about him?

LH: Born into a great man, great preacher, great leader. He's dead now. I came up under him and well, he guided me and instructed me and helped me with...so much inexperience that he had with people and with pastor's and with God that he told me so many things that....that helped me when I was faith with him. I was able to cope with them because of what I got from him. A lot of things I was confronted with and I wouldn't been able to handle had I not listened to what he had told me comin' down through years see. From his experience and well, we'd read...read and study, that's good but he had the oldest experience from...experience personal experience. Things that he had been confronted with and those things help. That's why I tell them, you know, preachin', if they'll listen, the older preachers can help them and things when your faced with different problems, things like that, you know how to handle them.

J: What was Reverend Hunter's background?

LH: Well, he was a coalminer. A family man. Large family and I think his native home, I think was Virginia and he went back to debt for Virginia but down through the years, he went blind and I served after I was in the minister, I served under him as the Vice Moderator of the Pond Creek District. ?????, Kentucky and which I served under him for I don't know how many years was it. Way until after he uh...completely lost his eye sight. And then I was a Vice Moderator and then he served on the four...at least four...I'd say four years or better after he lost his eye sight and I wouldn't let him give up and I...then they reside maybe one session durin' the association and I took care of all of it.

J: Um-hum..

LH: And then eventually then he...he resigned in my favor so I've been the moderator over there uh..I don't know how many years now.

J: What is your role as moderator?

LH: Well, the moderator is...he's the moderator of the district. All the churches and we come together once a year or twiced a...one of them...association never had....a ???? Association in August and all the churches one together and represent and the moderator presides over all that's invited and all the minister things and pastors or the Executive Board of the District Association. Association come together once a year and we meet and then whatever ????? would be. We'd have preachin' and singin' and stuff like that and all the churches come in with their representation fee. Into the Association.

J: Un-hun.

LH: So I served...I'm the moderator over there at Tug River. That's over here. I'm the vice moderator over here at Tug River. Reverend Hooks is the moderator. You'll probably catch what your doin' checkin' way down Williamson. He pastors the Lone Street First Baptist Church. He can moderator.

J: Long Street?

LH: First Baptist Lone Street.

J: And that's Reverend Hook?

LH: Un-hun. Roosevelt Hooks. So what...what happens there, the each district has a...a association and all the church represented in that association we work together. All...all the churches come together in the association and then we leave here...like from here over here, we go to a...up at Hilltop, outside of Beckley. That's our state convention meets up there see.

J: Okay.

LH: And we meet there once a year and that's in August and then form there to the National Baptist Convention. USA incorporated. So all...all...all that....we all work together. Everybody.

J: Does the National Baptist Convention meet in different places every year?

LH: Yeah.

J: Okay.

LH: Every year. Different cities.

J: What got you all..

LH: New Orleans I think this time.

J: New Orleans? And do you go every year?

LH: Not every year. I didn't go last year. I went year before last.

J: Now at the state conventions and the national conventions, for instance, what sort of business is discussed or what sort of...

LH: Well, the state convention represents in the national convention. All the church from all over the United States represented. Even we got some in Africa that comes and represents in the uh...in the National Baptist Convention. Which is representatives, and leaders, and pastors from everywhere and all they districts uh....meet there in all the churches, on the average, most all the churches are there as representatives see. Delegates to this convention.

J: Um-hum.

LH: NOw, we just come back from...that was last week I was down at Nashville, Tennessee to the congress National Baptist Congress of the Christian education. We was down there all last week and um...I got a real bad cold down there so that's where we were last week. We dedicated a new buildin' for the National Baptist Convention in Nashville last week. I believe it was last Wednesday.

J: NOw, at these, at the conventions, do you discuss doctrinal matters or the course of the church?

LH: NOt...not..not exactly. We have different courses and different classes to go to and seminars and things like that. It teaches...plus preaching and more or less like that. They have different class rooms, different text books whatever.

J: Okay.

LH: ANd we...we have them in districts too, see. I teach class in the...in the congress here. It each my class is mostly made up of the preachers and deacons. It eadh at...well, twice a year. WE have a text book that we teach and each year we have a different book.

J: Un-hun.

LH: And I teach one class and Lowery teach another class and couple more teachers teach different classes and that's the way we do it then, not only that but we do that in the State Convention too. In Christian ????? Education and it's all...it's a process of always tryin' to learn more and uh...about Christ well, the more you learn, better prepared you are to do a better work and greater work for the lord. So it's a continued progress of learnin'. A lot of times, people think they...they learn all they can learn but you continue, you never get too much. You just keep on goin' you see.

J: Um-hum. Is it..am I correct in sayin' then that, for instance the structure of the National Convention is like the state and the regional meeting only on a bigger scale?

LH: THat's right.

J: Okay.

LH: It's just larger. THat's all. Hundreds of oh just, I couldn't give you the number of the amount that they be there for this...just for this came out of it...it's not big as the National Baptist Convention. Over forty thousand there this time for this congress.

J: Now are these all pastors or all...or are they also delegates from the different churches?

LH: BUt all of them are not pastors, these uh..they have a lot of times just lay men or whatever. WE have lay mens there plus the ministers, they have lay men meetings, they have moderators a meeting, they have and then all these pastors meet up. All these is in this body plus you class and thing you take but you have the representative from practically every district throughout the United States plus people that's just go. Just to enjoy the meetings and things.

J: Um-hum.

LH: My wife. She don't hold an office or anything but she..she goes. Other people go like that see.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Both women and men and all goes.

J: Okay.

LH: It's real large...it's just, why, you...you couldn't describe unless you meet one and you have to have a large place that they can meet at. It's just...and then we have even a people out of residents and out of Africa. Some come to us. It belongs to our body.

J: WHen you would attend these state or national conventions, say back in the days of...of legal segregation, did you have any problems findin' accommodations in the different towns or cities?

LH: Excuse me. Yeah. You...they would have representatives at the body there or say...say my home, I could take your four while four, like maybe man or two men, and their wife. THese would go to this house of two men here, one man over there. A different home would take so many.

J: Um-hum.

LH: Cause we couldn't stay at hotels and things back then see. But now, see all that's changed.

J: Um-hum.

LH: And that's where we...that's where we stayed. Even...even in the state convention and the National Baptist Convention too. THat's the way it was.

J: So you depended on private homes bring...taking you in.

LH: Right.

J: NOw when...when people got to the conventions, the state or the nation convention now, even though more commercial facilities are open, will they still stay in private homes?

J: OH, no. Motel.

J: So now...now it's generally...

LH: All hotel.

J: Okay.

LH: But see now from the na...our state convention, we usually go by bus. We take a bus load of delegations from West Virginia Baptist State Convention now, the last few years, we only taken one bus at a time and we took us two bus loads. Not that's not counting people that come in cars and people that come by plane. see. But now, last two or three years, we only taken one bus and uh...our executive secretary, he call ahead and get us reservation for a hotel for say, forty six people on the bus and we get there, we go to the hotel and we already have our place to stay before we get there.

J: Okay.

LH: Before we arrive.

J: EVerybody days in the same...same hotel?

LH: sAme hotel. ANd then other people come in on planes, cars or whatever and lot of them from West Virginia come there and we already have places for them to stay see. Um-hum.

J: Okay. I just have just a couple more questions...

LH: Okay.

J: Uh...personal uh...biography. YOu are married uh..when...when were you married? I think you might have mentioned it but I want to make sure I get it on...

LH: My wife now, we got married January 15, in seventy-two.

J: Okay.

LH: Un-hun.

J: ANd you had been married previous to that?

LH: Oh, Yeah. Um-hum.

J: WHen was that marriage?

LH: That, we was married was forty-six.

J: Okay.

LH: IN October from the marriage that they called me father the eight girls, six boys and two boys are dead.

J: so a total of six...

LH: Fourteen all together.

J: Fourteen all togetherOkay. Rangin' in ages...

LH: Oh, I don't know. (laughing) Worked right on down.

J: Some of these children are form [sic] your second marriage?

LH: Well, yeah, from my. Um-hum. To my wife. I'm stepfather to some of them.

J: Um-hum. Okay.

LH: Some are mine and some are step children. I raised them all. They're all mine. I consider them all mine anyway.

J: And what is...what was your wife's maiden name?

LH: Dillard.

J: Dillard?

LH: Um-hum.

J: Okay.

LH: She had been married before see and she was a Moore.

J: Un-hun. (tape cuts off)

J: That concludes..concludes this interview.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection