Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Bertha Damron Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center, Wednesday afternoon August the 2nd, 1989, at twenty minutes 'til four. I'm in the home of Mrs. Bertha Damron, the daughter of John Collins. Mrs. Damron, my first question is, what is your full name and when were you born?

Bertha Damron: Bertha Collins Damron.

B: Okay.

BD: And, I was borned October the 30th, 1918.

B: And where were you born?

BD: I was borned at Mohawk.

B: And what were your parents' names?

BD: John and Rebecca Collins, my mother was a Birchfield.

B: Okay. And, I assume you were born at home?

BD: Uh-huh.

B: Were you born in your parents home at the time?

B: At the time?

BD: Uh-huh, yes I was.

B: Were you their first child?

BD: Oh no! I was the seventh.

B: Their seventh! Okay.

BD: Seventh child!

B: Do you know when your parents married?

BD: Uh...yes, I got their marriage certificate. Oh...right off I can't...I'd have to get that certificate.

B: Okay. Were you their last child then, were you their youngest?

BD: No.

BD: Three sons after he came from the penitentiary.

B: Okay.

BE [sic]: I was six years old and when he come back from the penitentiary and uh...she had three sons.

B: So how many were there?

BD: Ten.

B: Ten all together.

BD: Four girls and six boys.

B: Did a mid-wife or a doctor help your mother?

BD: Mid-wife uh...on the uh...on the first seven and then the last three uh...had a doctor.

B: Did you know the name of the mid-wife that helped your mother?

BD: No I don't, and I've heard her talk but I don't.

B: You wouldn't known how much she was paid would you to help deliver?

BD: Maybe something out of the garden.

B: Okay.

BD: Most...that's the most ways they paid. Very seldom money exchanged hands. There wasn't any.

B: Okay.

BD: You know that much.

B: You say a doctor helped deliver the last three?

BD: Uh-huh. Doctor Hodge.

B: Dr. Hodge.

BD: H.O.D.G.E. He was here at Matewan.

B: Was he an independent doctor or was he a company doctor?

BD: No he was an independent. Yeah my daddy never fooled with the houses nor company doctors.

B: We were talking off tape about your uh...your father's experiences in Mohawk, would you tell me some about this background there?

BD: Uh...well he worked in the mines uh....there at Mohawk and of course when the union started to try to organize uh...he had to quit. Of course you know what I told you what happened. But uh...he quit and then from there on he didn't live at home he lived in the mountains, because they'd killed them on the site.

B: Okay.

BD: Any miner that tried to organize or to hold up for the union in which they never did get it organized you know. Even after the massacre they didn't. Not 'til 30...what 33, yeah cause I was in high school.

B: Uh...do you know was their an outside organizer that had trained the men that were trying to get the union started at Mohawk or...

BD: Uh...I don't...I don't remember the name...not up there. But uh...I know when we came to Matewan he and Blizzard were great friends.

B: Okay.

BD: Now whether Blizzard sent a man up there I don't...I don't know. I couldn't you know...I wouldn't know for sure.

B: Okay. Um...the story that you told me off tape would you care to repeat about Berman Hatfield?

BD: No.

B: Okay.

BD: Uh...he was just an overbearing man and treated...treated people terrible. I know my daddy never did...that's one thing you couldn't do to my daddy. So uh..when mommy would get on the train to take him clothes and food to the mountains and Berman told her that uh...of course he cursed her used fowl language and that he didn't want to see her get back on that train no more to take John clothes and food. That if she did that his wife would be on that train and she would regret ever getting on it again. And so when mom went on...between War Eagle and uh...there at the mouth of Isaban and she went across the river on the Virginia side and she told my daddy and then about five days he was killed, Berman was. And my daddy said they were five men laid across the river there at the mouth of Isaban behind a log. And one had live ammunition and the others didn't. And he was shot and killed there and of course he was...my daddy was brought up for trial for that but it uh...some man hung the jury and he wasn't convicted on that. They tried to bring it back up again but they never did was successful. And of course when the massacre happened that's when he was sent up, sent to Moundsville.

B: So you say...I think you said off tape that even the five men themselves did not...

BD: No...no..no they didn't know who had the ammunition. Who had the live ammunition, so there was nobody that could swear against the other one and they could get no proof. You know.

B: Um...you said the man that hung the jury did he belong to a secret society?

BD: Yes...

B: That you father belonged to?

BD: Redman.

B: What were they? Were they like Masons?

BD: Yeah they still have uh...they got a lodge over at up Varney.

B: Would you tell me how the man on the jury knew that your father was a Red Man?

BD: By a button you know they'd wear. Like any organization and uh...and they have their secret way of communicating and he was communicated to and he knew then if my daddy could tell him that why whatever action he did he knew he was the Red Man too.

B: But first...

BD: See that's the way they do you know...they do that yet in these organizations.

B: That first trial there were they defended by a union lawyer?

BD: Yes.

B: Okay.

BD: But now I couldn't tell you his name either. And I've heard oh...hundreds of times. Yes they were defended by one...by a union lawyer.

B: You wouldn't to happen to have known what years that was?

BD: Uh...I'd say that was long about uh...1920, because the man was killed before we moved from Mohawk and I...you know I'd loved to have went to the court house but there's been so many record destroyed. I'd love to have a copy of all those trials. But uh...the floods got into the court house and I thought about that hundreds of times but I got my mothers and daddy's marriage certificate.

B: Do you know where they were tried perhaps that's something...

BD: No they were tried at Williamson. Uh-huh...yes mam. That's where he was sentenced from at Williamson when he was sent up.

B: and you say you all came to Matewan not long after your father was acquitted?

BD: About uh...no we lived at Matewan when they arrested him. Before the killing cause that was in Mingo County. After you cross that bridge you're in Mingo County. And the other side is McDowell across that bridge. I've been there so much I can shut my eyes and see it.

B: So when...you were just an infant but when did your....

BD: at that time...

B: family move to Matewan?

BD: Uh...we moved in the '20's uh...1920 cause that's when we lived in the tents. Here at North Matewan.

B: Do you know how long your family lived in the tent colony here at North Matewan?

BD: Uh...approximately a year.

B: Okay.

BD: Cause my baby members or four and five was down there in that big house.

B: Okay. Uh...we've had some people tell us that uh...they were actually each family had two tents, there was a living tent and then kind of like a kitchen tent.

BD: If it was big family. Yes

B: Okay. What did uh...what were you told about the family living in the tent colony where there memories that were shared in the family?

BD: Oh yes. Uh...they uh...two they were all close because they were all fighting for the same thing. and uh...they shared uh...I've heard you know they'd get so many laughs through the years cause a lot of the people still lived. And yes they uh...they shared and they uh...I guess especially the woman enjoyed their you know sharing maybe meals or what one didn't have the other helped and uh...it why a tough life but uh...you...

B: What kind of stories did your mother tell about you know living in the tent colonies? I know it must have been different from keeping house in a regular house?

BD: With seven children. (laughing)

B: Exactly.

BD: Yeah because she had seven then. Well uh...naturally hardships. But uh...how they would wash and uh...you know their...and of course the wash tubs and wash board and uh...it was rough but they survived. And never heard no complaints you know it didn't people I guess didn't complain that much back then like they do now. But they're things just not right.

B: How did they get their supplies?

BD: Uh...by the help of people that was helping to fight for the union. Now the Chamber's helped in Matewan. Uh...we couldn't have survived without them. Even when my daddy was in the penitentiary. Uh...they were one of the best families you know for the union that has ever been in this county.

B: So did they...would they uh...give people supplies on loan kind of?

BD: Uh...yes...yes.

B: Okay. We've also heard that the union issued relief checks eventually to...

BD: Well now I never did hear my daddy say they did. Maybe they did.

B: Okay. We also...

BD: See the union wasn't that big in the whole United States at that time.

B: That's true.

BD: And when uh...mother Jones came...she came to Matewan. And uh...I suppose she did help bring in help because she was a great fighter for the men.

B: Did your father meet her?

BD: Oh yes. Yes.

B: What did he say about her?

BD: He said she was a wonderful jolly person and she was stern with her belief. Yes he's talked about her so much. Of course he though she was a wonderful woman that would be out fighting for that cause.

B: We've heard some...we've also heard some humor stories about her chewing tobacco...

BD: Yeah.

B: and about her cussing. Did he ever...

BD: Yes uh...that was the part I guess he liked about her. She was a down to earth lady. Uh-huh. Uh...you know there was no put on about her. She was just a rough tough lady but she was enjoyable and...evidently to be around.

B: Uh..you said before that your father was the first president of the union.

BD: Of the union at Red Jacket.

B: Was this when it became legal?

BD: Yes uh-huh. When they first organized uh...he was the first president....(speaks to husband) Olie (Ola) do you remember the number of that local? Oh I thought he was in here. I can't remember the number of it. Yeah he was the first president of the local in Red Jacket. Course their union hall was here at North Matewan.

B: What was told to you about the day of the massacre? Did your father ever talk about it?

BD: Yes...oh my goodness yes. Uh...he talked how they planned and how they stationed all the men and of course what happened how many was killed but even to him at the time there was humor in cause they knew they had succeeded on that one you know. And but he said uh...they was uh...some of the men would jump off of the train, two of them in particular he's laughed and talked about it. And they ran across the town. You we had a beautiful little town. Matewan was...we had some beautiful homes, beautiful yards but they run and jumped in the river to get away. And oh...pop said that uh...all the men was shooting at and killed on and he said they kept shooting at the other one. And he said he ask them let him go we've killed one said he'll never come back to Mingo County. And he said when the man went out of site down the river that he would laugh. He'd laugh and tell us about how these men you know fought so hard to get away and they got one but he said they ask the man not to kill the other one. because he my daddy had a heart even though he probably killed but he was...he was a wonderful person.

B: You say that um...he said that they planned...

BD: Oh yes. They had the men all stationed where they wanted him...you know some on the building some in the building there at Matewan of course those building were still standing. When the train pulled in. Oh yes they were ready for them. Now where they got word maybe the railroad because the railroad men did help them. But evidently had warned them you know of what was coming into Matewan. Because they were ready for them. Were men on top of buildings you know the big buildings there at Matewan and there was some in the building shooting through out the windows. And there was some on the bottom floor. I mean you know the main floors because everybody at Matewan is for helping. So it wasn't no problem to you know to get them all lined up and evidently they got...did a good job because they really did cut them down but uh...and I've always thought and i've wondered I can't remember them ever saying where the word came from that they were coming in, but now you know they had to have word didn't they? Or they wouldn't have been expecting them. But they...this...that was one time they wasn't caught unaware. They were ready.

B: Did your father ever say who he thought fired the first shot?

BD: Hunt-uh...

B: He never said?

BD: No never. Not that I ever...no he wouldn't have anyway?

B: Well we've heard...

BD: They were awfully lum on a lot of stuff you know I guess.

B: We've heard some stories, we've heard that Albert Burgraff um...school was letting out about the time that the shooting started and that Albert Burgraff rounded up the children. Did you father ever say anything about that?

BD: Uh...no because he was...he was right in the middle of Matewan. Cause he was a leader when Broggs...Broggs Chambers had the Hardware and when he'd gettin' a shipment of riffles he'd always get word to my daddy somewhere in the mountains and where ever he was cause they had communication going all the time. They were well organized in their work. Which they don't do it that way now. But uh...some how or other that he had a shipment of riffles. And he would make it in some way or other and he would get his choice because I reckon he was a good shot and you know he's talked about that so much how good they were to him. And how Broggs would do that for the miners and uh...of course that's...that's how the rifles got in.

B: One of the other stories that we've heard and we've had everyone that we know close to the massacre denied this but it was written in a book that after the massacre that night that the people in Matewan celebrated.

BD: No...unt-uh...

B: Do you know what...

BD: Because the union men lost men too. Now I assure you it was quite, quite., quite.

B: Okay.

BD: I never...no I never knew of any celebration at all and no talk of any, because everybody was scared of their life.

B: The story that we heard locally was that several of the union men uh...Charlie Kiser among them actually patrolled the town to make sure that were no agents coming back in.

BD: I would say they did. That's the reason I say there was no celebration. What ever I heard of they may...they gloried in their hearts but I never knew unt-uh...I never did hear and we lived right there you know. And uh...but everybody feared for their life cause they knowed what had happened and they didn't know what the governor nor the sheriff would even send in. So no...I..I don't... I never heard of it.

B: Okay.

BD: and knowing how everything was so quit and so secretive that no I don't think so. Maybe they might have between some but it...it was a quiet one.

B: Okay.

BD: I've had a cold.

B: We've mentioned off tape that your father hid guns in the house that you all lived in, could you tell me how he hid them?

BD: Yes he would uh...the houses back then were had the ceiling type uh...we called it boards up the...and he'd take those off... he'd take those off and put his rifles between the two by fours, you know. And he'd nail it back up an you couldn't tell it. And when those state polices I mean they came in droves and that...that was a scary for a child.

B: So you remember state police coming to your home?

BD: Yes...yes I do.

B: What was...

BD: Cause you don't forget even if your small you don't forget when you scared or...yes I remember that. and I also remember course it was rather thickly populated for a little town and they had machine guns back up on this mountains...have they ever...down you know where you go around Blackberry and uh...they'd shoot across the river to McCarr. Cause McCarr was a running coal and uh...we had a neighbor she was sick all the time, that lived right above...the houses was right up to the crossing almost. And uh... when they...there wasn't one man that had a basement and everybody had to go to the basement. It was always so funny us kids...they would carry that woman on a cot down in the basement of that one house that had a basement. On this upper end he had uh...it was uh ...oh his name was Dean, he had a grocery store right on the corner where the church house sits almost now but it was up closer you know to the curb. And that's where that everybody would go. Is to his cellar. And us kids had a ball. But they would carry every time when that shooting would start uh...they'd carry her on a cot down to that basement.

B: You say the children had a ball...

BD: Oh yes...

B: you play or...

BD: Yes cause and it scared but you know how kids are. But that's where we'd go to that. I won't ever forget that either. It wasn't that uh...we knew you know that it was the union men on this side of the river shooting across over to McCarr but we still that was one place that everybody was told to go.

B: So it was the union men that had the machine guns?

BD: Uh-huh.

B: Okay.

BD: Yes it was.

B: Did they ever tell you had they got that machine gun?

BD: No. Now that they didn't now whether uh...whether it was sent in I don't know. But they had a machine gun cause my daddy would laugh about it, he said "they was a watching and there is...used to be a big store...there's a bridge use to go across and then the big railroad bridge goes across there at McCarr. Well he said that they was all laying there watching there you know see how many people, men or whatever was coming in and out. And it was in the fall of the year this one time he was telling us an duh...said there was man, he knew it was a man came out with a woman's dress on to get wood and said uh...he kept telling them men said now that is not a woman, that's a man, said now watch how he acts. And he said they tore loose shooting. And he said that man threw that wood down and grabbed that dress up and run back into that building. And I think that building...well I know it's tore down but it used to be a two story. It was sort of a company store underneath. And we all...he always thought he who that was. And I think he did. Because we later heard that they did...that there was scabbing, came in here scabbing. This person did. But I guess you know they had...there was a lot of time that they must have enjoyed. They had to do something. and to keep it jolly between the men when they were laying out in the mountains. Uh..he would tell them so many things that would happen. And said one night a big old dog. said they was all laying uh...you know they couldn't have no fires or any...and said this big dog come walking real easy and said they had a colored man with them. And said he knew, that colored man knew that he'd been caught. And he started screaming and hollering. And my daddy said he never heard so much laughin' in his life when they found out it was this big shepherd dog. Had come through he mountains some way or other. But you know I guess they had to do things like that.

B: Oh my goodness. What happen in the days following the massacre? That's one thing that we really been able...

BD: Well it was just a scramble staying out of site and uh...cause they knew they'd all be arrested or as many as they could arrest would be. But no uh...you don't hear...a whole...you didn't hear a whole lot about it. Cause everybody was tense and stayed afraid. Knowing what could happen. THey could have blown Matewan off the map. If you know the governor being against them. Everything else was against them, so...no you didn't hear too much. It quietened down considerable. But then they started back just like uh...going...where they got the machine gun I have no idea. But now I bet Aunt Meg could remember that instant where they shot from that mountain all the time, because Stony Mountain had closed down that was there below Warm Holler.

B: Okay. What happened to arrest the men for...when they took them to trial...when they...they tried all twenty-two men for the killing of the Felts brother? Did they come to Matewan and arrest people? Is that how...

BD: Oh yes, Lord honey they'd pull you out they didn't come in and just calmly arrest somebody like they do now a day.

B: What did they do?

BD: They dragged you out if they caught you know and eventually they...they got as many as they could.

B: Did they manage to get a hold of your father?

BD: Oh yes...yes.

B: How did they catch him? Did he ever tell how they caught him? BD: He eventually came out of the mountains he had to. You can't run all your life...(tape cuts off)

B: Okay um...I guess my question that follows from there is what did your father ever tell you about the Matewan Massacre trial? Did he ever talk to you about that time period when they were all on trial?

BD: No uh...course they kept them all separated all the time. And their just...it didn't matter what kind of proof you had or what you didn't have if they got the right jury. Which I guess the jury is sort of afraid not to sentence the men. From what you, you know...the way things were. Uh...nobody could have ever got a fair trial. But I guess they were guilty so like my daddy he knew...he ...he was a part of it and he couldn't run all of his life. So why not give up. Couldn't just serve your time. But he awa uh...he got...course got off on good time cause he was a model prisoner. So he just had to spend about three and a half years.

B: It was reported that the Matewan Massacre trial that they were acquitted. So what was your father finally put in jail for? What did they...

BD: His part in the Matewan Massacre.

B: They actually...even after they'd all been acquitted they went back and tried him for that again?

BD: They was uh...more than him sent up when he went. But I can't tell you their names and I've heard him talk bout them so much.

B: Do you know what year they finally sent him up for that?

BD: Uh...was it 22...22, 23...I...not unless I sit down and figure it out.

B: Okay. Well I'll go ahead and ask you the story then about the day that Sid and Ed went to Welch. Would you tell me about that day?

BD: Yes uh...my mother and daddy was with them and they were not to bring any guns with them they were sworn to that nobody would have guns and when they uh...got up there uh...Ed and Sid and their wives was at the top of the steps mom said and her and my daddy had got, she said maybe two or three steps from the hedges and uh...Sid I believe is the one that rolled down at her feet. They just started shooting the minute they got to the top of the steps mom said. And when they...when they started the shooting my daddy run and got behind the hedges there at the court house and he uh...got across the train was still standing there that they...that's how they quick they killed them. And he got back on the train and the conductor put him in the women's toilet. And uh...hid him and they got to searching for him and the same bunch that killed them killed Ed and Sid come on the train and was a hunting for him and they got to the womens toilet and wanted the conductor to open it and my daddy said he heard the conductor say no he couldn't open that because it was private and some lady was in there or something and they didn't make him open it then. So when they got off and the train pulled out and he knew that you know that he'd have to come back so he caught a train back and that's when a lady that was uh...worked the teletype in Williamson she sent a message that if he was on the train to put him off somewhere before he got to Williamson that they were there waiting for him. So that's when he had to go to the mountains again and live 'til he came in and gave himself up.

B: What happened to your mother? Did your mother eventually catch back up with your father that day or how did she...

BD: Listen my mother was tough as a nail. There wasn't she had lived through so much anyway um she came on back home on the train with these other two wives and she knew my daddy as long as he was still alive he would come back you know.

B: Did she ever say how there's some reports about how Jesse and Sally reacted at the time of the shooting but did your mother say

BD: Mommy said that uh when they were screaming she said never heard such screaming in her life but then I don't know

B:you just said off tape Mrs. Damron that it was a wonderthta the wives weren't killed

B: Probably had to be...

BD: And she had lived through so much anyway. Uh...but she came on back home on the train with uh...these other two wives. And uh...she knew my daddy as long as he was a live he'd be back you know.

B: Did she ever say how...there's some reports about how Jessie and Sally reacted at the time of the shooting, but did your mother ever...

BD: Mommy said that uh...when they...they were screaming...she said she never heard such screaming in her life. But then I don't know...(Tape cuts off)

B: You just said off tape um...Mrs. Damron that it was a wonder that the wives weren't killed. That's one of the things that the people have pointed to, to say that the men that shot Sid and Ed were deliberately there to kill them that day.

BD: Uh-huh. They were.

B: Um...you said something off tape also before about they were yelling about your father. Would you say what they were saying?

BD: They just said to get John Collins. Get John Collins.

B: Did your father...

BD: Because they knew he'd come up there with them. But see they didn't get in the courthouse. They were shot at...just before you go in the door.

B: Okay. So that we'd have it on tape would you tell me why those men weren't armed that day? Why Sid and Ed, and your father were not armed?

BD: They were ask...they were called and ask to come to the Welch court house and uh...they told them not to...if said if they didn't bring guns they wouldn't have guns. There wouldn't be no guns. Now that was assured to them by the judge and all the officers up there. You know they had no idea they were gonna get shot down like that. Or they wouldn't have gone. But uh...that's why they didn't take guns with them.

B: We've heard...

BD: So there was no guns on either one of the men or nor on my daddy either.

B: We've heard stories that men in Matewan here tried to get them to take guns with them that morning.

BD: Didn't want them to make...they tried to get them not to believe what they were told, but you had...I guess they thought they'd fought and killed and that maybe it was time that they wanted to settle it. I don't know. But they...yes they were uh...you know naturally they's a hot headed bunch of men at that time, and trying to tell them that they shouldn't go. They shouldn't of. But they went...they got killed. God had to be with my daddy. What he's went through it was something to...

B: Did he ever identify the men that killed Sid and Ed...

BD: No...he didn't know any of them.

B: Okay. Because it's been written down the C.E. Lively was with them...

BD: Yeah well but they...I would say that if he wasn't there he had him there. But now I never did hear my daddy say...of course I guess he didn't' even have time to look or think to save his own life. It was just luck that they were wasn't right behind...you know with them. But I think my mom said she'd went up at two or three of the court house steps.

B: We've heard one story that Sally Chambers started beating one of the men with her parasol.

BD: Well she may of had, but my mother all her thoughts was my daddy, you know, would he be saved or would he make it. And I... and Sid laying in her feet I never did hear her say but she did I can remember her saying how the woman screamed and you know.

B: Did she ever say who got the woman back out of Welch..

BD: No unt-uh...not unless they caught the train back. Whether they did I don't know. I don't even...I can't remember how mom...I presumed they came back on the train. There was no transportation then, but a train.

B: Okay. Um...this would be a good time to go through a list of names and just see if what your father had ever told you abut them. What did your father think of Sid Hatfield?

BD: He thought he was a good man.

B: Now we've heard reports that Sid especially intended that the Baldwin-Felts would have never gotten out of Matewan alive. That that was something that he and the men had decided.

BD: That they decided on, they did. I've heard him say that.

B: How about Cable Testerman?

BD: Uh...he wasn't uh...according to my daddy he wasn't vile and a vicious person. And it's surprising that he even got killed.

B: We've been wondering uh...when historians try to piece things together um...did your father ever say perhaps that did Cable Testerman hope that wasn't going to be shooting that day or did he support the idea?

BD: I'd say he supported the idea. You know he knew about it.

B: Okay.

BD: Because he was a town police, and I'd say he evidently had to know about it because now they were all ready for him when that train pulled up. Cause see they shot them as they got off of the train.

B: How about Isaac Brewer?

BD: He was a mean man. laughing

B: We've heard that.

BD: He...I my daddy said he was mean. He'd kill and laugh. That's not good.

B: Now we've...in the reports that we've read Isaac Brewer turned state's evidence during the trial, did your father tell you about that?

BD: Well I think I have heard him mention yeah.

B: Okay. How abut Ed Chambers? What did your father ever say about Ed? He was so young when all this happened?

BD: Yes uh...yes I think that's what hurt the men the most, because he was so young and was so behind them. And his whole family. and they seemed it just they lost him looked like for nothing you know. That...the whole Chambers family were a good family. Nobody ever had no quarrel against them. I mean they seemed to want to help people.

B: How about Reece Chambers? We've heard that he was the one that probably killed the most that day?

BD: Now he was a tough one. And I can remember him...he was a sort of a little short guy. Uncle Reece we always call him. He didn't care for anything I mean the way I remember Uncle Reece he was funny uh...and all the time you know joking and carrying on but those kind will kill you. But I can remember him real well.

B: We've heard stories about him that years later he was convinced that the Baldwin Felts agents would come back for him or the police would come and get him. Did you ever hear any stories about that? What did you hear about him?

BD: Uh...no and at the time not unless....no. His mind may have gotten bad but no I don't remember.

B: Did your father ever say was he suppose to go with um...Sid and Ed and your father they day that they went to Welch?

BD: No I never heard that. Um-hum.

B: Okay. How about Fred Burgraff? We've heard some stories that say that Fred Burgraff or Isaac Brewer was the one that killed the Hatfield that ran the hotel. Did you ever hear anything about them?

BD: Uh...well yes some but I can't...I just don't remember exactly but you...you know you hear talk. But I don't remember exactly how that uh...my daddy wudn't bad to talk about uh...what other men did. That was something...he was just mum on...and never talk abut anybody. He seemed to find a little good in everybody. That was...

B: How about some of the people I guess one of the things that came up after Sid and Ed's death was they call it the coal mining wars.

BD: Yes.

B: Uh...was your father involved in any of that or he was probably in prison by that time.

BD: Yes he stayed those three and a half years. But then the only other part that ever he uh...was when uh...he had gotten back from prison when uh...the Blair Mountain thing. The last see episode happened over there. And uh...he gave...he led a Farmer uh..their name was Farmers from Delbarton now they knew poppy you know always been into that stuff. And they came over to borrow some of his riffles, and the riffle that he carried all through...it was a high powered uh...that he had helped dearly too. He let them take that one I know and uh...and they took it...they...finally they arrested a bunch over there. And they took his rifle and he never did get that rifle back. And that always broke his heart over that. But he didn't you know at that time he didn't' have no part in that.

B: Okay. Did he ever say anything about what he thought about the Captain Brockus?

BD: I've heard him...I have heard that name. Yes...yes.

B: Is there anything that comes to mind about that man? I've interviewed one person Jenny Grimmett and she said that she wanted to say that she remember her father saying that Brockus said miners should be treated like the animals they were. Like ground hogs in a hole. Did you ever hear that statement?

BD: Well now uh...no. But my...I know my daddy didn't like him. And as I said he wasn't to bad to...even though he didn't like somebody he never talked to mean about them.

B: How about Don Chafin?

BD: Uh...yes I've heard him talk about him. I've...I guess he...I don't know whether...can't remember. But I...course I've heard him talk abut him, alot.

B: Was it...you said off the tape...

BD: You can remember those names very...familiar names and.

B: How about Bill Blizzard? Would you tell some about him

BD: Oh my daddy loved him, he really did. Even uh...you know when the miners pension when they begin getting miners pension he would contact my daddy on men that would apply for it here to, if they were against the union and all my daddy would have to do is write back they was for or against at the time they were doing all this. But uh...my daddy wouldn't...eventually they all become union members, but uh...some he...he'd give a bad rep for and some he gave good. I remember...

B: So they were a lot of memories...

BD: Al Hoskins, have you ever heard anything of Al Hoskins in all your...well he was uh...rather and he lived in Matewan right with the Chambers and all and all but he wasn't for the union and he applied. But he didn't get it. But my daddy thought the world of Blizzard. And they stayed in contact now all those years you know.

B: Did your father ever say anything...apparently Bill Blizzard was tried for treason after the coal mining wars, did your father ever tell you anything about that?

BD: No uh...no he just you know they were uh...always uh...fighting for the same cause and uh...I don't...he wouldn't of turned against him I don't think for any reason.

B: Okay. What did your father think this is a little bit later, but what did your father think of John L. Lewis?

BD: Thought he was the most wonderful person in the world?

B: Really?

BD: Wish we had somebody like him now. Oh gracious yes. I remember when they first came in uh...my daddy came home and told us all that they were trying...him and the union people were coming back in and was trying to organize and that worried my mother to death for the longest time. Afraid that we'd have to go through that all again and again. But John L. really brought them to their knees. I'll tell you he was a savior for the poor people. The miners were like dogs, treated like dogs, talked to like dogs. It was awful I hate to see that come again. But I'm afraid now it may not be that bad but uh...I'm afraid they're going to get weak, weak, and weaker. But the younger ones they'll find out. Awful lot of blood's been spilt for the union for these younger generation to give it up and you know. But uh...that's alright if that's the way they'd see it.

B: How about uh...Runey and Kingy? Did your father ever mention them?

BD: Uh...yes...yes they were lawyers. Now uh...you know I would say I don't know and I'd...this reason I said I'd love to have a copy of all those trials. Now whether they sent lawyers why yes they had sent lawyers to Mingo...to Williamson.

B: How about uh...Harold Houston? Did your father....

BD: I've heard him...I've heard him talk about him but I couldn't tell you exactly what but I you know I can remember the names. Remember all those names. Get you...you almost forget the good ones and the bad ones. Only the real, real bad ones, and the real, real, good ones.

B: Who were the real, real, bad ones?

BD: Oh uh...naturally with all the thugs they sent in here and uh...Lively and he's the one that sent up about all the thugs in and of course uh...the state police. I've...they sent them in here you know just to misentreat the people which that was something we seldom ever saw, was a state police 'till that. And then you became familiar with state police cause we'd never seen them and this you know we'd had deputy sheriffs and all that.

B: As children apparently with the lines drawn the way they ere how did parents teach their children who to trust? I mean your father was out of the notorious character probably as far as the law was concerned so how did...

BD: Oh yeah we were made fun of. They called us red necks. The scabs did because the union men wore those red handkerchiefs, and uh...they the scabs would pass in the house down here uh...I remember that real well and they would you know make fun of us and call us red necks. But eventually everybody became friends. Even the scabs in the end uh...eventually we were neighbors. And we became friends But you kept that in the back of your mind, you sure did.

B: Seems that there was some long memories form this area?

BD: You better believe there was. Uh...some of the people that treated us like that uh...we lived next door to and became close friends but you kept that in the back of your mind, because you hated to be made fun of, but they did. They had the ups on us and course the fighting and everything began dying down and the scabs that came in they did...they made fun of us and call us red necks.

B: One thing they showed in...in the movie Matewan was that they brought in black and Italian scabs, did your father ever tell you about that?

BD: Yes uh...across the river you know there was some mines blowed up over there uh...of course I think that how come that mine to blow up uh...mostly Italians and colored was a working it but somebody was gonna rob the pay roll that day, and there was a lot of men killed up Glen Allen. But that's...yes that they did uh ...that's where what few colored people lived. And I'll tell you something else uh...we had a lot of southerners brought in from Alabama and uh...you looked at all of them through later years and all neighbors of you know around here and you though now they came in scabbing. But they...they benefited from the union after they did get it uh...but now the colored they all settled in one territory you know like it was back then. And but we got a bunch of southerners. All Tennessee, Alabama uh..many Carolinians and you ever saw I remember them and I still remember.

B: Do you think that there'd been some reports that these men didn't know what they know what they were being brought in here for? Did they know?

BD: I doubt if they did, I don't know. But I would...I doubt if they did.

B: We've had one man who's father was uh...was already here but was Italian and spoke several languages that they tried to get some of the Italian scabs to come over to the union, did you ever hear anything about that?

BD: Oh you know they did. And of course eventually when after they began organizing eventually they did but uh...now I know my daddy talked about having some colored men with them fighting with them when they were the first time they tried to organize. In the 20 You know 1920...21.

B: Were they...were they men that were from around here that the blacks?

BD: Uh...evidently there were uh...because they fought with my daddy.

B: Did he ever...

BD: Cause he always had a lot of fun out of him.

B: Why was that?

BD: Well you know how scary colored folks are back then any way. And uh...yeah but he was...would never be mean to one cause he well liked by everybody. But he always got uh...you now kid them and aggravate them, and get a lot of fun out of them.

B: Did he ever tell you any of their names? Because that's one thing...

BD: Uh...yes I have heard him say but uh...and you know I wonder if Aunt Mag remembers any of the names, of the colored men that fought with them. Because Uncle Steve was uh...I know with them a lot of time. And poppy would tell us tales about a how you know these colored people men were but they hung with them, some of them. But they had all...must have already you know been here they wasn't brought in. They migrated in here I guess. Cause we don't have very many and never did have too many here.

B: How long did your father work in the mines say after the union was legalized I mean how...how much longer did he work?

BD: That's the only place he ever worked was the mines and..... (speaks to husband) Olie did he retire in the sixties, fifties, in the fifties yeah, wasn't it? Forties or fifties, well lets see I graduated in thirty-nine...must have been in the fifties.

B: Okay...so he worked all of his life as a miner?

BD: As a miner uh-huh.

B: Did he work as a miner after he became the president of the union local?

BD: Um-hum...worked at Junior...up Junior then he worked at a place called number six right up here where the...that coal plant is now. Yeah he worked in the mines all his life.

B: This is tape two of Bertha Damron interview August 2nd, 1989, I guess my next question Mrs. Damron is before the union was legalized the depression had already hit, was it difficult for men like your father to get work in the mines?

BD: Oh my God yes. They'd got for weeks and he wouldn't get a days work you now. And listen that was one of the toughest times you could have ever lived through. If we hadn't...we gardened of course we had to go to the mountains you know up this holler here. And raise the biggest...all of our food just about it. And he butchered a lot. He uh...we had a slaughter house. And uh...he would butcher cattle and hogs and uh...for people and for himself. And he'd..he'd delivered in wagons uh...mommy would keep uh...feed sacks and she'd boil those out real white and he would lay that uh...in that wagon uh...those white feed sacks, feed cloths and he'd cut his meet and put it in trays and things and uh...and then put the feed toss over it. He'd sale during the depression. Get what he could. Cause at that time there was ten of us.

B: Oh my goodness. Now I guess he...that was kind of work on demand because he didn't have any refrigeration.

BD: No. Well we had a ice box.

B: Okay.

BD: Put a big chunk of ice up here on top and we...you've never seen one of the old fashion ice box or...

B: Actually I have...

BD: Yeah...

B: My grandmother had one...

BD: Yeah.

B: Uh...where did that ice come from? Where did they get it?

BD: They delivered it uh...from Matewan I can't uh...you know I don't know where that ice was shipped in here but now back before then they would take the ice out of the rivers and store it in a storage house. They'd build a little house and put saw dusts or whatever and they would chop ice out of the river and uh...put it in that little house, just a small house.

B: We've heard stories that the Tug here used to freeze... fo

BD: Oh God I reckon. It would freeze that they'd cut enough the ice out.

B: About can..

BD: Put it in the ice house they called it.

B: How thick of a chunk would it be?

BD: A good size. We don't have winters like that no more. Because it's I think it's because of so many vehicles and trains and our life style has just changed. I...I have seen Tug River freeze so hard you could walk across, it you didn't need no bridge.

B: Was there ever any attempt by the companies to black list your father? You know to keep him from working?

BD: No unt-uh...not that we know of. Now one time uh...he broke ...broke his leg in the mines and uh...when he was uh...well he would try to do odd jobs. So Mr. Enbolsen uh...I went to school with his children. He was manager over the stores at Red Jacket and uh...he came down one day and ask my daddy if he'd clean a calf. They needed some veal. And poppy told him yes to bring it on down and they...he did. And they turned him into compensation. And we took his check and we had no way...no money at all coming in. But I...the year I graduated in May of '39 and uh...I had to have a job cause I'd just worked around for people. And I went up to the big office on the hill where Mr. Enbolsen was over the store and I ask him for a job, he gave me a job but I know that he always felt that he did us an in justice with poppy and that many children and for if he hadn't of done that I wouldn't have got that job. I always felt like I wasn't and then I worked for Red Jacket for fifteen years after that. But I always and you know I went there with not even a dream about that. Cause that happened back years before but he gave me a job at Red Jacket.

B: Did you work after you got married?

BD: Um-hum oh yes. I've worked 32 years in public .

B: Uh...when did you get married?

BD: 1941. The 7th of April in 41.

B: Did your husband serve in the war?

BD: Um-hum. He was a Marine. And my first child was born...we was married almost four year and of all times I got pregnant just before he went in service and she was born while he was over seas.

B: When did he go in the service?

BD: Uh...1944 wasn't it Olie? I had a son killed in the mines. No...she's just getting our life...our history.

B: You had a son killed in the mines?

BD: Uh-huh. He was uh..when he finished school he went in the Marines and was in Vietnam and got...was wounded. He was on the ship Sanctuary for a long time. And they brought him back to Bethesda, Maryland to the high school. And they'd let him come home maybe for two months at a time. Or three and then he'd have to report back. And uh...when he would come home he'd want to work. And I uh...Damon Browning was superintendent of the mines up there and Bill Bo would go up and aggravate him. Try you know wanting to work while he was home. And uh...Damon knew we didn't want him in the mines. And he called me at the store and told me...said Bill Bo's aggravating me to death wanting to work around extra said uh...would you and Olie care. And I said well I don't know he's twenty-one and he's served his country and or what can you do, said you can't tell a child what to do all of it's life. He said well if you don't care said tell him to come out tomorrow. So I come through the house and he was out there tearing up a fence and fixing it and I kept watching him and long time I debated whether to tell him and I finally thought well I can't cover him all of his life so I called him up and he anyway he went to work it tickled him to death. He worked two months and got killed on the outside.

B: How did it happen? Was it just a freak accident?

BD: I...he was uh...course they called them green cabs you know their suppose to have somebody with them every minute and it's where you go...start up the mountain there use to be a mines there right above those houses there before you start up the hill and they had uh...a tipple there that they'd you know would dump coal they'd bring the coal out and dump it and the trucks would haul it away and there was an office building there and at five o'clock my brother came by he drove a school bus and Bill Bo was sweeping the office out and waved at him and nobody never did see him after that. There was a scoop behind the building and the tracks came out and there was uh...uh...supplies on up you know and they found him under that scoop sitting there. And they...all the men said that somebody had to run that up on him. Looked like he had...he was left handed and uh...looked like he was gonna scotch it. Because it was his right hand and why you know that his hand it run up on his arm and killed him. And he laid there they were...they hunted, and they hunted, and they hunted for him and his car was sitting there and his cover alls was hanging there, and his lunch bucket was there and they knew he was somewhere there and finally they found him and his light was still on. You know the miners light. Killed him.

B: What year was that?

BD: Uh...1970. My husband lost his arm uh...November the 24th, of 69, deer hunting, someone shot him. And he got killed November the 24th, the next year, same day. And I thought was such a you know I guess happened on the same day one year later. But that was terrible.

B: Where had he served in Vietnam? Do you know? Did he ever talk about it?

BD: Oh yes. I even have a tape that he made and sent me while he was on that ship and uh...Lord I can't remember. I heard Olie talking about something the other day about...Olie where'd...he was in battle I don't know how many times.

B: Well where did your husband serve during World War II?

BD: Uh...he was at Pearl Harbor.

B: Okay.

BD: He spent most of his time in the Pear [sic] Harbor.

B: Did your father ever...one of the things that um...people doing research on that early uh...mine workers union was to see if there was ever any connection in the early years with the I.W.W. Do you know what the I.W.W. was?

BD: Uh...yes but I don't...if it was I never heard of it. I mean being in any connection what so ever. Cause I know you know my daddy being uh...president I think he would have known. I never did...did you ever hear that it was connected in any way?

B: Well we heard one story that an I.W.W., former I.W.W. organizer had cone [sic] to this area during the coal mining war. And was killed Chafin...not long after he arrived. So...

BD: Now that could of happened. Back then anything could of happened.

B: We heard a story that Chafin's deputies uh...when Blizzard was in jail when Chafin was holding Blizzard that two deputies killed a young boy and dumped his body in front of Blizzard's cell and scared him. Did you ever hear about that story?

BD: I think I have.

B: Chafin sounds like a rather ruthless character, did your father ever talk about him?

BD: Yeah you know.

B: Okay. Um...I'll ask just a couple more quick questions and then unless is there anything that I haven't ask you today that you'd like to put on record about...

BD: I don't think so...

B: Okay. Um...one of the things that we like to trace back is family origins. Um...was your father and your mothers family how long had those families been in the Mohawk area?

BD: My mother was borned in Greenbier.

B: okay

BD: Uh...she uh...she remembered a uh...the Greenbier uh...well the uh..springs they called them then. She left there when...they moved to Wyoming when she was twelve years old. Now my daddy was born and raised uh...in McDowell uh...his mother was a West from over at Hanover or over at the big brand we used to call it. Uh..but he was raised there. And my mother said that they were real close neighbors we use to go through there and she'd show me where they lived and then she'd show me where my daddy lived. And they didn't even know one another. Uh...eh was 25 and she was 23 when they married. Same age me and my husband were when we married.

B: My next question was gonna be did you know your parents birthdates?

BD: Oh yes...

B: Could you tell me those?

BD: Uh...my mother was borned uh...18...lets see 1884 and my daddy was borned in 1882. March the 22nd and my mother April the 18th. I remember their birthdays.

B: Could you spell your mothers maiden name for me.

BD: B.I.R.C.H.F.I.E.L.D.

B: The last question well I have two questions actually to be honest uh...was there ever any talk about the Hatfield and McCoy feud by the time you all lived in this area?

BD: yes, yes uh..the only thing that my daddy, the Hatfield's were so ruthless they were just dangerous. He said they just assumed to go in and throw a man out of bed and get in bed with his wife. And my daddy didn't like things like that and he did not have nothing to do with them. And I think he stayed that far away from them. Cause he said those were terrible people. Now they might have been a good one or two out of them. But now he seemed to think the McCoy's were uh...decent bunch of people you know. But oh he just told us some of the awfulest tales of how they would od people. They killed uh...two young men right across the road there and hung them up in a barn.

B: I haven't heard that story..

BD: yeah

B: Was this during the feud or...

BD: Yes uh-huh.

B: You wouldn't have known who those young men were...

BD: No, and I don't think I never did hear him say but uh...they was a barn that sit there it belonged to Uncle Ebb Steel he lived here in across where the football field is and uh...they hung them up there. They always said that it was haunted down through there when I was a growing up. It scared you to death.

B: I guess uh...my next question would be were there ever any Civil War stories that were passed down in your family?

BD: No there wasn't. unt uh

B: Okay.

BD: Sure wasn't and uh..'course now my father's his stupid came into North Carolina uh...from England and then...but he both his mother and his my...fathers grandmother and father died when he was rather young and he was raised by another family.

B: Did your father's mother die? Is that how John and Steve came to have a different mother.

BD: Unt-uh...no...

B: Did they divorce?

BD: Uh-huh.

B: That was pretty rare back then..

BD: Yes it was...and uh...my daddy was uh...two years old. My grandma...we always called her Granny Wes.

B: Okay.

BD: And we called the uh...Uncle Steve's mother Granny Collins.

B: Okay.

BD: And poppy was two years old. My grandmother Wes would tell us and laugh abut it and my grandfather, Wayne Collins, went uh...to get him and she said that he was nursin' the breast.

B: Um-hum.

BD: And he was two years old and he...my Grandpa uh...took him away from her and uh...she never did see him again 'till he was twenty-two years old and she said she looked out one day and she saw this young man comin' and she said I knew that that was my son John.

B: Un-hun. Um. Had she ever remarried?

BD: Un-hun. She married a Cline and they owned uh...over where Bailey Lake is now, they owned Shell and all or gas wells and land. He was uh...she had three sons.

B: Un-hun

BD: After she married the Cline.

B: Un-hun.

BD: And uh...they inherited all that over in there.

B: I don't suppose there was ever any explanation about why they divorced?

BD: Hun-un.

B: Back then?

BD: No, but she was a beautiful woman, now who was to blame, I don't know. (laughing) Well she was. She was a beautiful woman. My daddy's mother and the rest is...was a...back then...over in there they just you know, close to Baileysville and all them places over there, Pineville. They were a tough bunch of people but they were good people.

B: Un-hun. Well, thank you for talking to me today.

BD: Um-hum. (tape cuts off)

BD: My daddy took him in the mines when he was about fourteen.

B: Uh-huh.

BD: And uh..yeah, and they would walk from North Matewan.

B: Uh-huh.

BD: Cause we had moved to North Matewan by then.

B: Okay.

BD: To Red Jacket.

B: Un-hun.

BD: Un-hun.

B: Okay.

BD: He worked at Junior Mines.

B: You said your father would have to get up at three and four o'clock in the morning.

BD: In the morning. Un-hun.

B: And why did he have to walk?

BD: Well uh...he didn't have the money to ride the bus and he wasn't allowed to ride with anybody else.

B: Un-hun.

BD: You either had to ride the bus that the Square (squire) owned.

B: Un-hun.

BD: Or either walk so he walked.

B: Hum. Would men be arrested if they tried to get a ride with somebody else?

BD: I would say they...I would think they would or either be talked to or either the people that owned the car might, which was very few back then...

B: Un-hun.

BD: They would have been treated mean.

B: un-hun. Okay. Alright um...thank you for letting me add that. I wanted to get that story on here.

BD: Yes mam.

B: But um...was this when Greenway Hatfield was sheriff?

BD: Sheriff. Un-hun.

B: WHat kind of man was he? We've heard different kinds of stories about Greenway.

BD: He was...he was hated by the...the run of the mill people.

B: Un-hun.

BD: Yeah.

B: Un-hun.

BD: Yeah.

B: Okay.

BD: Um...that's what Hatfield Bottom's named after. He had a farm there and brought...he'd bring the prisoners up to work on that farm you know.

B: Um-hum. Was he...he was corrupt...

BD: He sure was. Very...very much so.

B: Okay. The...the one last quick question that I uh...have been interested in asking people is about the flu epidemic. You probably wwere born either in the middle of it or right before it. Do you know?

BD: Just uh...right after it.

B: Really?

BD: Un-hun.

B: Okay. What...what kind of stories did they tell you about... about that?

BD: Well, death...death...death. Wasn't too many survived it.

B: Un-hun.

BD: Um...that's what killed my sister-in-law's mother that lived...she live up Newtown. Up in there somewhere.

B: Um-hum.

BD: But, very few lived during that flu epidemic.

B: Um-hum. Okay.

BD: And then we had a small pox scare uh...that everybody had to be. We had two or three families that had small pox.

B: Un-hun.

BD: I remember that and the doctors all comin' and inoculating us then.

B: Were you a child then or...

BD: Yeah.

B: Okay. Do you remember what year that was?

BD: I still got my scar. (laughing)

B: Oh, my goodness.

BD: Right there.

B: Um...

BD: And we were just little fellows.

B: Um-hum.

BD: Yeah.

B: Okay. Well, thank you for letting me add that.

BD: Un-hun.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection