Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Dutch Hatfield Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center...Wednesday June 28th, 3:00. The interview is with Dutch Hatfield. Resident of Newtown at the home of Mr. Hatfield.

B: Uh...Mr. Hatfield surely Dutch can't be your real name. What's your real name?

Dutch Hatfield: Well it is. I was uh...when I was borned...they called...my name was Clarence Vance Hatfield. My daddy knowed a man by the name...went by the name of Dutch and he went to calling me Dutch and I never took up no other name but Dutch. And I got married...the first time...see I've been married...this is my second time. Got married the first time in Clarence's name well my wife passed away. Next time I got married in Dutch's name. And if I hadn't I'd a been messed up on social security my wife would you see. See I'd been messed up. I paid social security in as Dutch.

B: Oh my goodness. When were you born?

DH: Where were I born?

B: When were you born and where were you born?

DH: Born in 1912, uh...born at Newtown. It was Meador then. They you know they put post office in.

B: Okay. And you say that your a member of the Hatfield klan...

DH: I'm...

B: can you explain that to me?

DH: Well I'm gonna tell you...I'm the oldest Hatfield that carries the name...I'm the nearest to Ellison Hatfield. I'm the oldest Hatfield that carries the name you know.

B: Okay.

DH: There's some women older than I am but you know I'm the oldest one that carries the name of Hatfield.

B: Right okay.

DH: That's living.

B: Okay. Can you tell me some about your family's history in this area? About Ellison Hatfield and his family?

DH: Ellison Hatfield and his family. Well he got killed before my time you know.

B: Okay.

DH: Yeah, he got killed in...he got killed in eighty-two. Started a feud. Yeah, I was borned and raised here my father was...left me when I was eleven years old. Died when I was eleven years old and I'm the oldest boy in the family. We had kindly a hard time to getting through you know. I went to work in the mines when I was fifteen.

B: What was your father and your mothers names?

DH: My father's name was Louis Wetsel Hatfield. That's L. W. Hatfield's initials. There's a fellow that called me the other day and he seen a name...he's was getting up something and he knowed there Westel(?) but he wanted to know who the L. was. I had to tell him...my mother was Virginia Long...Long Hatfield.

B: Okay. You say your father died when you were eleven?

DH: Yeah, died in twenty-three.

B: Okay. How did he die?

DH: Suppose to been operated on for appendicitis at that time doctors was very...you know didn't have...know too much...well I won't say they didn't know too much knowledge to what they have now. And he died. They operated on him and he didn't live just about three four or five days.

B: Where did they perform the operation?

DH: At Williamson at the old hospital that sit down right behind the uh...right behind...right across the station there depot station. I don't know...I guess it was Memorial. They moved it on up the hill. I guess it's the same hospital yet.

B: Okay. How did the Hatfield family come to this area. What did they tell you about that?

DH: I never hear to much talk about it. When they come in this area I know I head grandma talk about coming in here and moving up here on the rock cliff at old Smith's Hatfield was my grandfathers brother. And he talked right plenty you know like an old fellow would he'd    __ he'd do that about every time he'd say something. suk..suk...my daddy moved onto that rock cliff said he like to starved to death and my mom had to get out and kill the game so we could live. That was her son.

B: Oh okay. What kind of work did your father do?

DH: He was...worked at the mines on...you now this mines started in...back...he worked a little bit at Thacker mines but he started out at Red Jacket mines old Red Jacket. And he worked down there. I worked...started to work there and I started to work there in nineteen forty-seven.

B: So you were fifteen when you went to work?

DH: I said forty-seven I meant twenty-seven.

B: Okay.

DH: I went to work in twenty-seven I quit the mines in forty-seven. I headed back reversed there.

B: Okay. Before we cut the tape on you mentioned going to school. What kind of school did you go to?

DH: Well it was just a school like it is now. They called it you know just a regular school. The man that taught me my first school is living he is a preaching now.

B: Really.

DH: He's a preacher.

B: Oh my goodness.

DH: K. Z. Browning is who was. He taught me my first school and he's...and it was his first school of teaching. And he's a preacher now he's....he's a preaching. Gets around good eighty-nine years old.

B: What kind of desks did you all have in that school? Did you have desks or benches?

DH: Benches when I started nothing but benches nothing but benches. You know old home made benches that's what we had. The old home made benches. An old round stove coal. You had water in and dipped it out with a dipper. No running water in the country then.

B: What kind of lessons did you all have? What kind of school lesson did you have?

DH: Reading, writing, and arithmetic mostly is about all we had you know and quite a bit. I believe you geography was our oh...old time geography after you got up a certain grade. Geography and our history book. Then you had a little English book too. I wish I'd a kept mine.

B: Did you all have to buy your own books?

DH: Yes sir. Yeah, you had to buy your own books right.

B: Where did you all get your school supplies?

DH: We got them where we could. There's a little place in Williamson, Matewan yeah, there be a little place in Matewan.    __ but sometimes to go to Logan to get them. Logan County, Logan town. It use to be that they had to go to Logan to get their groceries. Yeah, you couldn't...there wasn't no grocery store there you had to go to Logan to get your groceries.

B: How did you all get there?

DH: I didn't go now. I'm saying that they use to but I didn't. Just before my time. They went through on horseback. Through the head...through this creek and all running through another creek and down below...

B: Okay. So this is probably in the eighteen hundreds?

DH: Yeah. I'll say eighteen...about nineteen...around nineteen hundred a little better.

B: Okay. What kind of games did you all play when you were school children?

DH: Long town ball. They called it long town, soccer stuff like that you know. Throw the ball at you. You hit the ball run then if they hit you with it you was out. Oh that game...that's all the game we played.

B: Okay. Was that long time ball is that what you said?

DH: Long town.

B: Long town ball, okay.

DH: I'm afraid right....hey when they roads up and down the creek afraid to go out in the road then hit in the creek and then bust you with a wet ball. It was a better time than it is now. Really you it seemed to me like you had a better time than you do now. You now what I mean people enjoyed it more.

B: Now did just the...did just the boys play long town ball or did the girls play?

DH: The girls played to. Then I got bigger I played baseball. I played pretty fast ball I played against Williamson Redbirds.

B: You played against the Williamson Redbirds?

DH: Well I had...now they didn't....I didn't play against the Redbirds...I played against their players. These other fellows go hire them and come and play for them and I played against them. I played against them yeah. Yeah, I played pretty fast ball there was a bunch of them tried out for the big leagues. Some of them went.

B: Oh really? Do you remember any of their names?

DH: You remember Howard Edwards don't you? Well, not Howard Edwards...now what was his name...is his name Howard? Docky Edwards. Do you remember Docky Edwards? He's a manager now in some of the big leagues.

B: I've heard the name.

DH: Yeah, he's still up there.

B: What was your team? Who did you play for?

DH: I played with Newtown.

B: Newtown.

DH: Uh...Newtown and I did play some of Red Jacket, played some of Matewan. You know at different time and different...

B: Okay.

DH: No, this old country place this is....use to be. I lived right down the road there for years. Farmed all that mountain back in there in them hollers. And all the cattle run loose. They had people. Everybody had cattle and the cattle come down this road a picking they...all the cattle run loose. They had hey and all these bottles just like here cattle kept it picked off looked real pretty.

B: Really.

DH: Cattle kept that picked of...it was real pretty. This water was clean, hey, you could drink out of that creek at that time. You know wasn't no...wasn't but two or three houses up here and nothing in it. Yeah, real clean.

B: Hey, you say you went to work in the mines at fifteen what was your first job in the mines?

DH: I went to work in the tipple picking slate.

B: How much did they pay you?

DH: How much did they pay me?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: Three dollars a day.

B: Three dollars a day?

DH: Yeah. Three dollars a day finally went down I went inside and I got went down and I believe it was two forty. Two dollars and forty cents a day.

B: How long did you stay at that job in slate?

DH: I stayed at uh...two year...right around two years then I went in...went in the mines. Though I'd make more money went in a loading coal. I didn't make more money I just had to work a lot harder.

B: And which company did you work for?

DH: Red Jacket. Red Jacket coal company. And I run...I went... Island Creek bought this out I was working for the stores department then. I run a big service station here for them for twelve or fifteen years. And quit that and went...got in those politics. B: So you got into politics what did you do?

DH: Well I started...now I run for justice of peace I got justice of the peace square they call it. Big peace. And uh....but now I want...my grandfather that got killed he was uh...officer he was justice of the peace whenever he got killed. And whenever he got shot when he died. And then his son was justice of the peace too. And then I was justice of the peace too. And run right on down... and then my brother was constable. He used to run for constable you know. My brother was constable here. It was just part of the law. Hatfield's run Matewan here for years. You know that don't you?

B: Yes sir.

DH: Done heard that?

B: Uh...yes sir.

DH: Well that's what I...I always said that we didn't...they didn't run it but you know nobody wasn't craziest enough to take the law in the hands like the Hatfields was some way another.

B: Right.

DH: Yeah, there's was always a Hatfield down there about all the time. Yeah, Ernest Hatfield was there for years. Then I was there for years. And his daddy was there for years. And old man Allen was there for years and just had a Hatfield town I guess is what you'd call it.

B: We heard a saying that they...they said that they use to say in town that to be sheriff you had to be able to whip everybody that'd come into town. Did you ever hear that?

DH: Well now...well I heard that but I...they would whip everybody but everybody was good to me you know. I'll tell you the way I felt I was a elder like man. Whenever I went down there I was way up in age. And they knowed I wouldn't take no junk. And they was afraid of me.

B: Right.

DH: I knowed what...I knowed what was wrong you know you can tell whenever people is afraid of you. I knowed who they they was kindly jublish of me and I treated them all real. They treated me real nice. But they was kindly jublish of me cause I was old they knowed I wouldn't take no foolishness from them. No I...

B: When did you become chief of police down in Matewan?

DH: In January 1974.

B: How did you come to want to be chief of police?

DH: Well I didn't exactly want to be. Uh...I was justice of peace had a little office there in town. Just wasn't doing nothing much. When the council...some of the council come to and ask me if I would take it. They was fine men they was pretty good friends I told them I'd try it. And when I went in they wanted uh...they said something about insurance....putting insurance this that and the other on me or hospitalization. I said there ain't no use in doing that they wait 'til I try out and see if I'm gonna stay but they went ahead and done it anyhow. But I got to where I liked it pretty good you know. You get attached to people and then starting to work much a lot of headaches you have to put up with everybody's troubles you know. But I stayed there about seven or eight year I believe. They was nice people down there in town now always nice to me. Your...Bob McCoy was...Bob McCoy was mayor and I was...

B: Sheriff...

DH: I was the chief Hatfield McCoy...McCoy and Hatfield. Uh... time...Time Magazine come in here come up here and they had me up on the grave yard taking pictures and all over the country talking this way talking that way. And then he went down and got Bob's picture. They made a big time out of us you know in that magazine. You met Bob?

B: Yes...yes I have.

DH: He growed up he look like a great big fellow now. He used to be he wasn't that big.

B: Oh really.

DH: He wasn't' that large. I seen him the other day I talked to him. He wasn't' that large. Not too long ago he wasn't near that large. His wife must be a feeding him good. B: One of the things they used to say about Matewan a long time ago was that it was a...it was a town where there were things to do. I mean in at least for the gentlemen folk of the area. What kind of town was Matewan like when you were a young man?

DH: Matewan was one of the most boomingest...you know prosperous town. It wasn't a country when I was growing up. We had a bus come in this holler ever thirty minutes. And it rode...went out loaded and come back loaded about all the time. Hey you couldn't walk down on the streets there were so bad in tho night hardly. It was really a prosperous town seemed to me like at that time. Yeah, it was...you'd be one...about a good town you know prosperous town it wasn't the country. It was mean...there's a bunch of mean people around here don't get me wrong.

B: What do you mean....when you say mean what do you mean by that?

DH: Just wouldn't take no foolishness. No they wasn't that mean but...you know they're mean everywhere. But you...your talking Bloody Mingo all your life I guess. Well, this is it right up around right up around through here. At one time it was dangerous for strangers to come up here this little town right here.

B: Why was that?

DH: Why they'd whup him...whup him and run him out of town. Yeah, they'd beat up on him and run him out of town. It wouldn't do for a stranger. That he had somebody he knowed with him. Yeah, it used to be rough.

B: Was Matewan the kind of town that people went to town with a pistol strapped on their hip? Was that the kind of town it was?

DH: No, you wasn't allowed to do that. But now most of them had their guns no question about that. I've carried a many of time. I had...be expecting something. Yeah, you just about had to to keep people off of you a lot of times. People pretty bad a lot of people you know. Drinking and this that another. Use to be pretty rough around here. Oh it ain't nothing now compared to what it used to be. All them bad fellows got killed I guess.

B: Time caught up with them.

DH: Yeah. Always somebody just a little worse than you are.

B: You were a school boy when the massacre happened what did you remember hearing abut that?

DH: I never heard too much bout it. Uh...my father was living at that time and I lived out...we lived down the road here and him and old man Tom Mitchell now Tom Mitchell was in the Hatfield and McCoy feud...he fought in it. Now him and old man Tom Mitchell carried high powered rifles and guarded this big main office down here at Red Jacket at that time. They stayed down there at night...yeah, they had them hired to stay there at night.

B: Your father and Tom Mitchell?

DH: Yeah, my father and old man Tom Mitchell. For I remember that very much. Yeah, him and old man Tom Mitchell took care of that. Old man Tom Mitchell he always went by the name of Mitchell but I believe he was a Chambers. But yeah, he was in the Hatfield and McCoy feud and got his hand shot off. All that shot off there. He was climbing up on the McCoy's house and burned it setting it a fire and they shot his hand off and he fell off.

B: What do you remember about him?

DH: Oh Old man Tom is a fine old man. I played ball with his boy's all the time. Me and them played baseball with them. He was but a little bitty fellow. But now...yeah, old man Tom.

B: What do you remember abut people saying stuff about Sid Hatfield? What do you remember hearing about him?

DH: I never heard to much about Sid you know never worried to much abut Sid you know. No more just how he got killed and about when he killed somebody down there you'd hear something abut it. But at that time they was tents set up all down this creek the union had little tents set all up and down his creek. This bottom is full of them.

B: Did you ever go near the tents when you were little?

DH: No I never...my daddy and mother had me go around you know they made us stay at home. But Sid was a great character. Yeah, there was no question about it. Oh he killed several didn't he?

B: That's what we've heard. At least at that shoot out. Did you know of him killing anybody else while he was sheriff?

DH: No not directly but he killed them at different times down there. yeah, he killed several from what I...you know I just rumors you hear around people talking this and talking that. And they's afraid of him. Had to bushwack him.

B: Now was he a relative of yours?

DH: Distant.

B: Distant.

DH: Distant...it was distant. You've been over and seen uh...that old house where my grandfather laid out in where them two chimney's sit's up over on Hardy holler now that...my grandfather that's where they put him in that building.

B: Okay.

DH: Now he got stabbed right across...just across the branch from that. That's where it all happened. Did they show you where they tied them McCoy's boys up down across the river? I've got the pictures of that.

B: You do?

DH: Yeah, and ah...that war...that battle was uncalled for but there was just one wouldn't give into the other.

B: Do you remember...you were probably a little tiny boy but do you remember anything about the flu epidemic?

DH: Lordy....

B: That followed World War II?

DH: Yes...yes I had it.

B: You did?

DH: Yeah, why me and my whole family my daddy and I don't have any kids it wasn't' that time. We went on up a point up here and went in the mountain went way back in the mountain. It was cool that day. Come back home my daddy got sick went up got in the bed and was week. He got his kids a laying on the bed and singing to him. Yeah, I remember it and he had the flu and pneumonia and all of us had the flu and pneumonia at the same time. And here everybody in Newtown had it but one or two old people. And old people went house to house talking care of people. They did they went around together talking care of people. You know helping. A lot of people passed away during that flu epidemic?

B: Anybody you knew or that were friends with your family?

DH: No not too many in my family but there was a lot of them that did pass away? Died...

B: Do you remember what time of year that hit here was it...

DH: In the fall...it was in the fall of the year. yeah, I remember it was cool when we went back in that mountain. Yeah, I remember the...that flu I got a little bit better and they took me up to my uncle's.. he lived up old man Ellison's place...the old home place. I went up there 'til they all got better and I had a brother that couldn't' talk they well he's was a little fellow you know but he had to learn to talk he goes (starts grunting) just grunts. And buddy he learned to talk when that flu was supposed to start.

B: He did.

DH: And he had to talk or starve to death. But he learnt to talk during the flu.

B: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

DH: Three and three. One of them passed away. A brother next to me died about three years ago. The meanest.

B: Really. The mean one.

DH: Oh he's mean now there wasn't no question about it. I always said he wasn't...he's gone but there ain't no used in saying he wasn't but he was.

B: So your the oldest child?

DH: No, I got a sister older than I am. No, my brother was mean. I got...my youngest brother was mean to though. He's...I believe he's about seventy-two he'd fight you just like that...he'd fight the biggest man ever was.

B: Did your brothers ever get in trouble in Matewan for fighting or anything?

DH: Oh yeah.

B: What would happen to them?

DH: Well they...I don't think...it was all...they always got away from he law some way or another but they got on the underpass down there and threw big rocks off onto my brother's car. Yeah, they was really into it pretty heavy down there a time or two. They got into it over on Pigeon Creek my younger brother and me and my other brother had to go down and take care of that. You had to go fight for them. Yeah, you have to look after them....the younger ones you know. Yea my daddy died when I was eleven years old. I had..I drove a car. I drove a T model Ford they called it then. I drove that car and I had three brothers I learnt to cut hair I had to cut all their hair I'd have...well in about thirty, twenty-five, thirty years ago I cut in a barber shop and never went to school in my life. Well, I never didn't cut in a barber shop but the man run a barber shop up there and I'd haul in their whenever he wasn't there you know. I cut hair you had...you had to do it all. You know I had to act as that man of the house.

B: So your mother never remarried?

DH: Huh?

B: Did your mother ever remarry?

DH: No, never did remarried. No, she was young too. But around forty maybe he died I believe. I believe he died in forty-three.

B: Did uh...did you ever remember anything about World War I? What did you remember bout that?

DH: World War I?

B: Um-hum. Did you remember it being when it was over did you ever see any soldiers?

DH: I was drafted time or two is that the one...I guess...

B: World War II?

DH: Yeah.

B: Did you serve?

DH: No, I...they always...the referred me here at the mines you know I was a you know a pretty good man about...I was operating machinery doing this and that and doing another. And they referred me all the time. You know got me out of it. Every time they call my wife they'd go get six months three months preferment and I paid out of it that away. Then I had some children to I got four boys no girls.

B: How old were you when you got married the first time?

DH: Twenty-two.

B: Twenty-two. Who did you marry?

DH: Married Neva King. N.E.V.A. Neva King. She's from up around Mercer County around all compreston there around    __

B: How did you all meet?

DH: I'll have to tell something on myself now won't I?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: I got in trouble up here and I left the country on account of the law. I won't tell what in all I done. Left and went up in that part of the country and met her. So I went up there and stayed up there with my uncle he live out there in that area. One of the law my mother's brother. Went out and stayed with him got acquainted with her finally she moved down here and wasn't a little while me and her hitched then.

B: Well how...

DH: I tried to whup my uncle is what started most of it I got...I was drinking and tried to whup my uncle he was constable. He wouldn't let me try it but I told him pull his son over but he wouldn't do it. I don't know what else I done. I use to drink a little bit. Not a braggin' about it though I don't mean it that away. But it's something a fellow ought to be sorry for it what he's done for like the things like that any how.

B: Days kind of places in town were there for...to go and drink and stuff like...

DH: Moonshine places. Go to this house and get you a little pint of moonshine or house up the road there just moonshine places is all it was. That or you couldn't buy no beer at that time. You just moonshining. No...now there wasn't no liquor stores in the country then. Finally come in Matewan across the river and Buskirks boys they really done the business though.

B: Now did they make moonshine? Is that what the Buskirk boys is that what you...

DH: No...no it was regular just like coming in now. You know come in. Now these fellows here made moonshine up in here all for years and years. I belonged in a little holler up here and my mother lived about that holler up beside of the bank. And they poured mash you know that they make that moonshine they...and they'd poured barrels and boxes out up that holler 'til it run out the holler.

B: Oh my goodness. Do you know who made it up there?

DH: Oh yeah, everybody nearly every house...pretty thick...them that didn't make it helped the other fellow... all the time see. They always worked together with it....moonshine.

B: Now I may be wrong cause this is somebody that uh...the other guy that's down here with me interviewed. I think it was Jim Backus. Did you ever know him?

DH: Old man Jim Backus...I know Jim Backus...

B: Make moonshine did you?

DH: Yes sir, Jim Backus made moonshine himself.

B: He made the best moonshine around here.

DH: Well now he always bragged on his own. Everybody does that though.

B: Okay.

DH: Yeah, Jim Backus made moonshine. Sure did.

B: Now did you test the moonshine that you drank before you drank it? What was...

DH: Did I test it?

B: Yeah.

DH: Why no, a fellow drink anything he can get a hold of just about it. But we all would try to get it at certain places you know. Well, he's clean with it or something other like that.

B: Now, were most of the steels down this way were they made out of copper or...

DH: Copper steel yeah...I never was right up against one but I've seen them at a distance. Yeah, it's cooper steel. Boy they made a bunch of it up here. A lot of them went to jail over it to penitentiary.

B: Did uh...did revenuer come through her much trying to catch the people.

DH: Revenue...revenue men? Yeah, oh yeah, they caught them every once in a while. Yeah, they come in and tore a few of them up here and there.

B: Did any uh...here in the history books you hear people well they were revenue men that disappeared did anything ever happen to the revenue men that came through here that you knew of?

DH: No, I don't believe. Now before...five years before my time they didn't come in here to often. What they...they didn't go out. I've heard that before...before you know I knowed anything I've heard men talk revenue men come in here he didn't leave out. Oh uh...old Devil Anse he'd be good though to them but men like that come in I don't believe they left.

B: What did people say about Devil Anse when...

DH: Oh he...he was a good man. He just good to be as long you treated him right...you know acted right.

B: Did you ever meet him? Did you ever see him?

DH: No, I...I've been around him. But I was little I didn't know ...didn't know nothing. I went over to his house a time or two.    __ an ox roast one time on Island Creek. You been to that... you've been to his statue?

B: Um-hum. What do you remember uh....about him? What did you remember since you were little? Is there anything that stands out in your mind?

DH: I don't remember too much about it. Don't remember too much about it. Yeah, it's...

B: Anybody in your family uh...play any instruments? Were any of your people musical did they play banjo or...

DH: Uh...my younger brother played a French Harp but that's was all. No...not in my immediate family well now the Hatfield's of the...much of them around yeah...it was good musician or something. The old man...old man Allen Hatfield he could play...several of them play a banjo for half a day on...sitting on his porch and he's a real old man too. I guess you've heard of him ain't ya?

B: Um-hum.

DH: Old man Allen and his boy. You ever talked to his boy Estill?

B: Not yet. Well we never did. I mean I've heard the name but is he still living?

DH: Yeah, Lawrence over there his oldest boy is over there. Yeah, old man    __ and his brother. Well that now...I'm talking about    __ Hatfield's children. Albert was old    __ brother and    __ was old    __ boy. And there's a bunch of them over there and I don't think any of them was whole brothers I think. Different ones from a different family.

B: Now was    __ the one that had forty-seven children?

DH: Yeah, old    __ I had uncle    __ to named after. Then I had an uncle that fought in the Hatfield war and the McCoy he wouldn't go in Kentucky whenever he died. He died in thirty-seven, or thirty-nine I believe. He wouldn't walk...you couldn't get him to go in Kentucky. No he's was afraid...afraid they wanted him over there. But he wouldn't go in Kentucky.

B: What was his name?

DH: Huh?

B: I'm sorry what was his name?

DH: Elliott. I had...my brother was named after him. And he favored him too...they favored each other. One about as mean as the other.

B: Did he ever tell you about what he did...

DH: No he wouldn't talk about. You couldn't get him to talk about it. (starts talking to someone else) Yeah, throw it over the yard Troy. No he wouldn't talk about it. And my grandmother never would talk about it much either. See she lived about thirty-seven thirty-eight, thirty-nine somewhere along there. No you couldn't get... they called him big Ingun. That was Allen you know they called him big Ingun. You couldn't get him to go into Kentucky buddy. We lived in...over in Kentucky a little while my daddy did. He wouldn't come over there and see us.

B: Really.

DH: Couldn't get him over.

B: How long do you think were there bad feelings between the families?

DH: Well I don't know when it happened. I remember Anse and McCoy shook hands and said it was all over with after the field was just about all over right there. That settled it all. Somebody...they tried to claim they shot it out and some of their plays they claim the shot it out. They didn't do it. They shook hands and said... faired it over you know. But now whenever they said that it was just about over with they'd been ah...somebody might have fell and had a little grudge but I don't believe too much. They married two Hatfield, Hatfield now. Or they did back just after that. Hatfield's and McCoy's. Somebody wanted me to get a Hatfield and McCoy been married you know a man and a wife one a McCoy and one a Hatfield wanted to interview for something I tried to get a fellow up the road here and buddy they wouldn't do it.

B: Really.

DH: No, they wouldn't do it I don't know why. I never did ask them. I...after they turned me down I just hushed I wouldn't say no more. They turned me down flat. But their still up...living up here. That's old Hog Floyd's grandson. I'll show you...you've never seen Hog Floyd's picture have you?

B: No sir.

DH: I'll get it and show it to you before you leave.

B: Okay.

DH: What do you remember hearing about Hog Floyd?

DH Oh I...I went to school next to his dad. Next door to him.

B: Oh really?

DH: Yeah, I used to sit out in the old rocking chair uh...yeah, fine old man. His home is still up there.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah. Yeah, his home's still up there. His grand daughter lived in it.

B: If I uh...ask you some names if you think of something that you want to say about them will you say...I'm gonna ask you some names about some people that I've heard...we've heard different things about them. One I've heard uh...a teacher that I interviewed mentioned Blind Billy Adair. His name was spelled Adair but she said it Adair. What did you know...did you know him?

DH: I've heard it and that's all.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. How about Noah Floyd?

DH: Noah Floyd?

B: Um-hum. I know Noah Floyd's a pretty fair man. He played politics awful strong...you know what I mean. Played politics awful strong. People didn't like him because he played politics so strong. And he just like all the rest of the he bought his way in a lot of time you know. But Noah done a pretty good job. He's a what you call warren...old uh...schools...

B: Superintendent?

DH: Superintendent. Yeah, Noah done a pretty good job I thought. Now he's in for a long time. Buddy he held that for years and years but uh...I don't know whether it all politics or what they just laid in a relation a little bit. Now he done a pretty good job. School done pretty good. It took all the schools out of the country now and put it all on buses. Cost no more now when they had little school houses around.

B: Now when you got involved in politics were you a democrat or republican or an independent?

DH: Well I...both of them. I run on republican ticket one time and got beat. My daddy was a republican but I wasn't exactly republicans and he got me turned over there and running on a republican ticket. I run and I liked to run come a little bit a winning. Next time I run on a democrat ticket and won. And uh... but it don't make no difference it's just who you are around here and who you shouldn't match up with. That's the way politics is...who you can match up with. Then I run with the sheriff's that won now he's my cousin. His mother and my daddy were brother's and sisters. Tom Chafins...you heard talk of him haven't you?

B: Right.

DH: Well now me and him is cousins. Yeah, he's a Chafins but his mother was a Hatfield my aunt. Now that brother of mine run at the same time he he got constable.

B: What kind...I'm sorry go ahead.

DH: Are you in    __ up with the politics in this country the way they've been a going? I mean the way they've been treating them in uh...courts?

B: Well here lately I've just what I've read in the paper.

DH: Oh buddy it's been pretty rough.

B: That's what I hear.

DH: Yeah...yeah, it's been pretty rough hey that's stuff been a going on for years and years and years. But now they're just now kindly a catching up with them. They got three or four in the pen now see.

B: That's one of the terms that I've heard that they use was flower fund.

DH: Yeah.

B: Did you ever hear about the flower fund?

DH: Yeah, I've paid a little dab into it.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah, I...well now I wouldn't say it's the flower fund but I give this fellow sheriff now Gerald Chafins I give him fifty dollars for another time he run for commissioner I donated him fifty dollars that wasn't...it wasn't exactly flower money. But at one time here whenever Harry Artis was oh I don't' know whether Harry's here. Yeah, they had me to go along with these four old men that worked on the road for four, five, six dollars a day you had to pay so much of that into the flower fund or you didn't have no job. And now...well Johnny Owens is they man that went and collect it the fellow that's in the pen now. He went buy and collect it. He was uh...oh they called him some kind of a man then. Hatchet man. He was a hatchet man he'd go buy and them fellows had to pay him. Let me tell you something school use to be the same way. Whenever Noah Floyd was in there. The teachers had to donate to.

B: Did was it called the flower fund for the teachers?

Dh: I don't know what...I don't know what they called it but now I know that the teachers had to shell out if they held a job. That's been years ago...long time ago. They sure did.

B: How did they stop that do you know?

DH: I don't know honey. I wasn't playing with politics then. I wouldn't fool with it. I just fooled with it in 1970...I believe I went in. No, '72 I believe when I got into it. And I didn't do it. Now yeah, they all had to donate and anybody that had a little job with them. Maybe get    __ come across if they didn't' they didn't have no job with them. Sure was that away. Why they'd pay you right on election ground too. Yeah. We had election down at Matewan and I was chief down there and Bob was running back and I don't know I believe some...I don't remember who was running again maybe John. Old man John. And John was out there in that old big brown coat and he was buying everything he could buy. And you couldn't arrest him he'd say, "well I owed that man or something" you know. I felt like arresting him. John McCoy you never did meet him he died a few days ago and buried him last week I believe.

B: That was the first person that John my colleague interviewed was John McCoy right before he died we interviewed him.

DH: Is that right?

B: Um-hum.

DH: He's a good old...he's a good fellow.

B: He was buying votes huh?

DH: Why yeah, and he lost money there and I hollered for his boy to come get him. He left a little laying out there you know what I mean. I thought I'd arrest him but then I said he'd say well I owed that man. You know if you ain't got nothing to stand on it gets you in trouble. And uh...so Huntington Herald paper, I believe it was Herald any way, Huntington paper they called up there and wanted this and that done and I guess I've talked too much. I told them this that and other and oh they put the awful    __ up and I didn't tell them all that. They put the awfullest    __ in the paper and Bob was mayor. Bob come across that lot that morning I was standing over there at the jail he said you've got more nerve than any feller in this country. I said what's a matter Bob. He said look at that paper. John got mad at me. Oh John got mad he wouldn't speak to me for several days.

B: Really.

DH: It was about John you know. Hey I stood there and watched them. But I couldn't swear that he was doing it I just seen him hand ten dollars...every fellow get ten dollars to vote for him. Bob...Bob come across the lot a hollering where John could hear him. John was over there across the street. John said you got... Bob said you got more never than any feller in this country. Oh John got mad at me for a few days. He pretty soon got over it.

B: What other kind of elections were there uh...vote buying cases that you know of?

DH: They've bought them in every election just about it. You know about all elections. I don't say that they did in the last year or so but they...it had been a while back. Whenever...they all do that you take Pike County where a feller told me that sheriff over there has got four hundred no twelve hundred and some deputies under him. You know he...not paid deputies you just get what you make. And that there is everyone of them is a voting for him. Whenever he goes to vote he just might as well say he's got it. Oh elections have been awful dirty. And which they continue to and you can't stop them...they ain't no question about it. There's people in that you couldn't stop I don't care what you'd do. It's not only that...no only in Mingo County it's in all of them.

B: What kind of colorful incidents? Were there ever any colorful incidents while you were police chief in Matewan did you ever have to break up any fights or anybody ever try to shoot anybody or anything while you were police chief down there?

DH: Well, they tried to shoot me.

B: Who was that?

DH: I arrested...I...well I got after a feller...I got another feller take my stuff on the street and a feller went by drunk in a car I stopped this feller and told him take me down the road I want to get that feller out of that car he's drunk. I want...I got in the truck with him and went down and it ain't like it is everywhere there used to be an old crossing that went up over hill you know and when I crossed across it a feller pulled up beside me and I said lay that thing over there get it off the road or something I don't know just what it is. And he didn't pay me no mind. He just kept driving. Well we just cut across...I jumped out of this truck and run. I run across you know he's just driving slow and I caught...I got up with him and I reached in the car and throwed it up in park and they just locked whenever I pulled my hand out I pulled it down in neutral it went to rolling back down that hill. Well I reached back in to put it back in park he reached to get his gun. He reached to get his gun I had to...I had to battle him. Yeah, I pulled him out of that car and let him go with out...didn't charge him with a gun. But I kept his gun. I never give him his gun back. I sold his gun oh not too many years ago. But they had a girl or his grand children not his grand children his wives children girls. Said who arrested him I said...they told him I did. Said well he said these fellers down here are afraid of him. They told me that to. I said no I ain't afraid of nobody. I ain't go sense enough to be afraid of anybody I said I come down here to take his job and I said I can't do and let somebody run over top of me. I said you can't be afraid. I said I might get killed but don't get me wrong but now you can get a little excited scared too I said I ain't that big of a coward but I you know them girls I just charged him for being drunk like I got him for being drunk a gun and everything I just charged him a little drunk charge. Well I knowed the man...raised up here with him and went to school with him. Telling people if he's afraid    __ when they do that your fixing yourself up for trouble. If you...if he'd tell me that I was afraid of him you know somebody come and tell me that I was afraid of him I'd be up to kill him the first time I met him. I'd think he's gonna kill me you know. Nobody never did say it... say that 'til I arrested him that time. He never did fool with me no more though never would come around no more.

B: Really.

DH: No he was uh...wanting to be...he shot all...he shot everything off in the mantle in his house just before he left home. Oh he tried to be bad you know.

B: So you were sheriff during the...I mean you were police chief during the flood there in Matewan?

DH: Yeah. That if you can get ahold of it I never could get a hold of it by Houston Burgraff. You know Houston?

B: Um-hum.

DH: Powderman?

B: I've heard his name.

DH: Now Houston Burgraff got pictures of all descriptions that me and him went around there and took picture of that all over the place and pictures of me and him and just different things. And he's got all them pictures. He told me he'd give them to me and that's been a long time ago. But now I never have been able to get them. I don't know whether he lied to me or he's always told me he had them but he just can't think to bring them. But Houston's got all them pictures. He lived over at Buskirk across the river there. But he's got all them pictures over there. He said he had now I haven't never seen them. But we took pictures of all that. Oh it was a rough time then. Man them fellers trying to get this take that you just about had to shoot things out of their hands.

B: Oh really.

DH: Yeah, it was rough. Bob McCoy come...Bob come he...he did pull his gun and shoot...shot something down there one time I believe. He had a big old gun on him. He pulled that gun...yeah, you...hey you just abut had to run them out of everything. People come in there and get what ever they wanted.

B: Was it people from around here or?

DH: Yeah, and up the river...Kentucky people. Kentucky we have more trouble out of Kentucky than anybody else. That's who I put in jail all the time down there. The    __ fool with. Yeah, Kentucky...Kentucky's dry you see and come over here and get drunk. It was dry at that time. Yes...yeah, they was running them streets and you couldn't keep people out and had the streets blocked and they'd run over top of you Lord how mercy that's the awfullest time ever was. Wadded mud to your knees everyday.

B: How long did it take you to get the jail cleaned out? Well did they jail go under water?

DH: Oh it was...it was long...several days you just couldn't do nothing with it. Several days and remodeled it out now after it got flooded. I had a bunch of marijuana and stuff worshed off by it.

B: Was it your evidence against somebody?

DH: No, I got it...people got it from off the board and just throwed it in the desk there you know in the drawers and it worshed off. Yeah, I got...I got a marijuana pipe out there in the building now. You ever see one?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: I got a lot of stuff takin' off a fella. Yeah, it's...

B: Did you have many drunk arrest when you police chief?

DH: Oh yeah. Yes sir.

B: What kind of drugs did you catch them with?

DH: Well I...usually just the marijuana mostly what we got here. About all we got here. And I got a little...a few pills off a feller. But I don't he went to far with the pill part of it. Yeah, I got a feller down there one day he told me he wasn't a going. I said, "yes you are going" and I reached and got that little gun out of the holster I said," yeah you're going". Yes, sir. And after I got it out I didn't draw it on him I just pulled it out like I...he went on with me and I got the marijuana and a bunch of pills off of him...but he's dead now. I guess that stuff killed him he wasn't too old of a man either. (Tape cuts off) Well, he got run to the pen now over it. She'll tell you that to...it's pitiful but I always liked the boy you know they just got into that stuff and it got ahold of him and they couldn't release. Yes sir...yeah, her brother...I believe his name was Jimmy.

B: I think so. How about another name that we've heard a little bit about but nobody will talk much about is Aunt Carey. Did you ever know who Aunt Carey is?

DH: Oh, Aunt Carey the old colored bootlegged lady.

B: Yeah.

DH: Oh went out to Aunt Carey's many times. Yeah. Lived out on the river bank down by the bank there out next to the river. Aunt Carey the old moonshine lady. Yeah I knowed Aunt Carey.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah. Nobody won't talk about it right. She's sold them whiskey. That's all I can tell you now which she uh...she was a bootlegger. She was a chief bootlegger in Matewan buddy what I'd call.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah she's about the chief bootlegger in Matewan. Aunt Carey everybody gonna go out to Aunt Carey's that's what you'd hear. Yeah she was a chief bootlegger.

B: What kind of place did she run? Did you go..

DH: It's in a dwelling house...in her home.

B: Okay.

DH: Yeah, going out to Aunt Carey's.

B: Now we've heard...have some of the younger men say that they heard their father say that she had some girls there?

DH: Now not to my knownin's. Now I never stayed to long just go out and get...but now she was a chief bootlegger. Well she probably did have girls there. They's a bunch there all the time. Yeah I went to a fellers place one...Buskirk a bootlegger over there and uh...we meet another feller and they had some women there you know and he had colored girls there and this old boy with me he got with them colored girls set her brought him out on his lap and buddy they was about to mob him. I had to get him out of there. Yeah. That old boy's dead too. I don't know what the name of that place was. It was over across the river there and it's been so long I...they used to have a Blue Goose over there. I guess you've heard of it?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: Huh?

B: Yes. How long ago that they had the Blue Goose over there?

DH: Oh that there's been sixty it never been sixty-six...around sixty years ago or a little better.

B: Okay.

DH: Around the neighborhood of sixty years. It's been a long time. Had an old bridge up there right above Matewan you walked across that bridge. Yeah I've been there many a time too.

B: Now what did it mean to be a bootlegger? What time era was that. Was it in the twenties when liquor was illegal or...

DH: Well now I don't know when liquor was illegalized and sold it you know by the first time it was legalized it come in the Blue Goose over there in Kentucky. I never will forget that. First name was Sweepstakes. We'd all go get that bottle of Sweepstakes. And uh...I don't' remember when it but that was when that Blue Goose was in there. That must have been fifty-five or sixty it's been sixty years ago. And it was legaled in Kentucky before it was over here. I mean the liquor was at that time it moved into Kentucky. We all crossed that bridge and get in Kentucky.

B: How old did you have to be to buy it or did you sneak it?

DH: I don't know if they had any age on it or not. I guess they did but I was always old enough.

B: How old were you when you started buying it?

DH: Well I bought moonshine by the time I was fifteen and on up. When I was fifteen they couldn't tell whether I was fifteen or twenty-five you know I was pretty good size.

DH: Amusement down there in town ain't they?

B: They're trying to get a museum started.

DH: Museum that's what I said museum.

B: In a couple of years yeah.

DH: Yeah that's what I'm saying. Jack Hatfield got a lot of stuff for them. Well I mean a lot of stuff he give them.

B: Now were there ever any uh...prostitutes that you knew of when you were a young man in Matewan?

DH: Yes. I knowed of them but for me knowing directly I didn't you know I've heard talk of the boys...men would tell this and this and you know you just hear...but I never was...I never was that typed of a feller. Like I said I am a good man now don't get me wrong I was a good feller. I'd drink and there was a lot of thing that I didn't do. I didn't fool with no dope but whiskey but I'm sorry that I done that after I got older. But I didn't I don't reckon I hurt anybody...killed anybody or harmed anybody.

B: The reason why we are asking is we're trying to nail down whether there was a house or if it was something that was run on an individual basis you know if there were prostitutes if there was uh...house that they lived in or there was you know it was just one on one.

DH: Yeah I understand. No I...I don't believe there is.

B: You hear them. You know sometimes when there would be a town close to the railroad that people would stop off. I guess you've heard about Keystone?

DH: Yeah been through it. Went up through it the other day.

B: Okay.

DH: Yeah, Keystone, Norfolk, Kimble's all that. Yeah I law down here and got arrested up there. I didn't get arrested the cops stopped I didn't pay no attention to no light coming through Keystone and didn't stop.

B: Did you tell him who you were?

DH: Yeah.

B: What did he say?

DH: He just laughed about it. I told him I was sorry I didn't actually I didn't see it you know. But I knowed he was gonna get me whenever I seen him take off. I knowed he was gonna get me.

B: One of the questions that we're asking is uh...asking people some of the stores that they remember in town in some of the things that uh...we've been asking about particular are uh...trying to find out you know what kind of things were sold in different stores. Say in Leckie's Drug Store what kind of stuff did they sell. Did they have a soda fountain or things like that? What do you remember about going into Matewan to the different stores?

DH: Well Matewan is just about like the town it is anywhere right now. They had soda fountains like they do now. Yeah they had in Leckie Drug...every place didn't have it maybe certain spots like that. The other fellers couldn't afford it you see. Yeah, Leckies was right off the top they had nice drug store there and a lunch a little lunch place you know. For I went in there for different times. Yeah Leckies had a fine nice little place at that time. It's been a long time ago but it was real nice.

B: How about Schaeffer Brothers did you ever....

DH: Yeah oh Schaeffer Brother I remember Schaeffer Brothers. Kirk worked for them for years...That Kirk took that store over then. Yeah Schaeffer Brother had a fine store there.

B: What do you remember about uh...Dewey Hatfield?

DH: Who?

B: Dewey Hatfield?

DH: Oh, my buddy Dewey?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: Yeah I remember Dewey real well. Yeah I used to trade with him. I ran a store...I run a store...a little store up here a time or two. Traded with Dewey. Dewey wouldn't...Dewey was a hustler of a man and his wife done the work.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah, his wife is still living.

B: I interviewed her.

DH: You did?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: Well now she's a fine lady. I guess she fine yet for that part of the term maybe her minds a little...she's way up in age. She's a lot older than I am.

B: Yeah.

DH: Yeah now Dewey run a pool room there for years and years. And he shot her in the store at that time. See he shot her in the store there in town. Right in his pool room.

B: Do you know what it was over?

DH: No Ernest...I don't know directly...you heard of Ernest didn't you?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: Well now I was there I'd help hold inquest over him. I was law whenever he got killed there. And uh...but Ernest...trying to tell...Ernest tried to take over. Ernest was trying to take over I believe I mean Dewey you couldn't fool with Dewey. Dewey wouldn't say much to you but...now his wife done all his work made Dewey what he was. I guess you've heard talk about that. Somebody else told you that.

B: About Mrs. Hatfield...well all they ever said was that she worked very hard...

DH: She worked hey she done it all. She run a big store...a big uh...wholesale job I call it you know where they sold feed and just have candies and everything like these little stores. You go down there an buy something she's have to go get it. He'd set there. Or he'd set there and never get up. She done all the work. Now don't get me wrong I liked Dewey but I'm not talking about him but now he's was a fine feller. Here comes an ambulance.

B: How about Charlie Kiser? What did you ever...

DH: Yeah, I know Charlie Kiser real well. Charlie was fine feller in his ways. But everything was for Charlie and nobody else.

B: Oh ok. I heard uh...

DH: Yeah he's in a hurry buddy.

B: One little bit of research we heard about him was that he was a mean little guy. Was that what...

DH: Charlie was mean. Hey all these fellers up in that age was mean. Yeah any of them was mean you couldn't say...couldn't point out say one was mean without saying the other well really Dewey Hatfield was mean. Ernest Ward was mean...mean as they made 'em.

B: Dewey didn't' kill Ernest when he shot him did he?

DH: No...no...no he didn't kill him. No there was a feller come in here playing gambling with Ernest and uh...Ernest    __ had to abuse you. You know if he thinks he can. And uh...they said Ernest just slapped him around all day...slapped him around they come in...that's when they had suitcase full of money. And I believe out of Mississippi or some other state and Ernest slapped him around and he went down there. You know David Starr? You've heard of him haven't you?

B: Yeah I've heard of him.

DH: Well he went down to his trailer and they go into it and that feller shot him. But now Ernest would have killed him if he could of. The way it all happened Ernest was a shooting at him whenever he killed Ernest. You could tell see there was like here's a hall down through here Ernest was back in this room here and Ernest was left handed he couldn't get around there to shoot that feller. Ernest you can't bend your hand around but so far. And Ernest couldn't get to him and that feller he stuck his head around there and that feller killed him. I went down there you know and checked ...money all over the place. Now that was sceem the way I look at it. Now I'm not telling you this for facts but David Starr got all that money I believe. He...whenever we got there he had left. That was his trailer. Man never was prosecuted for it though. But, David must have got all that money. I don't know that man had to take him out...well Ernest shot the man had to take him to the hospital. Ernest's wife is still down Hatfield Bottom.

B: Now when you worked in the mines I assumed you joined the union. Did you join the union?

DH Um-hum.

B: Did you do it because you had to or did you want to? What did you think about....

DH: Well the union's alright it's good for poor people. But people where they wouldn't uphold uh...their own jobs you know what I mean they quit...they put people...they put these big operators out of work cause thought the union would back them up you know couldn't fire them. That's the reason why the union went down. They put Red Jacket out a bit. Red Jacket went broke. You know it didn't go exactly broke but it went down. While I was working in Red Jacket stores and they's in the stores paid their pay off there a lot of times. There where they made the money in the stores. I guess it did. Red Jacket was a fine company...but men just laid down on them wouldn't try to produce...wasn't trying to do anything.

B: Did you go to union meeting much when you worked?

DH: Oh yeah...yeah I went to union meetings...we had a feller killed here in the union. Feller on the hill that used...man loaded coal and then we had a check    __ and they checked it out there and they had a check    __ see. And we had a feller Oaks(?) out checking this and him and superintendent I mean general managers brother got into it uh...shot I believe he shot Ernest...shot Ernest...Cook it was Cook. And he was of a few days...well stood well instead of him a going on he come right back up there and Oaks was still there. And they got into it again and Oaks(?) killed him. Our check was well you know a union check way I said our but I wasn't union then...but Oaks killed him. Never spent a day over it. Yeah we had a time...I'll tell you what me and Sid something then they meant business.

B: Um-hum.

DH: Huh.

B: Um-hum.

DH: I told some of them whenever they had this strike you heard about Massey this big...had that big to do down here about seventy ...whenever Massey fought the union so bad. I said now it will take them twenty-five years to pick me out five good men and stop every bit of that. I said...like you...

B: Uh-huh.

DH: Yeah I could pick me out five or six good men and stop every bit of that...and have no trouble. Men won't...men just hide around you just do that you got to be brave and you got to stand up to us you know and maybe tell a man something you got to mean what you say and say what you mean.

B: What uh...what kind of things did yo all talk about at union meetings back then? What kind of things did you all talk about or were they secret or...

DH: Well you had to have a password to get in.

B: Oh really? What was the password?

DH: I don't remember but you had to have a password to get in. Yeah, you had to have a password to get in. They didn't let anybody in. They just talked about the role in business you know. But they didn't' let anybody in. That was the company people you know they didn't belong they wasn't' allowed in at all. Just union people was all that was allowed in there. You had to come....you had to bring that password to get in there. And they knowed everybody to you know. Yeah they had a man standing the door...great big man. he stand he's stand there.

B: Did they ever bring any outside organizers in? Did anybody from the out...bigger union come?

DH: No, hunt-uh. I went to the store department got to organizing it when I got to organizing it I took on vacation and left went up Princeton stayed around a couple of weeks. When I come back they'd done got it organized. They done whipped two or three of the women that worked there....outside women. Some of them union men wives came up and whipped them women. Whipped every women that worked there in the store.

B: Who whipped them?

DH: The union mens wives...some of the women. I come back and they done organized and they got or bargaining for a contract and oh buddy we had a time. Yeah I had to get in on that.

B: What do you remember about the great depression? What stands out in your mind about that time?

DH: Hoover depression?

B: Um-hum.

DH: We called it Hoover depression here.

B: Is that what you called it?

DH: Hoover depression. Yeah, I remember Hoover depression. Oh, it was tight here then buddy you...it was rough yeah we worked sometime one day a week. I have worked one day ever two weeks at the mines. That's how much we worked. And then if you didn't raise something to eat you didn't' have nothing to eat. That's the way it was. Then they...I'd work all day for...I just you know a young man. I'd work all day here maybe for some man here digging off some of these hills to farm to get him to go with me to get a bag of flower. You know they was giving away flower down there to certain spots. I'd work all day just to get him to bring a bag of flour home. I'd work all day to get him to just bring a bag of flour. I've done that many a time. Then I worked on the WPA they called it. We Pittle Around I guess that's what. We scraped the sides of these banks off at that time. And we didn't get nothing for it you just got something to eat. Yeah scraped the sides of the hills off all along these roads pick it up wheeled it across and put it over the creek bank. Yeah buddy rough times then.

B: How about the C.C.C. Camps were there any of those you know...

DH: Yeah, there were around here but I never did...I never was hooked up with them. My...I signed up one time aiming to go to them whenever I was younger then. But I backed out I wouldn't go. Yeah they had some around there. (speaking to someone - Hello there) The C.C.C. well that helped the poor people out you know that was their board for the C.C.C. Camps. It helped their families out. Rough times. Rough...rough times.

B: At these pool hauls did you all play for money like in Dewey Hatfield's place?

DH: I never was no pool man...I never would play pool much. But now they did play pool for money. Yeah they did play pool for money I...they'd put up so much each man. My uncle that's all he done. He was constable drove a bus...had a bus line from here to Williamson was my daddy's youngest brother. And he played pool all the time.

B: You say....what bus line did he work for?

DH: He owned it. It was just...I don't know what the man called it. He owned the bus line from out of here plum into Williamson and back. That's this river up and down the river.

B: How much did he charge people to ride the bus?

DH: Buddy I believe it was about sixty cents or seventy cents for Williamson and back. Or to Williamson it wasn't very much. Very little. Usually he rode from Red Jacket to Matewan for ten cents. And that bus was stuffed crowded all the time. Now you can't find a bus.

B: Uh-huh that's true. You say you've been out of Matewan a few times in your life, where did you go when you left this area?

DH: Oh, I didn't stay out I went out and back. I went to California on that Hatfield and McCoy feud show that time. you see that?

B: Oh on the family feud show?

DH: Family Feud yeah. I was in that.

B: Oh really? How'd that go? What did you do?

DH: Well, we...it was just like...Richard Dawson fixed it up. They give us all guns you know. You didn't see it?

B: Uh-huh no I didn't. How long ago was it?

DH: Seventy-eight or seventy-nine I believe. Yeah we had uh... they give us all guns they was ten of us. Ten on each side. We had five back up fellows on the...there was five standing with guns and there was five down here with guns. And we's all sitting there ...standing there with guns. Went on just like Family Feud done but we...the back didn't do nothing they just kindly you know just playing. Oh it...yeah it was pretty nice. I was kindly scared to ride in an airplane.

B: Uh-huh. Was that the first time you'd been on a airplane?

DH: First time.

B: First time.

DH: That was the first time. Yeah it...yeah we had a good time they paid all expenses and I got eleven hundred and twenty dollars out of it I believe.

B: Uh-huh. So your side won.

DH: We won the money and they...and they won the game. I don't know how that worked but that's the way it turned out. Now they give us all the same. They divided up and give us all the same you know the throwed it in and give us all the same. Yeah that there old uh...Jimmy oh what's his name? Well any how he's with the McCoy's he's the one that worked all this about us going out there. He's up for that big money you know. So and he like one point a getting it one time. And he cried. Yeah he cried buddy. Yes sir he cried. They had a hog on there too to represent you know where they got into it over these hogs. That big white hog Lord he's about that long about that high. He had more sense than we did the hog did. We got...Richard go down there and lie down with that hog. Had him tied down there Richard go down and lay down and talk to it.

B: Oh really?

DH: Yeah. Then he got me and old man Bo Roberts he's dead now. He's with the McCoy's. Me and him got down there and got ahold of that hog got us into it you know with that hog just playing you know argued fussing over that hog was working and pulling on that hog oh we had a good time there. Bo me and him went together and come back together you know playing with that...we just we had a lot of fun. Yeah that was the furtherest ever I was away from home.

B: Uh-huh. Where else have you gone?

DH: Oh I've been here and been up in Delaware, Dover all through right through Washington and all around. You know just driving. Then I went to the Smokies. And around here and down in Ohio and down that away. Several time Cincinnati ball game.

B: Are you a baseball fan?

DH: Yes...no not now. I don't...I don't know everybody I don't see like I do. But one I belong to church and things you once liked you don't care no more about them no more. If you don't that's right. I don't care nothing about a ball game no more. I used oh I'd play all day. But you know I just don't care nothing about them no more. But I just but now I've got some grandchildren that play. They get me running once in a while but I'd go down there and talk to fellers but I never pay no attention to what's going on. They play in these little leagues you know.

B: What church do you belong to?

DH: Church of God. Church of God. Yeah...

B: How did you come to join the church?

DH: Well I just got uh...I...my wife she was going to church now I'd take her up by the church and just let her in and just go on. And I don't know how come me to go in. But before that I'll tell you what I was working for the Island Creek stores down here I though...I started having a heart attack two or three times. I'd go to the doctor he said he couldn't find nothing. And these would happen every few days. I just think I wasn't gonna make it. And didn't find a thing wrong with me. And so I just maybe I guess...I don't know...you belong to church?

B: I did when I was little.

DH: You did?

B: Um-hum.

DH: What church?

B: Church of God.

DH: Did you?

B: Um-hum.

DH: Well now the conviction will set you up. You know you can get set up in different ways with conviction. And I believe that's what was working on me and I finally one night went into church and that was it. When I went into church why I didn't get out.

B: How long ago was that?

DH: That was in nineteen hundred and forty-nine. Forty years ago. Little over forty years. It was in April forty-nine. And that's whenever I quit drinking I didn't drink no more. I smoked a little bit I didn't smoke no more. That I just set it all aside. I believe in cleaning up. Whenever you do right do right.

B: Now what did you do down at that Island Creek store you said what?

DH: Well I was...well I've got a little bit of all of it. I was truck driver...I was butcher, and I was...then I run the service station there for about twelve years. Big service station they had about five employees running it. Well I done a little bit of all of it.

B: How'd ya come to do some butchering? When did you do that?

DH: Well there's a store i uh...I could do anything. I always said if you can do something then I can do a little bit of it. It didn't take me long to learn. I always you know take ahold of anything. But yeah, I done a little bit of everything. Then I was receiving clerk and I done this that and other down there. Yeah they put me on everything doing this and doing that. I quit the mines in 1947 and went down there. Stayed with...down...well stayed with the store department. '74 I left and went to Matewan. Yeah jack of all trades and good at none.

B: Lets see now.

DH: When I was...you can get them big ones just sit it down here and tape it but it doesn't tape it as good as that does though?

B: No.

DH: Huh?

B: No not really...

DH: That's what I figured that's a good one on account of these...

B: Microphones?

DH: Microphones...You get paid for doing this?

B: Yes sir. I got...I get paid for the whole summers work. That's what I get paid to do.

DH: And make a...gives you a grade too.

B: Um-hum.

DH: Well that's good. Kill two birds with one stone.

B: Right. Uh...what did you uh...who did you drive a truck for?

DH: I didn't get what you said.

B: You said you were a truck driver, who did you drive the truck for?

DH: I drove the store departments. Yeah whenever I was over at the store department. Yeah, the store department. Then I...I was in...I hauled coal with these trucks on the road here in '57. Yeah I hauled coal from Island Creek to haul to Red Jacket in '57. I had a truck of my own. I did a little bit of everything.

B: How big were the trucks were they...

DH: They wasn't big like this they's just you know wasn't no just single axle what it was. Double duel wheels on the back that was all. I think I've hauled as high as ten ton but these trucks haul as much as 30, 35 tons. Could haul about 10 ton would get all the end of this creek all the way up the head of another holler for five dollars.

B: Did you say five dollars?

DH: Yeah, fifty cents a ton.

B: Fifty cent a ton. When you were working in the mines did you get paid by the ton when you were...

DH: No and I loaded coal in the mines...I loaded coal in the mines to get loaded two and a half and three ton cars. For forty and fifty cents a car...that was a car. So your loading a cut of coal for about fifteen cents. That's 40, 50 cents a car is what I got ...what I was getting then. Then in if you got in a dry place you'd get 40 cents and if you get in a wet place you got 10 cents more. That's the way it worked.

B: When you say a dry place or a wet place what did that mean? The condition of the mine?

DH: That means if there was a water hole...there was water in the mines see if you's going down grade like you had water in there you'd have to shovel it out of that water? That made it hard. Yeah, you got ten cents difference in a water hole and a dry place. B: About how many cars could you load in a shift?

DH: I have loaded as high as twelve. That's as fer as I went I believe twelve. Uh...I'm gonna tell you a little story I had a uncle my mother's brother. May not suit in this tape but we'll tell it anyway.

B: Okay.

DH: Uh...I went in there with him the first day I loaded eight and we getting 50 cents a car then...'fore we left and he loaded eighteen the old man loaded eighteen. He was an elderly man. And the next day I went in hey I couldn't hardly could get in the next day I was so sore. I loaded for and he loaded twenty.

B: Oh my goodness.

DH: Now he could load that coal up. Oh, he could load that coal goodness. He loaded sixteen, eighteen, twenty everyday.

B: Now these were two and a half three tons cars you said?

DH: Two and a half three ton cars yeah.

B: And did you get paid in script or did you get paid in...

DH: Well, you got paid in money if you had any left after you drawed the script. You go down there and you get script to trade you know there at the store. You get that Red Jacket script bigger part of the time you didn't draw. Had a od on it an over draft. Yeah, it had over draft...red over draft...they put it in red. Yeah then they just...you know you got debt maybe you owe them a little bit to them and they'd only allow you a dollar today a dollar tomorrow or something that's the way the allowance. I make more in one month now than I've made in two or three years then.

B: Really?

DH: Huh?

B: Really you've make more in a month now than you did then...in a...in a year?

DH: Well lets see I done good if I made 30, 40, if I made 15, 20, and 25 dollars a month there in the depression well hey I do...I make more now than I did in two or three years. I don't make it now but that's what I draw with a pay check you know. Social security and everything...yeah I do pretty good. But now some of these fellers make a lot of money now. I've got a boy I believe makes forty-five hundred dollars a month.

B: Did you have to quit school when your father died? Is that when you...did you leave school when your father died?

DH: No I went to school now I wasn't old enough to work. I went on to school as much as I could and we farmed and my mother worshed on a worsh board for a living. We had a feller that had a saw mill out here and she worshed with them every week. I believe she got three dollars a week for worshing for them. Man they had...they had loads and loads of clothes. She got three dollars a week for worshing them maybe two or three more people. Then us boys would help you know as much as we could. And farmed...we farmed every bit of ground that we could. Yeah that's pretty rough. As quick as I got old enough I went to work.

B: Another thing that's come up since we've been doing interviews I've talked to Mary Ward and she said that her father belonged to the Klu-Klux-Klan. That there was a...

DH: They come in here at one time.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah.

B: Did you ever know anybody that was in the klan or?

DH: Not directly but I know they set up...now there'd be some... they called them mad women here and there you know caused a lot families a lot of trouble. Maybe little children the Klu-Klux-Klan would set up switches on their porches and tell them what they was gonna do. Yes sir. They set things in order. You know when he wanted you to straighten up he'd the baby sitter would switch the door to let them know what they was gonna do.

B: Now what kind of people would they leave switches for?

DH: People that you know that was abusive you know and didn't do right or maybe didn't treat their family right. They would let their family down or something or another. They wanted people to do right. They done some do good work and they done some dirty work lets put it that away. Yeah I was here I remember the Klu-Klux-Klan. I think I've seen them a time or two. They don't let nobody know who they are. No they dress in that white. They won't let nobody...some feller say I belong to the Klu-Klux-Klan you couldn't believe that. They never let anybody know who they was.

B: What kind of dirty work did you say...what kind of stuff would go on that was not so good?

DH: You mean what they'd jump on?

B: Uh-huh.

DH: Well somebody that just wasn't a doing the right thing with their family you know. Get down and out you know what I mean. Being mean with their family and not taking care of their family. They'd get right on them. Yeah they'd get...they'd done some good work and they'd down some dirty work. Yeah I remember the Klul-Klux-Klan. People was afraid of them to.

B: Really.

DH: Yeah.

B: Was there ever any uh...cross burnings or anything like that?

DH: I've heard of it but I don't know just where it was at. I've heard of it. Lets see now where was it. They burnt something here somewhere in a big I don't know where was that at? Yeah they done that around here two, three, or four times. Yeah I remember them talking about them burning...been several years ago. Yeah buddy. Whenever they burn one around you'd better be careful.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah. They done it for purpose they advertised what gonna take place. They advertised.

B: Was there ever any uh...racial problems that the klan got involved in or?

DH: You mean black and white?

B: Um-hum.

DH: No they always got a long here pretty good but I...I used to play...I didn't ball direct with him but we had a feller well I can't think of his name now. He come Piedmont that's back in Mercer County down here to play ball with us and he hated a negro Lord how mercy he hated a niger worse than any man I seen. He'd be going on the street and knock them off the street. Oh he'd go...he could fight too. Ernest Ward was a prize fighter. He whupped Ernest Ward to    __

B: Really?

DH: Yeah hey let Ernest...hey stood there and let Ernest pull off his coat. He sure done that...and but now he hated...colored people here got to...wouldn't meet him they'd go around him. Walk the street and go around him. Yeah he was bad he hated one. Yeah he hated them. I can't think of his name. He hated a colored feller worse than any feller that I ever seen. He could fight too buddy.

B: We've also uh...heard well we've read in the research that the Italian families that came to this area had it kind of rough at first. What do you remember was the ever any prejudice against the Italian families when you were growing up?

DH: No they...they had kindly a set on a side line Italian camp or colored camp they had them sit on the sides you know. They sit a side that might have bent the way they were talking about. But they all had them sit in a certain place. Certain camp. See we've got a Italy Camp down here called...it's a colored camp. We have a colored camp over there. Used to be there wasn't no colored over there. There's a few white people over there now. Used to be no colored people over there. Then they had up the holler above that big store down there. They uh...uh...Italian people lived long up there all a certain row you know. I lived right up in it sometime. Yeah there was always good people to me...that's the only thing... but they used to order them get them in here. Red Jacket did years ago. Transport them Spaniards, the Spanish people. Came here to work in the mines get them in here. We had a old big...we called it a Spaniard camp down here. Uh...the Spaniards didn't have no wives and they had four of five or six staying in one house. Boy you couldn't hear they'd gamble and you couldn't hear couldn't tell what they's talking about. (Babbles) And we lived just below them. Us kids come up there...I was just a little thing. Come up there and boy they'd....you hear (Babbles) and they gambled all the time. But I...Red Jacket used to transport them in here you know. And work them in the mines. But now they paid them I don't know what they paid them but they used to transport them in here to work in the mines. There was a bunch of them come up here one time I was coming down the road on a big    __ one night and I heard something coming down the road just like horses you know they were running. Here went them Spanish fellers was run by me pow pow hear somebody shooting here the bullets flew through that sycamore tree you know. I laid down there and got out of there some...I tried to get out of the way. And they was running the Spaniards out Newtown. They didn't allow anybody up here hardly you know. And they run them by me...well I just come on home and next day uh... friend of mine I went to school with he was after them. He was the feller that was after them. And uh...but he stayed at the place where that old big long wood gate stood up about that high and one of them jumped that gate went down where he stayed. Was afraid to go on you know he went out there where the old...and there he went hold of there that Spanish feller was he had to bring him down the road. He had to bring him down the road well he wouldn't come by himself. And he come down the road I had to run them others off and leave. Yeah he laughed telling me about it. Say you live up next to Washington?

B: Yes sir.

DH: I come from    __ down through that way one time been about three years ago, four...about three years ago I guess. Buddy hey now I never seen such storm and since I've been here buddy hey there was trailers blowed twisted on the road. And here we come down through there and I was scared to death. I didn't know what to do. That boy of mine was with me he was driving but now there was trailers twister on the road all long up there. Does it do that pretty often?

B: In the summer time it does.

DH: Well this here was a snow storm.

B: Oh in the snow...oh yeah.

DH: This was kindly a blizzard like.

B: Oh yeah.

DH: You know snow and slick too. Buddy they...it was twisted throwed around everywhere.

B: Oh yeah...snow oh yeah we...

DH: And you couldn't see a    __ I's at uh...over next to that Air Force base. And you couldn't see over there and we run around there a little bit I's afraid to start the boy wanted to come. We got started man it blowed just twister trailers wasn't nothing but trailers you know them old big trailers wend gets them pretty much. I didn't...that made me that much scared. We come around Washington through Washington that day.

B: Well I uh...one more question that I can think of for you. How did you all celebrate holidays when you were a child like 4th of July, and Christmas and things like that?

DH: Oh uh...my daddy was one of the worst to celebrate. Man I was always was when I got older and quit. I remember they had a big 4th of July celebration in Red Jacket they's a giving a big praise away for the man you know had the best excitement or whatever you call it. And there was a feller that build a airplane. Just like and airplane on    __...you didn't see many airplanes then I was a boy. But he built his airplane on his car and drove it up and down the road and my daddy had that old Ford that I was a telling you about me a diving and uh...he let the top back on it. It was a cloth top and put I believe he had four old women old white headed women maybe his mother and another old woman or two here and put them in that car and we had a bob tailed dog that ride...he'd ride anywhere you'd put him on a car and he'd put that dog on that car too. And he dressed up like an old man and drove up and down the rode and he won the praise that year. Now that... hey he was all the time out for that. Had one up here in the bottom one time and just crippled feller was in it they was Hatfield's they was cousins of his old Cap's boys there just...Cap Hatfield's farm right here. And they was grown men and I was just a little bitty stuff like feller and he got me and that them crippled feller run a race my daddy get them...and them crippled feller run a race with me. Well I remember just like...yeah them crippled fellers run a race with me you know. Had everything going on and then they had a big canoe out here about here at the mouth of this holler where the cemetery is. Oh had everything to eat and drink. Every 4th of July there was something going with him.

B: Did you all get ice cream or...

DH: Yeah...yeah we had a little ice cream.

B: Where did you get it from?

DH: You had to go to town Matewan to get it.

B: Really?

DH: My dad hey there's some feller hauled it up through here one time. I don't know who that was...some feller...I had measles all my family had the measles at one time. Lord have mercy    __ is was on the 4th of July and my uncle come up with a five pound bucket five quart bucket or whatever five pound bucket is what it was full of ice cream and we couldn't eat a bite of it none of us we was all so sick. On the 4th of July oh boy. Now we had...that was a bad time.

B: How about Christmas? How did you all celebrate Christmas?

DH: Christmas well we always done pretty good Christmas. My daddy always went out for the children but pretty rough whenever after he passed away we didn't...didn't get like a lot of children got. He went all out for us whenever he was living. Faired real good I can't complain...can't complain faired real good. Yeah, seemed like I got along better than I do now.

B: Was there anything that you wanted to talk about that I haven't ask you about? Did uh...Oh I just thought of one more question. Did you uh...keep dogs when you were younger? Did you hunt or keep...

DH: No my brother-in-law always hunted I didn't...I never did hunt. I squirrel hunted but my brother always hunted all the time. he coon hunted all the time. Now his boy coon hunts now all the time. He give twelve hundred dollars for a dog not too long ago. Coon hunts all the time. Then he goes back in Mercer County and hunts. Up around Princeton around up in there. Yeah and I never did hunt too much. Never did fish too much. Now he liked fishing he was all the time fishing.    __ boy. No I never did...never did follow hunting then. I usually had to work all the time. Never had a chance to. Yeah I never was out of a job but one time in my life.

B: When was that?

DH: When I left here and got in trouble before I got married. Out of a job one time. Always had a job most fellers...most of these feller right here can't keep a job no time. They're always switching from one place to another. When I come back from up there I had to walk in and a man had a whole bunch of men there wanted me to come out tomorrow. They all knowed me you know. I guess I'm about as well known around here as anybody on the creek. Should be though I'm the oldest man. Now I don't know many people all these young people. They all know me but I don't know them. Yeah there young people they get to where they...I don't know them.

B: Now is your family kin to any of the uh...Hatfield's that were sheriffs in McDowell County?

DH: Oh yeah...

B: There's some Hatfield's back in the twenties and thirties.

DH: Sure they lived....they was raised right up here on the river.

B: Really?

DH: Yeah.

B: A.B. and McGuinnis.

DH: McGuinnis.

B: Did you know...

DH: They's raised right up here on the just above Matewan.

B: Did you know any of them?

DH: Yeah knowed their children. Yep, I knowed and we used to have A.B. you said.

B: Um-hum. A. B. or something his initials A. something.

DH: Well we got A.B. running for sheriff over in Pike County this time.

B: Oh, Okay.

DH: And we uh...oh Greenway Hatfield used to be sheriff here for so long in this...in this county. Yeah him and my daddy big buddies. See they's republicans that's why they were big buddies. My daddy stayed right in their with him.

B: This seems like it would be a it was a democratic area. What did it mean to be a republican? What would make a man republican?

DH: Well it was republican for years and years and years and just turned over the democrat now they can't get it switched back. They can't get it switched back now. It switched over not...oh been several years ago it flipped over. Yeah, now my uncle he was constable he was...he was republican he won it on a republican ticket. State constable. He's state constable about eight...eight years. Yeah buddy.

B: Well I thank you for talking to me this after noon and I think I'll go ahead...

DH: Well I didn't know too much didn't go to school to much didn't have a chance to go school to much not much of a talker. I talk to much too.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection