Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Rex Harmon Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center. June 29th, Thursday afternoon 3:00. The interview is with Rex Harmon, resident of Newtown, at his home. Mr. Harmon, my first question is, uh...what is your full name and when were you born?

Rex Harmon: My full name is Leonard Rex Harmon.

B: Okay.

RH: I was borned in Newtown, West Virginia. April 29th, 1916.

B: 1916. Has Newtown always been called Newtown?

RH: Yeah, I believe it's been called Newtown, as I remember. Yes.

B: Okay. And who are your parents?

RH: My parents was Milton Harmon. My mother's name is Tiana(?) Adkins Harmon.

B: Okay. Would you know when they were born?

RH: My father's born April the 30th, 1887. My mother's born September the 7th, 1894.

B: Were they from this area?

RH: They's born on Pigeon Creek.

B: Okay.

RH: Both of them. And reared over there.

B: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

RH: Me? Four brothers and three sisters.

B: Where did you fit in? Were you the oldest, the youngest?

RH: I'm the oldest son.

B: Do you know how your parents met?

RH: They was raised on the same creek. I think they met in uh...working. An old man, lets see, old man Jake Ferrell had 'em working. They was plowing and hoeing corn and things, and have women there cooking and fixing dinner for them men. My mother helped them cook. That's the first time they ever...they lived on the same creek for years and that's the first time they ever met. And I know...my mother laughing...a mule come off the mountain...my dad before lunch time, in spite of him...he was trying to get some help. And she laughed at it at the time. That's the first time she ever met him. And I guess that's the first get together they ever had.

B: About how old were they? Do you know?

RH: At that time?

B: Uh-huh.

RH: Lets see, my dad was about...he was married in about 1913, I believe, or maybe 12. That made him about twenty-five, and she born in ninety-four. They were about sixteen.

B: Okay.

RH: He was seven years older than her, in fact.

B: Do you know how long they went to school?

RH: My mother went through the eight grade. I think my dad did, too--from what I hear them talk about it.

B: What kind of stories did they tell you when they were growing up?

RH: Well mostly    ___ farming, you know. Both families. And my dad went in the mines as a young man. After that, they was married about 1912 and they moved here in Newtown. That's where they had their first home. Practically all of us was born here...most of the children was born here.

B: Did uh...

RH: My sister Gladys, she born in 1913--19th day of April. Vivian, sister next to her, she was born September the 27th in '15, and I was born in '16.

B: So you say your father worked in the mines?

RH: Yes, three years. Uh-huh.

B: Who did he work for?

RH: He worked for Red Jacket Coal Company most of his life. He was a mine foreman. I'd say forty years or longer. My mother, she's a house keeper in those days.

B: Okay. Do you...did a doctor come help her with the uh...when the babies would be born, or did she have a mid-wife? Do you know?

RH: I think, mid-wives. I think first part of her life, I'd say, I'd say, first four or five (required) mid-wives. Children ...eight of us.

B: Okay. Did your father talk much about the union when you were growing up? Did you hear him talk about that?

RH: Well, yes. He...he believe in organized labor, but he was a foreman. He couldn't say too much, you know. He... uh...company official, he (was) naturally a boss in the mines but, uh... he believed in organized labor. He taught us boys never put ourself out in front, but to always stick by the union 'cause he worked so many long hours for cheap wages for years. And I did, too...practically a long time. I went to work in May the first, in '34, and I was making $4.36 a day.

B: $4.36 a day?

RH: That time, it was long hours. It was so...the clean-up system, it made work...maybe they'd work them eight to twelve, thirteen hours a day, you know. (There was) just no extra money for extra work in that time.

B: Oh, goodness! So your father couldn't join the union or anything because he was a foreman?

RH: Foreman, that's right. Naturally, a foreman didn't belong to the union at that time--just the workers.

B: What did he, uh, tell you about what went on in, say, 1920, 1921? Did he ever tell you about the trouble that was...

RH: I remember...I was five years old in '21. Lived on Island Creek down on what they called by the Conley Branch(?) I remember the militia come in there on the flat cars. Remember airplanes flying over our head. About the first thing I can remember and the chickens were on the floor.    ___ a hawk at that time. It sit around my head, spotting these troops out of course by the time of that strike in twenty-one. My dad work in Logan County at that time loading coal. Mined over there. Just moved from over there at that time. And the first things I can remember about five years old.

B: What did you think about that plane at the time? Do you remember....

RH: Well it was new to me, you know. Just it circle around overhead. A little cub plane, look like, flying overhead. And I seen the troops go by on the flat cars. Sitting on the flat cars... Island Creek.

B: Were you near enough? Did they say anything to you, those troops?

RH: No...no...no...no they just (went) by on the railroad. Old man Cap Hatfield, he was Devil Anse's Hatfield living just above us. I remember, he sort of a wall-eyed type of fellow. He come down by our house. His cow...ours cow picking the pastors at that time in the field, you know, grass. His cow picked along with our cow. He come out in the evening and drive his cow home. And my mother make him cornbread...a bone of cornbread, a little...He eats cornbread and sweet milk. I just can remember him. But he's just above us there on Island Creek.

B: Did you say he was a wall-eyed kind of fellow?

RH: He's had...he's had one eye sort of cockeye. One eye was sort of off, you know.

B: Okay.

RH: I remember...I remember son Bob. He climbed trees beside of our house, getting flying squirrels out and that mess.

B: Oh, really.

RH: I's just a young fellow, he was about ten or twelve years old was than I. That's Cap's son.

B: How much did you know about Cap Hatfield? Did you know who he was at that time? Did you know about the Hatfield and McCoy feud?

RH: He...He was Devil Anse's son, see. Lived here on the Creek on Island Creek, old man ...Devil Anse did for a long time. I think he died there on that creek. I don't remember seeing old man Anse ...Devil Anse, but my father-in-law..Devil Anse practically raised my father-in-law. Devil Anse practically raised him...he's his nephew.

B: Oh, really?

RH: My wife's daddy. And in most pictures, Tom Chafins...he was seen in the pictures on...standing in the door with a gun. But I hear old man Tom talk about them a lot, you know. What a clever man old man Anse was. He didn't like Cap too much. Cap was a ruthless man--you didn't have no principal. Old man Tom told me that. He's died a few...seventy-seven. He was ninety-six, ninety-eight years old when he died. He was Devil Anse's nephew. His ...his father was a sister to Devil Anse's wife.    ___ a brother to him.    ___ Chafin.

B: So you say old man Tom Chafin didn't like Cap Hatfield or...

RH: No he didn't...

B: Devil Anse?

RH: He didn't like his ways. He's just ruthless man, you see; have no principal. He didn't care much about him. He didn't mess with him too much. But old man Anse was a fine man, you see. He was a clever man around his home...good to everybody.    ___ Devil Anse, he like Tom...He could trust him a lot, you know. He just about seventeen years old at that time. He was still in the clan...raised with them. That's her daddy.

B: You say the "clan". (Do) you mean the Hatfield clan?

RH: Right.

B: Right, ok. How about the other clan? DId you ever hear anything about the...

RH: About the McCoys?

B: Uh-huh.

RH: Well my grandfather Adkins told me he lived right below them. Over on, uh...Hardy creek, over here in Kentucky. He raised with those children around there and went to school with them McCoy's. He'd tell me that Alley(?) was the prettiest girl he ever saw.

B: Oh, really?

RH: Roseanna wudn't as pretty as Alley(?) She's one of the first that got into to fooling with Johnsey Hatfield. And he said he'd go up there that burnt down at that killing over there, you know.    ___ there's a place on the chimney rocks where they was shooting up and down the two story building. And one of them McCoy's boy, I think the one that died across that hollow...that    ___ or barn. They shot him by the head...he went across there in that pipe. He got on a-drunk one time. And a guy tried to shoot him sitting down on the ground, drunk. Shot his gun empty and just shot through his clothes. He was dodging, I guess. And be went home and went to bed. That guy went up there and tried to shoot him in the neck and he shot...just turned his head aside and just on the other side of the neck. The last shell he had never did kill him. And he gave my grand dad his clothes he had.

B: Really?

RH: There was    ___, he knew them all when they got out, I guess. Lived on Hardy Hollow, where they haul at that place. He told me about them, you know.

B: What else did your dad tell you about them? Did he tell you anything else about them?

RH: That was my grand daddy.

B: Your grand...oh I'm sorry.

RH: My grandfather Albert Adkins, yes. But that was a terrible time back then, I guess. Then I...I was Justice of Peace of Matewan for fourteen years. And I had office right on the back corner next to the railroad there. Back behind where the post office used to be. Old man Sid and    ___ Clare Overstreet--he married in the Chambers family. He's telling me a lot about that shooting there in Matewan...Baldwin Felts. Even though he stayed(?) my office a lot, he retired. He told me about (how) the shooting started that morning...that evening about the time that train pulled in there. He's just across the street. That's where the heads (?) the corner. And he said that...well he tell me about the shooting started (by) a fellow by the name of Frank Bowman...Bowman, I used to work with in the mines. His dad was still on the railroad tracks, and Frank was a small boy standing by him. And the signal to start shooting, but when his dad raised up on his tip toes. He raised up on his tip toes and the first shot was fired. I think that uh...Sid Hatfield killed maybe Testerman the first shot. And old man Overstreet said that Reece Chambers across the tracks, upstairs--in a room up there, shooting across...down at the Baldwin Felts men. They was from behind barrels, and right close to my office... right on the corner there. And I saw    ___ a-laying on my windows down there in the brick. It's where the shots (had) been hitting on the brick and the windows. And, uh...there was several of them killed there. Right around where my office was. Testerman's store, next...right next door to my office there ...my office was on    ___ seems it run toward the river down the street there and the shooting started. And doctor Smith had a office next door to my office there. One of the guys went back up the street; started running (to) his office to hide. He knocked him out the door with a gallon of some kind of medicine. Some guy walked up and picked him up by the hair of the head and shot his brains out and dropped him in the street, right here. Mr. Overstreet told me all about that. He saw it all, see. See, I don't know whether he had a    ___ in there or not, but he told his seeing things like that happen the shooting started that day.    ___ shooting Sid Hatfield and Testerman and some more guys you know shooting and the Baldwin Felts men. I heard them guys talking about (the shooting) at Overstreets knew a lot about it. He seen it all happen. Old man Reece would    ___ down shooting anybody else.

B: Oh, really?

RH: Reece Chambers. He's cross the river with a rifle. What he told me. He was there when it happened. And Frank Bowman told about his daddy raising up on his tip toes. Tell both was a-standing on the railroad track. His standing beside...he's daddy's little boy. Raised up on his tip toes and the first shot started flying.

B: Really. So, did uh...Mr. Overstreet say that Sid Hatfield shot Testerman?

RH: Well he thought that...he believe it...he thought that's what happen: He had shot Testerman. Just maybe like he shot at somebody and hit Testerman, or something.    ___ run through the store when the first shot was fired. But there was a lot of shooting going on there. Hard telling what happened. It's from all directions, behind barrels and post, hiding behind telephone poles and things like that.    ___, I guess, trying to get out of the way of the shooting, you see.

B: Right. Now the story goes that the Baldwin Felts men were walking back into town from putting furniture out of somebody's house...

RH: They'd been a-putting out of the miners house up what they call the Stony Mountain Coal Company, there, camp. Setting....... setting them out of their houses...company house, you see. Union men.

B: Right.

RH: Houses?

B: Now where was that camp situated?

RH: Oh, it's there above Matewan, here. Lower than North Matewan, crossing over the railroad section.

B: Okay.

RH: That's    ___ they call it Stony Mountain camp now. Well, the mines right below...up on the hill, right below the town.

B: Okay.

RH: The miners camp was there.

B: Did Clare Overstreet ever say anything about what happened to uh...C. E. Lively? Did he ever talk about that Lively fellow?

RH: I don't remember. I remember him mentioning his name. Don't remember--just what    ___ why his name was mentioned. But I can't remember what he said about him.

B: He was the fellow that was supposedly the in-field traitor, The guy that was actually a Baldwin Felts informer.

RH: Yeah, I remember...they ain't mentioned in nothing    ___ mention about that, but I heard his name mentioned a few times.

B: How about when Sid and Ed Chambers got killed up in Welch? What did you ever hear about that?

RH: I heard he went up there for trial. And, uh...the Baldwin Felts men waiting on them there, and they started up the steps (of the) courthouse. Baldwin Felts men started shooting--shot them down on the courthouse steps, there. And I think that maybe, that, uh... Chambers, at that time, was with Testerman's wife. They claim it as a    ___, or something, up there. Just talked, you know. But, uh...he was    ___ with her, at the time, when he got killed.    ___ together there.

B: Okay.

RH: Was named Marcus, maybe, Chambers.

B: Ed Chambers.

RH: Ed, yeah...yeah.

B: His wife was with him, and Sid had married Jessie Testerman by then.

RH: Right.

B: Yeah.

RH: Right.

B: Okay.

RH: There's a couple of women with...with their two men. I just heard told.

B: Let's see. Well, a question, getting back to you, is: Where did you got to school when you were a little boy?

RH: I went to school here at Newtown grade school and went to Matewan High School.

B: What kind of, uh...games did you play when you were a little school boy? Do you remember?

RH: Mostly marbles.

B: Marbles?

RH: And tag--something like that, you know. A game called base. They had no playground equipment in that time, you know.

B: Yeah. How did you play base? What was that?

RH: They would line up, well, seven feet apart (with) four or five in a row. And they make...give a dare run down toward where they'd try to catch them before they got back to their

B: Their place.

RH:    ___ And they had to go on the other side if they get tagged or caught you know. They just call it tag.

B: Okay.

RH: Base game they call it.

B: Did you graduate from high school?

RH: No, I went to third year of high school. (I) dropped out to go in the coal mines--went to work. Back    ___ it was pretty tough, at that time...everybody wanted jobs. If I wait 'til after school was out, why, I'd would got appointed a job see.    ___ I got out school. I went in before the mines. I was eighteen.

B: How many uh...days a week did you work when you first went to work?

RH: Well it's sometime three, sometimes five--anywhere from two to five days a week. We would have days off, sometimes, hardly. Sometimes, I had full five days a week get order or something in from the coal mine.

B: Were they ventilating the mine then, by the time you went to work?

RH: Oh, yeah...yeah, we had no clearance for safety, or anything like that. A lot of guys got killed in the mines by clearance. No clearance.    ___ the coal to close to their cars and things you know. Didn't have much safety at that time.

B: Were there many accidents where you were working?

RH: Oh, yeah; quite often...accidents, yeah.

B: What kind of things would happen?

RH: Well,    ___ must get rolled. Slate fall on your eyes. Things like that, you know. Legs broke and stuff like that. Slate fall killing. Brakemans new clearance in the cars beside the rib of the cars and they no switch throws on the...had to kick them with your feet in all, you know. They get caught a lot of times and get killed. Had no safety. A fellow by the name of Alber Kirk actually was the man that brought safety at the Red Jacket Coal Company mines.

B: Really.

RH: Omar Mining Company cut them over there. He's the man. I'd say that after he brought the safety to Red Jacket.

B: Really.

RH: Got to have to clearance beside the tracks    ___.

B: Was there ever any kind of workman's compensation where a man would get hurt? What would they do?

RH: Well, I don't know, actually. They had their hospitalization. We paid for it. Very little--maybe five, six dollars a month--something like that, for hospitalization. And maybe got a finger caught, only thing they do is pay them, maybe a thousand dollars, something like that. But that was about it.    ___, they would, you know, have the monthly checks come in, nothing like that. Just pay them, maybe, a lump sum for getting a arm cut off, or maybe a finger, lost a limb. That, I remember.

B: How long did you work in the mines?

RH: I worked under ground about thirteen and a half years. Outside (of the shafts) about around three years. I drove a school bus about twenty years.

B: When did you drive the school bus? Do you remember what years you...

RH: I started, let's see, '58. I believe it was '75 when I quit. It's up at 20 years I...that be...let's see, 20 years...that be '81 or was '82. Maybe '82.

B: All right.

RH: I'm was Justice of the Peace from '61 to '75.

B: Go ahead; I'm sorry.

RH: I drove a school same time I was...

B: Oh, you did?

RH: Justice of the Peace. Yes.

B: So, did...uh...What kind of stuff did you do when you were Justice of the Peace? What kind of things would you do?

RH: Well you tried misdemeanor cases only. You...we wasn't allowed to try any felony cases. Held over to the grand jury, you see. A felony come up we couldn't try that; we just...here the    ___ with the grand jury. But misdemeanor, we allowed no...tried no property cases. Any question of right or wrong of property, we could try that. Several things we had that there was to try, but just road violation, things like that.    ___ and drunks, if they were like that; we'd try them misdemeanors...limited.

B: Did any incident stand out in your mind; either, you know,humorous, or...or anything like that?

RH: Well, I don't know. I had so many. I know everything in the book, just about it. Had a lot of fights in my office. Women were jealous of    ___, you know...try on    ___ of the hair that you couldn't separate them or get them apart. A time or two,    ___ the Justice of the Peace be able to try the case you know. Force that in for me. They jumped me by giving me trouble. I figured they wanted to fight, you know. Women like that, you know--jealous of each of other. It was a jealousy case. But won it out a time or two a-fighting. Never have they known boy    ___ in a trial like that.

B: Did any of those women ever get in fights right downtown or were they usually at somebody's house?

RH: In my office most the time.

B: Really?

RH: They'd come there for trial and get in a fight. Just jump across the room and grab one by the hair of the head and around and around they go, you know, fighting. Then, take a half a dozen (?) off. They    ___ a lot of times, you know. Yeah.

B: Now where was your office when you...

RH: Matewan. It's on the back corner next to the railroad tracks. Post office should be in the front corner ,straight across from the bank. Now, on back at the back street, next to the river, on the corner, my office was.

B: Okay.

RH: Now, across the tracks, the last few years.

B: Okay. Is that that little block building?

RH: That's is...yeah, that I owned it. I bought it then. I sold it to my brother-in-law later on, after I left town, there.

B: Somebody said something about the little block building being the jail.

RH: It was it the jail before ever I bought. It was the old jailhouse there. And uh...they...they'd break out ever few days. They usually break out of them, I guess. But, I thought...Jim Butcher bought it first, and I bought it from him--from Mrs. Chambers. Did you go swimming? (speaking to another person) Tape cuts off swimming down...out this summer.

B: So Jim Butcher bought it first?

RH: He bought it from Mrs. Chambers and I bought it from him. Jim Butcher. Yeah. Then, I sold it my...Mike Lecco, my brother-in-law, and had office there for several years. (tape cuts off)

B: How long was that building the jail? Do you know?

RH: It was several years. I don't know how long, several years, there...been there quite a while.

B: And you say fellows broke out of it, occasionally?

RH: Yeah. Occasionally, yeah. Quite often in and out there.

B: Anybody that you know or...

RH: I can't just remember who I remember talking about jailbreak, though, in the town of Matewan. Just a lock-up more than anything else, you see. Went over at City Hall later on, where it is now.

B: Where was the jail uh...back in the uh...'20s and '30s? Do you know?

RH: I don't know. It's been about the same place in the old jail, there. That's the first I remember it?

B: How far back can you remember going to Matewan. What's your first memory of Matewan?

RH: Well, actually, when I went to school down there, that time, nobody traveled very much, you know. They stayed home and worked all the time about it. You know...farming, things like that. But, I went to high school--my first    ___ to Matewan.

B: Did they kids walk to school, down to the high school?

RH: No, we had an old school bus. We had an old bus. They called it an chicken coop old bus.

B: Chicken coop.

RH: Yeah. A fellow named Fonzo Hatfield drove the bus.

B: How safe was riding the bus back then? The roads couldn't have been much better than they are now.

RH: Oh, they were terrible. But, they'd take their time...slow, you know. Take you an hour to get home from school, a long time. And had no road for years, there. No hard topped, just...creeks road and just washed out the creeks and banks and creeks and everything.

B: How long would it take you to get there in the morning? How early did you have to get up?

RH: Well, I'd say it did have an hour, at least, to Matewan, and that much to get home.

B: Okay. And when you started driving the school bus, what kind of bus was it?

RH: I drove a nice bus...it was a Chevrolet bus....number eight bus. I drove it back, I'd say, eight or ten years. It's a good bus. And then, naturally, drove a different one later on, you know.

B: I want to ask...

RH: And I drove a transportation bus for years. About ten years. That from Matewan up this area...Delbarton.

B: How much was the fair on those busses?

RH: It was a dime to Red Jacket and a quarter...    ___ to Newtown.

B: Let me get this...

RH: We was getting paid $60 a week at that time. I'd drive seven days to start with. Had a lot of long hours. Then    ___ cut us down about eight hours a day and give us a day off, you know.

B: When was this?

RH: That was in see now late 30s 'n early 40s.

B: Now...now, what did people take the uh...bus for to Matewan and back?

RH: Well back through war time they was...there was no other way to get any where you know. No gasoline, nothing like that, cars...bus; with a bus...that time, they was jammed full. It be a round trip every hour. Come to Meador up here from Matewan. That's about six and a half miles, I guess, near seven, and back there in a hour's time. And you let a passengers off stop by stops. We hauled the coal miners, too, through shifts, and the nights, days, mornings.

B: So, did this bus run twenty-four hours a day or...

RH: Well, it run actually about early in the morning, say...5:30 (a.m.) for the miners and but, most of it quit around 12:00. Then go back on, maybe, then one--something maybe a little bit to get the miners and bring them back home. They mined 2:00 or 3:00 o'clock in the morning.

B: Now who owned this bus system?

RH: Uh...Cliff Miller owned it at that time. He was in charge of it. Then later on he had some people merge(?) with him, maybe Dan Chambers and A. C. Smith and--lets see, (Speaking to someone else) who was that man who got burnt up in his house, honey, or died his    ___ to wife? That park down Matewan. Park named after him in Matewan. That, uh...Allen O'Brien.

B: Allen O'Brien.

RH: Yeah, they was in partners with the bus line.

B: During the war time, do you know how they got their gas? How did they get the gas to the bus line?

RH: They had stamps issued to them, you know. Buy so many stamps, like everybody else did, and made extra stamps, of course...you know, to hog...but, we got to give parcel to the busses. They was traps, actually. Couldn't (get) no parts and breaks and things like (that). Just operate on a shoestring. Had to put...in that time, had to keep them in shape to drive. No breaks half the time, (nor) lights half the time. Just try to get by, you know.    ___, Inc. kept a close check on us. They work for the insurance company. Mark    ___ They have most...they were all Greyhound bus drivers. Checked on us people. The taxis and busses. They kept...they were pretty strict. Just stop us on the road and    ___, a lot of time.

B: Oh, really?

RH: Yeah, get brakes on them lights, on them things like that. They were pretty strict.

B: Now who would stop you?

RH: Mark L. Incorporated.

B: Mark.

RH: Mark L. They was worked for the insurance people. They was countrywide.

B: Did you have to have a driver license by the 1930s?

RH: Chauffeur's license.

B: Chauffeur's license.

RH: Yes. Uh-huh.

B: What kind of testing did they do back in the '30s and '40s to give people licenses?

RH: Actually, it was like an operator's license test. And you just    ___ chauffeur's license, give them every year, though...you see. (It) cost a little more--about three dollars a week at that time, and, maybe, at the operator, a dollar for four years. We get to show it every year.

B: How did you go about getting your operator's license in the thirties...

RH: They would give you a test...driving test, you know. That's about all there was to it.

B: Was that the state police? Is that who did it?

RH: Yeah...yeah. The state police give them to you.

B: Did you have to go to WIlliamson for that?

RH: Yeah.

B: Okay. Lets see...do you remember anything about the flu epidemic? You were a small child.

RH: No, that's about 17, 18, I was just being born about a year or two at that time. A lot of people died around this area.

B: Did people talk about it when you were little or...

RH: Yeah. People helping out like my dad-in-law. Old man Russell Hatfield, my Uncle Bill    ___ sick that way, you know. All the people that helped out died with the flu. I believe it was mostly in 1918. I believe (1918) was when people died the most. A lot of people had it.

B: What were religion were you raised in? Were you raised...

RH: Protestant.

B: Protestant. Okay. What church did you all...

RH: Church of God.

B: Okay.

RH: ...and Pentecostal is about the same thing.

B: Okay. So, uh...what kind of beliefs did you all have? I know there is different branches of Church of God, so I was trying to find out... RH: This was in Headport (?), Cleveland, Tennessee, when my parents and my family belonged to (the Church of God) and Pentecostal Holiness, but they had no organization--Pentecostal had no organization, you know. (The Pentacostal Church) didn't have any old books and regulations in the church.

B: What kind of things did you all do in church? Uh...you know, did you sing or....

RH: Yeah. Sing and pray.

B: Some of the beliefs that uh...local churches have, Mr. Harmon, are things like healing by faith. Did your church believe in that?

RH: Oh, yeah.

B: Was that something that was...when people were prayed for, did they pray privately, or did...would they pray in the church? What...

RH: We prayed in the church...and privately, too. They'd come home and pray for me, or pray in the church, either one.

B: Okay. Did you all have revivals or anything?

RH: Oh, yeah...yeah. Quite often. Ministers come here pretty often to hold revivals, you know.

B: Was there a local minister when you were growing up, or did they travel on a circuit?

RH: Yeah, they had their local minister, and then people would travel revivals, you know--all around preaching churches. That is pastors, you know, in the church. (speaks to someone else) You need potatoes? Huh? You need potatoes?

B: Uh...some of the other religions that we've heard that have come through Matewan is, uh...Howard Radford said that he remembered, uh...there being a snake handling church in Matewan, back in the '20's. Did you ever hear anything about that?

RH: I attended one at Varney one time--me and my wife. By, I don't remember it being in Matewan...that I remember of.

B: What do you remember about that...that experience?

RH: Well it was something new to me. I mean, I was sort of afraid of it, you know. I still am, to tell you the truth...but yet, I wanting seeing about people that did it. I seen    ___ things...otherwords, the power of God was all in how we handled these snakes, and some of them doubted, and back off them. They doubted. And, uh...H. H. Tigart(?) was preaching at that time. Tigart(?), and he used to belong to the Church of God. He still    ___ he said that the Church of God was standing still, not moving out on faith. And, God...and he quote the Bible, last chapter of Mark, by    ___ serpents, and quote this scripture. But, they was all    ___ to each other. And the power of God always is, you know, like    ___. And, I was    ___, although I can't handle them at all. If the God    ___ handled them, I guess I could do it--'cause I'm fearful of snakes. But, there was a few (that) handle them. They was around their necks and on their arms, and a pastor of that church handled them that night, too. (He) had them up over his head and one in his hand--copperheads, there.

B: Copperheads?

RH: Uh-huh.

B: Any of those people get bit? Do you know were they bitten?

RH: Not...not then, no. One women, she dropped in the floor and back off of them; she doubted, is what she said. They will bit you.

B: Yeah.

RH: No teeth pulled--had their teeth. He made a remark about his wife    ___, and probably come out of the mountains (with) a snake in a jar. Rattlesnake. Yes, the Lord    ___. I know him to take the string off his neck, so he could use it in his church services. And Lord knowing, his wife, she took it off his neck--and she's afraid of a fishworm.    ___ about it, but they    ___ all handle it. Snakes's about all in the church belongs to the...but, they beyond the power of God, and his dad...they'd be shaking like a leaf.

B: Uh-huh. Were there children? Did they children participate or was it just the....

RH: No. Just the people going there. There serve    ___ fifteen or twenty people...

B: Did anybody hand one to you?

RH: No...no, I was in the back of the house. I was back as far as I could get. My uncle, he belonged to the Church of God. We all went to church. We sit up in the back.

B: Did they mind you all just observing, or what did...

RH: No, they didn't care. But I'll tell you, I never say nothing about them, 'cause I couldn't do it myself. But, I won't say nothing about the people that can. They got more, uh...    ___ than I've got.

B: When was this? About how old were you do you know?

RH: Oh, I...oh, been married. Uh...when was that honey?

Rex's Wife: What's that?

RH: Them people that had them snakes up Varney?

Rex's Wife: When we went over thair (there) to see them?

RH: Yeah.

Rex's Wife: I'd say it was about '48 or "50. I don't know.

RH: About in the '40s or sometime.

B: When did you get married?

RH: Nineteen and forty...

Rex's Wife: He always criticized it so much...

RH: March....

Rex's Wife: Never did say anything negative after that.

RH: She's got...she's taping all this, honey. Uh...we were married in March the 23rd, nineteen and forty.

B: How long had you all dated?

RH: Off and on for six or seven years. We grew up in the same town, you know.

B: What would you all do before you get married. Did you go to the movies or...

RH: Yeah. Movies, square dance, just things like that, you know... parties.

B: How old were you when you went to your first movie? Do you remember?

RH: I...lets see, I guess I went to Delbarton to see my first movie. My Aunt Jean Akers, over there--that's David's mother. Go stay a weekend with them sometime, 'cause...the first movie I ever saw I was about, I guess, maybe 12 or 13 years old.

B: What do you remember about that movie? Do you remember anything? Was it a silent movie or...

RH: No, it wasn't silent. I've saw some silent movies, but this one was a talk, you know. Western is about all you seen at that time. We seen a western. Yeah.

B: Was this an indoor...

RH: Tom Micks.

B: Tom Micks?

RH: Yeah Tom Micks and, lets see, the other guys that played...he's a McCoy and, lets see, can't remember...there were all heroes to be, you know. It was an indoor movie, you know.

B: It was an indoor movie? Okay. About how much did movies cost when you were going? When you were...

RH: I believe about a dime, at that time.

B: About a dime?

RH: Uh-huh. But, I can remember the dime.

B: Okay. When you were a young man and a young boy, what did you do for fun. When you all got away from doing your work, what would you all do?

RH: Well, we played marbles and played base and just, uh...fox and dogs, you know, run the mountains and just things like that, you know. Had to work about all the time, to tell you the truth. Didn't have time for...had chores to do at home. You had to do it to live, at that time.

B: Tell me some about playing marbles. Who did you play marbles with?

RH: Everybody. I was just about the champion, around here, in marbles. Yeah, I win boxes full, you know.

B: Uh-huh. What kind of marbles did you have?

RH: Well we had mostly what they call a dab just, uh...little clay marble. You'd could made them or sell...bake them in the oven a lot of time but my dad    ___ call it for a t'all (at all), it, you know, to shoot with. That way they'd thought more of them than a automobile, today, you know. Everybody played marbles, at that time.

B: Now this is the boys or the girls?

RH: Well, boys, mostly; girls, sometimes they...not too much. They had their playhouse, they call it, you know. They played playhouse...boys played marbles. Played ball...we have no    ___ ball or something.

B: Now when you were older, some of the people, uh...that we've interviewed played on company teams...baseball. Did you ever play on...

RH: Yeah, I played some, but not too much.

B: What team(s) were there around here? Do you remember?

RH: Lets see a Redbird in Williamson, Red Robin at Pond Creek, and Red Jacket had their own team. I don't remember what the name of it was, though. Just Red Jacket ball team, I reckon. But, I played for some. Never too good, either.

B: Were your family uh...was your dad interested in politics?

RH: No. Never interested in politics at all. Hardly any of my family was, you know, but me. Kids--a little bit, but not much. Mostly me.

B: Were you a Democrat or Republican?

RH: Republican, years ago; and Democrat, later on.

B: Seemed like the Republican party had never been very strong in this area? RH: No, they wasn't. Back in    ___ time I was Republican at that time. I was working at a store in Matewan and I worked about a year, or a little over a year. And, uh...they piled a lot of    ___ in the store. Ramond Miller,    ___ Abbos and me: the three clerks and the manager of the store. So come a lay-off, so they found--I forget how much    ___--two or three hundred dollars of    ___ in the store.

B: Some of the names that have come up when we've ask(ed) people about politics, I'm gonna ask you the names and if you want to say something, you can. If you don't want to, you don't have to. Uh... one of the name that has come up is Blind Billy Adair. Did you ever know anything about that (him)?

RH: I knew him well. Yes, uh...

B: What do you remember about him?

RH: Well, he had a mark on his face...he was blind,couldn't see. He trade(ed) cattle    ___ you couldn't fool him with nothing like that. You can put a bad cow--put on him--he knew.

B: Really?

RH: He's smart (in) that way. I heard over the years that...in fact when I went driving a bus, I believe he was just going out of the office, that time. Maybe I was in office, at that time, in '58. But it was talk that he put a lot of people through school on the money. They paid it back with interest, of course, you know. Paid them back, put a lot of people...I guess he    ___ had people in lower district of that area, Delbarton area...(He) live(ed) over there. But I know that people say he helped them through school...loaned them money to go back to school with...good to people.    ___ was in the same time he was. Lets see,    ___ and Billy Adair and somebody else--I can't remember who it was.    ___ then...but it changed right every so often. Never lasted, you know.

B: How about this man Noah Floyd? What'd ya know about him?

RH: Noah Floyd was...he was chairman of Democrat party for years. I was one of he committee man. Close friend of mine, honest man. He had a lot of power in the county. Every    ___ you live on the    ___. And slate's got a time, you know. He was on the slate, but he didn't get elected, that time.

B: How did he get his power? I mean, when people say he had a power base...

RH: Well the people, jobs and things like that, you see, just like...just like I had a big family.

B: I'm not around here...from around here so I don't know, what did they finally put Johnny Owens in the penitentiary for?

RH: Well, actually they claimed him for fraud. But, he is one of the most honest men I ever knew. Most honest man that I ever knew was Johnny Owens.    ___ he running for office. He would not lie to you about nothing. He didn't have much power...I don't believe...as Noah Floyd did. Noah was in longer than he was, you know, but he had a lot of power. But, can tell you the truth about ...if it took the hide off of him he'd tell you the truth. He's an honest man. He'd just tell you yes or tell you no, or I can't or I will...that's the way it was...didn't lie to you about nothing.

B: How about Huey Perry? We heard there's a book that he wrote about things back in the '60's.

RH: That's back when, the time...back when Noah Floyd's time and he fell out with..well he didn't fall out    ___ and he    ___, you know, with the party all the time. He started in the E.O.C and tried to get too much power, and they soon put Larry Hambrick in his place, director. My brother worked with him for years, (in the) E.O.C.

B: So there was a kind of power struggle going on?

RH: Oh, yeah.

B: Okay. One of the things that, uh...the guy that has been interviewing with me, somebody mentioned to him that there was a tunnel where people's bodies would be found. They never knew how they got there. The...is it the Dingess tunnel?

RH: Dingess tunnel?

B: Uh-huh.

RH: There's suppose to been a train...passenger train stalled in that tunnel years ago. And I think maybe the smoke killed some people before they'd get out and get the air to them. Maybe that's what they're talking about. I heard about it years ago before my time. A little railroad tunnel its traveling    ___ now. But, that tunnel...the train stalled in that tunnel some way, and the smoke from the train...blowing smoke...

B:...killed them all?

RH: Killed, not...some of the people, I understand. I don't remember how many, but I heard them talk about some people got killed in it...passenger train, I believe.

B: Okay. How about the uh...the Glen Allen robbery? Did you ever hear people talk about that?

RH: Yeah, I heard about that. Yeah.

B: What did you hear about that?

RH: Well it was a payroll form a coal company, and I believe it's Italians..it's Italians that was robbin'...now Greenway Hatfield was Sheriff of the county at that time. Had a shootout back in the mountains, back in there. I understand a feller called Rock-something, first name was Rock, down in Matewan. People suspect him of being the brain behind that robbery.

B: Now was he an Italian?

RH: Yeah. His first name was Rock. Rock Dunnery, I believe they call his name. Dunnery, I believe they call him. But suspicion as he was the head of the Italian gang. But he wasn't there at the shootout. But, uh...was talking about it. One of the guys got up the next morning    ___ rooster was they. He was killed, but they robbed the people. I think they caught them all--should have killed some of them. What year that was, way back.

B: Another rumor that we've heard about the Matewan Massacre, but most people have denied it but we don't know what's true and what's not, is that the people had a celebration in town the night of that...the Massacre. Did Mr. Overstreet ever tell you about what happened after...

RH: No...

B: ...happened that night?

RH: No, celebration, no. I know old man Cap Hatfield and Joe Glenn had a shootout there in Matewan that killed some people, one time.

B: Oh, really?

RH: Or about that time.

B: What happened? Do you know?

RH: He killed some guys there, two or three, and went across Mate Creek and up that point, there, toward Blackberry City, and got away. Joe Glenn was Cap's stepson.

B: You say it was about time of the massacre?

RH: Yeah, about that time. In that underpass, there, somebody killed one or two in there. Maybe one or two in a hardware store.    ___

B: Uh-huh. Now this was the same incident. This was Cap Hatfield that killed...who got killed in the underpass?

RH: I can't remember who it was. Killed one in the underpass and one or two in the store on the corner getting out of town.

B: Okay.

RH: That's pretty (a) bad character. Then that old man Joe Glen that was killed up here at Meador years ago by the one they call Will Smith. Joe Glen had a...stole a store up there at Meador. This guy bushwacked him, I think, Willard Smith. Ellison Hatfield was a constable at that time. That was Devil Anse's brother--the one that got killed. He's gonna go up and get Williamson and arrest him. So, any how, he lived up around in the mouth of Meador branch--had a boy named Bob and a daughter, Will Smith. Will Smith's wife later on married old man Tom Mitchell, the one that helped right in that feud. Helped burn the house, McCoy house, and got his fingers shot off. So Will Smith left, hid behind Meador post office. Vince grew up there. (He) had some clothes on a stick on his   ___    ___ and laid on by there.    ___

B: Oh, really?

RH: Yeah. That (was) Will Smith. (He) got away and if he killed Joe Glen.

B: So (it was) Cap Hatfield and Joe Glen that actually happened back during the time of the feud or...

RH: Well, it...I don't know whether it was after...after the feud, I'd say. It was after the feud, maybe. But, anyhow, he left here and I think he went to Virginia, (that's) what people told me. He went to Virginia and a doctor came in here by the Bow Wow years ago. He doctored...uh...delivered one of my boys. And, he ask about the Smiths. (He) looked just like Mob Smith--enough to be his brother. The people suspicioned at that time that the old man went there and... that's one of his son...everybody suspicioned it. Just like he has a mouth like him 'n all, they call him picture lip, he looked (like) him, and he ask about the Smiths in this country. He didn't stay here too long. Went back to Virginia. But people suspicioned old man Will Smith and his daddy to back around another family of his.

B: Now you say that Ellison Hatfield was gonna go arrest him?

RH: Yeah, see there was a    ___ there at that time and Ellison was put in at constable at that time 'cause this one a shootin'...

B: Joe Glen.

RH: Joe Glen, yeah.

B: Okay.

RH: And he left before Ellison arrested him. Took up the mountain the bushes behind the fence...post office there.

B: What did you know about Tom Mitchell?

RH: Well, I remember him well. I questioned when I was a boy what happened to his hand. He say a hog bit it off. That's what...

B: Yeah.

RH: Raids, all they had, to Kentucky and back to West Virginia, back and forth.

B: How about Ellison Hatfield, the one that got killed on Election Day? What did you ever hear about him?

RH: That's my wife's great grandaddy.

B: Oh, okay.

RH: Her mother's grandaddy, he lived at the mouth of Double Camp. That were (was) his family, up there. He's one of the constables down 'ere, you see. They was of those kids. (To wife) How many times was Ellison Hatfield stabbed honey--shot? How many times was Ellison stabbed and shot?

B: What did you know about the, uh...bootleggin' that went on in the early days in Matewan. Did you ever hear any stories about bootleggin' downtown?

RH: Oh, everywhere everybody knew to bootleg, yel (yeah). (They) sold moonshine, mostly. See, at that time, everybody had moonshine liquor    ___

B: Now, did the law know about all this moonshinin'?

RH: I'd say sometimes they didn't. I feel all of 'em bought off at the time you know their friends, but sometimes they'd catch 'em not too much. People gonna drink anyhow, you know, back home drunk moonshine liquor.

B: I got another name that somebody's mentioned that were lookin' for information for and that's Aunt Carrie. Did you ever hear about Aunt Carrie?

RH: About that girl, yes. She laid there in town a lot of (the) time. She become a lady. Oh, yeah, she called everybody a knocker.

B: (Laughing )

RH: "Knocker!", she said, knocker yel she bootlegged in town for years and years I think she pretty well protected by the town, they never bothered her    ___. Her husband was old man John Burl, big John, Willard Smith killed him I think it was town policeman he didn't have but a pistol I think or something, he went to draw after something he thought he was reachin' for a gun my understanding, John Earl Burl yel.

B: Did you say Smith, Will Smith killed him?

RH: Willard Smith.

B: Willard Smith, ok.

RH: He was town policeman at the time.

B: I interviewed Mary Ward and she said that Willard.

RH: That's her daddy.

B: Belong to the Klan did you ever hear about that?

RH: Who?

B: The Klu-Klux-Klan that Willard Smith belonged to the Klan did you ever...

RH: That's her daddy. He may have, I don't know. He kept pretty well quiet. I know my uncle belong(ed) to a    ___ down South Carolina...(He) belong(ed) to the wildcatters in this country, around here. (We) had wildcatters back at that time.

B: What were they?

RH: They beat up these boss(es) around these coal mines and all, you know. the union, but they was on union side. Wildcatters, they'd beat the bosses up, catch 'em out, whip 'em--things like that.

B: Did they wear anything to hide who they were?

RH: I don't know. They must (have) had you have to recognize 'em by their voice. They'd (There'd, sic) be a gang of 'em (to) catch 'em take (them) somewhere, and tie 'em up and whip 'em and things like that.

B: They never threatened your father, did they?

RH: No, no.

B: When were these wildcatters active? Was it '20s, '30s or...

RH: In the late '30s and early '40s.

B: Mary said that the Klan around here was more of a social that they...it wasn't so much directed against the blacks as it was people not being good to their wives or something.

RH: That's right. They wouldn't bother colored people. They have a lot of 'em in this country, here    ___, you know and mostly they was after the bosses. They    ___ the wildcatter about the same thing as the Klan. Klan never (was) too active in (around) here...never too active...didn't hear too much out of 'em...mostly the wildcatter, the same thing as the Klan. Klan never (was) too active in (around) here; never too active in this country, mostly the wildcatter. They call(ed) 'em wildcatter. They have a gang get-together, slip out in the night, take some boss out, be lookin' for some man if he was beatin' his wife--they take care of him, whip him, thing like that, you know. My uncle, he's    ___ a boss at Puritan Mines, over there, one night, big ole tree, biggest ole tree in the state.

B: Hmm! hmm!

RH: Charleston, right now, they'd be part of the ole tree, biggest in the world. They claim tying him to that tree, and they beat him up and he recognized my uncle's voice, a keen type voice. I heard he made him get on his knees and beg to him over in Delbarton with a gun on him, one day, goin' to kill him    ___. (They) call(ed) 'em the wildcatters, these mine formers (who were) tough on their men, they dread(ed) 'em. He belonged to the Klu-Klux-Klan down South, too. He's 89 years old, now. They get in their garages around their house and catch 'em at night, you know, at work, or something. They come back out and catch 'em, take 'em out and beat'em.

B: I hadn't heard that.

RH: They put...tie a bunch of    ___ on their porch, you know, warn 'em. (THey) used to tar and feather people years ago like some lady having trouble with their husband; steppin' (out) on their old man, something, you know. They(ed) tar and feather 'em years ago, before my time. I heard 'em talkin' about it--old people. It was tough.

B: How old were you when you got a car(or) did you ever?

RH: Car?

B: Uh-huh. When did you buy your first car?

RH: I'd say (when I was) about 20 years old bought an old Chevrolet off of Dockie Birthy. (It) didn't have any breaks on it...put it in gear. No lights on it, half the time, and ride it to the movie at night, you know. Tthey got games talk to it in the seats, trunk (was) almost eat(en) up. You'd have movie--just slap it in gear and fly to a halt, you know. Fist one I ever had.

B: Did you belong to the union when you worked in the mines?

RH: Yel, oh yel, at that time union took effect in "34" they had to start payin' their union wages at this time the year I went to the mines 1934 first day of May.

B: What kind of things would go on in the union meetin's? What kind of things did you talk about?

RH: Well, they'd want everything better for the men you know    ___ just a contract and things like that you know they'd talk it over while they got it they'd make you take an oath you know, initiate you know never under cut our brothers on that, always stand by your brothers and all. Then every week lower wages and better benefits then through the years somebody be a snitchin' union report to the boss what they said in the meetings you know, we know that somebody, but what happened the boss always come back at us they caught two or three of 'em.

B: What happened to the snitches what would happen to 'em?

RH: Actually later on put 'em out the union a lot of time the boss boss man they'd black ball 'em refuse to work for 'em send 'em down the holler let 'em boss the men tough on 'em a lot of times.

B: Did you all have secret pass words or anything like that to get in the meeting?

RH: Oh, yel oh, yel.

B: Are they still secret or could you tell me any of 'em?

RH: I've not been in the union for years I guess they do.

B: What was you all's pass word do you remember?

RH: I don't remember what it was, just different words you know, just same word you went you by the doorkeeper you know.

B: Where would you all meet?

RH: North Matewan most of the time we meet in the union hall down there, they was 2,000 men in this holler at that time lots of mines in this holler all Red Jacket Coal Company at that time that was all hand loaded coal you know 'til they put machinery in.

B: Did you work for Red Jacket after they started strip mining?

RH: No, no    ___ just underground most of it.

B: So were you ever paid by the ton how did?

RH: Oh, yel loadin' coal yel huh! I forget just how much they paid what the wage was I remember before I went in the mine they was gettin' around 40 cents a cart this is a car that's 3 ton 3 ton and a half cars we get paid by the shipped and then track, but then I load coal or something to we'd average about $4.00 dollars a day if you notice seven men and seven cars made people place make about $4.00 dollars a piece. Anyhow a load of coal placed together they'd make seven cars I'd get four cars one day and him four the next average about $4.00 dollars somethin' a day like a day company wages another words about a little over 20 ton bring you $7.00 dollars.

B: Now they say in the early days that the miners would also have to go in and put up the timbers and do all that and they wouldn't get paid for that. Did you all have to do that kind of preparation?

RH: Well, later on they hired timber men to do their timber, but in that time they did their own timber and way back they shoot their own coal see I went in the mines they was cuttin' and shootin' it gettin' paid for it and timber men track men they lay here on the track and haul it out you see.

B: Okay.

RH: They took that away from them they did hard men do that see.

B: Okay. Which was the most dangerous job do you think?

RH: In the mines at that time I'd say breakin' from water was the most dangerous job and maybe cuttin' coal with the machines next thing more dangerous jobs.

B: What kind of machines were they using at that time to cut the coal?

RH: They used 35mm jepery machine bottom cut machine when I went in the mines and sulivant? and jerpery? and sulivants? and goodman's different kind of machine goodman's and sulivant? and jerpery they bottom cut machine most of it. I worked on for years myself.

B: Did you ever work with any Italian fellows or Spanish fellows?

RH: Oh, yel I worked with all kinds of them down at Peidmont Mine yel with some colors, Hungarians, Italians, Spanish, colored and uh.

B: What did people around here have to say about the Italians and Spanish and Hungarians?

RH: They was alright as far as people were concerned they wouldn't kick about 'em.

B: What kind of names did they call these emigrants?

RH: They call 'em all "hunks".

B: All of 'em hunks.

RH: They were called hunks at that time they didn't say Italians, they called 'em all hunks. That's the majority that called 'em that.

B: We had one lady that we interviewed say that being from one of those ethnic groups was worse than being black back then, did you ever anything about that I mean how did...

RH: No, I didn't hear nothing about that now they just about treated 'em all about alike you know a lot of colored and Spanish, Italians, Hungarians most of 'em had a lot of men    ___ and loadin' coal they bring 'em in here you know come in maybe a few at a time that way they could work in the mine coal workers you see.

B: Now did the uh...did the Hungarians and the Spanish and the Italians, did they mix in with the white families or were they off separate like the...

RH: They sort of lived separate off in different areas around like you know part of the camps and all most of 'em stayed in their section of the people Hungarian section, Italian and Spanish like that they call 'em about the same.

B: The camp that's known over in Matewan now Italy camp is a black community now, was that a Italian community back?

RH: Most of the Italians at that time and Spanish yel. Mitchell Branch was for the Hungarian section and colored.

B: Okay, okay are there any stories or anything that I haven't ask you about today that your thinkin' of you might wanna tell me.

RH: No, nothing I can think of.

B: Okay.

RH: Nothing I can think of right off.

B: Well, thank you for talkin' to me today and maybe we can do another interview before I leave.

RH: You're welcome.

B: Thank you.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection