Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Ernest Hatfield Interview

John Hennen: Okay, alright Mr. McCoy could you give me your uh...

Ernest Hatfield: I'm a Hatfield.

J: Oh, I'm sorry. (starts laughing)

EH: Laughs.

J: I've got John McCoy on my mind. (laughs) Mr. Hatfield could you give me your uh...your full name and tell me when and where you born please?

EH: Ernest Hatfield, born April 17, 19 and 17 at McCarr, Kentucky.

J: Alright and where is McCarr, Kentucky in relation to Matewan?

EH: It's about uh...mile and a half two miles on the Kentucky side of Matewan, above Matewan.

J: Okay, Did you have brothers and sisters?

EH: I, I have one brother and four sisters.

J: Four sisters, Okay,...How about your, your folks, what kind of work did you father do for a...

EH: My dad worked around the mines for several years and then he went into the grocery business at a grocery store in Matewan.

J: In Matewan.

EH: Yeah.

J: What was the name of that store?

EH: Hatfield's Cash Store.

J: Okay, and where was that located?

EH: That was located on Route 49 going toward Thacker, just across Mate Creek.

J: Okay, How about your mother was she employed or did she work around home?

EH: No, she was, she was a housewife.

J: Did you all have any agricultural pursuits, garden, small plot or anything like that?

EH: We uh...farmed some, yes sir. And uh...had gardens.

J: Did you sell any of your produce, or strictly for your own use?

EH: We sold some and of course used a lot of it ourself.

J: Was that pretty common in the area, people would uh...have supplementary income from their....

EH: About, about everybody had gardens at that time and some of them uh...didn't work at anything else and farmed, sold their produce.

J: Uh-huh. Did your father work as a miner or was he management position, or both?

EH: He worked as a miner.

J: And when, about approximately when did he retire, or leave the mines?

EH: Dad left the mines uh....about 19 and 30 I'd say.

J: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And he'd been a miner for a good number of years?

EH: Yeah.

J: Um...Could you give me your parents uh...full names and your mother's maiden name?

EH: My dad's name was V.T. Hatfield, Valentine Hatfield, my mother's name was Ethel Scott. Her maiden name.

J: Now Valentine Hatfield is, is uh...as I recall one the names of the prominent Hatfields in the Hatfield and McCoy feud here, is this, was your father a namesake of this man or was...

EH: Uh...my, my father's uh...was named after his grandfather. Now there, there's several Valentine Hatfields. Uh...but uh... my, my relatives never had any part in the Hatfield McCoy feud. Now my grandaddy uh...Wallace Hatfield, J.W. Hatfield uh...those three McCoys boys that was killed he uh...hauled them to uh...uh...the Hardy side of the Blackberry Mountain on a corn sled with three yoke of cattle. And that's about the part he played in it.

J: This was after they had been uh...

EH: After they had been shot.

J: Shot. Did you know your grandfather Hatfield?

EH: Yes sir.

J: Did he ever talk much about these incidents, or...

EH: Well, he died. I was just small when he died, he died oh....in the late '20's there.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: I wasn't, was eight or nine years old I guess, but I've heard him talk, you know but a kid, he didn't pay no attention and he's just catch something here and there cause other boys you know they was running around and playing so naturally, a little boy he's gonna get out there and play too.

J: Um-huh. So it's was just sort of a natural thing?

EH: Yeah, Uh-huh.

J: And your mother's maiden name?

EH: Scott, Ethel Scott.

J: Was she uh...a local from this area, or did she move in from somewhere else?

EH: She was, she uh...was raised at, on Narrows Branch uh...up Pond Creek over at Hardy.

J: Uh-huh. Okay, um...did you attend school as a boy?

EH: Yes I did.

J: Where was your school?

EH: I went to McCarr to school. I went to what we'd, what I know as the "Bend in the River", school, and then I went to grade school at Matewan.

J: The "Bend in the River" school, was that in Kentucky?

EH: That's in, in Kentucky, yes. It was a one room school, and of course the McCarr was a one, McCarr was a one room school.

J: Where was the school in Matewan located, the elementary school?

EH: Elementary school was located at uh...you know where, where uh...the Gulf (Solo) station was in Matewan? Going toward Thacker.

J: Okay.

EH: It's when you make the turn to go toward Thacker, uh...your right at the old grade school. That's the one I went to. The grade school today is on up toward the old football field.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: At Matewan.

J: So the old grade school that you attended was in service until approximately when?

EH: Um...that school went out what...that was in the '60's I believe.

J: Okay. So it was in operation for a long time. Pretty long time.

EH: Uh-huh. Yeah. Then they used it as a high school.

J: Okay, you mentioned that you had one brother and four sisters. Is that correct.

EH: Right.

J: Did they stay in this area or did the migrate out of it?

EH: I've got a brother that that's running a Ford agency down in Williamson today.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: And uh...one of my sisters she lives over at Hardy, and the other, another one, she's in a rest home, and the other one is dead. Of course uh...the one, she is retarded, and now she stays here with me.

J: So, generally the family stayed in this area.

EH: Yeah.

J: After you attended elementary school, did you continue to go to Matewan High School?

EH: I went on and graduated from High School in '36.

J: In what year, 1936? Okay. Do you have any recollection as to the size of your high school class, approximate size of the class?

EH: There was, at that time it was the largest class that they ever graduated from Matewan High School. And I believe there was sixty-nine of us.

J: Was this a three year or four high school?

EH: Four year.

J: Now eight, nine or nine, ten, eleventh, and twelveth [sic]?

EH: Nine, Tenth, eleventh, and twelveth [sic].

J: Okay. Now at that time, this question will relate to something that was affecting people all over the country. Um...1936 you graduated just about the middle of the Great Depression I suppose.

EH: Right.

J: What kind of impact generally speaking did the depression have on Matewan and Mingo County?

EH: It was rough around here, people had to...they wasn't much work, people only got, they may get one or two days of work a week where you know, and uh...they had it pretty tough around here.

J: Would that work have been public work with depression programs? New Deal programs?

EH: The mines. Yeah.

J: The mines.

EH: Miners...see there'd be, mining industry all, about all there was in here.

J: So, not a whole lot of WPA work at that time? (Works Progress Administration)

EH: Well, there was some WPA work, yeah. Hadn't been for them I don't know what people would have did.

J: What sort or projects did the WPA carry on around here?

EH: Well, they built that uh...they built a wall, uh...up Mate Creek, from uh...from the bridge, from the railroad bridge up to, to the upper end of town there. Up Mate Creek.

J: How about uh...

EH: And then they built, they built, built the storm sewer coming out of Warm Hollow. They built that in there.

J: Okay, what uh...so you finished high school in 1936, what was your next step, did you go to work right away?

EH: I...I worked with mostly with my dad for a long time. Uh... he'd...there was, everybody had stock in this country. And back then you could uh...you didn't have to have that meat inspected you know. You could butcher and sell it to stores and he'd trade, traffic in cattle and uh...butchered and farmed, anyway to make a dollar. Anyway to make a dollar, haul coal just anything. And uh...I know where that's, I did that for a long time and uh...and we got to hauling uh...he got, he got a truck and we got to hauling uh...feed, flour and stuff from Huntington. And I'd go down there, it was one trip a week. I'd go down there and haul that back.

J: Where did you pick up your feed? At the market there on sixth....?

EH: Well we'd picked it up from Gwinn's Milling Company Building Company Huntington.

J: Oh, yeah. Down by the river there.

EH: Yeah, I believe that's on First avenue isn't it?

J: Uh...it was it's been torn down.

EH: Yeah, at that time, it's not there any more.

J: Yeah, I guess that was the big warehouse district in Huntington at that time.

EH: Yeah, they did a big business and, 'course then you had produce market on down the street there it was between second and third I think. And uh...we, we'd pick up produce and bring it back in. On the way back through Wayne County why we'd uh...pick up eggs, chickens, stuff, you know, to resell.

J: What route did you take was it '52?

EH: '52, '52.

J: What kind of shape was the road in, in those days?

EH: Well, started out it was dirt roads. And then they finally hardtopped it. But I don't recall in what year it was hardtopped.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Five ton...five ton on a truck. At that time, give it all it wanted to go with. You uh...had that eighty-five horsepower motor.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: You'd go up the, go up the hill in just, in first gear and that's the way you had to go down, 'cause you had the old mechanical break at that time.

J: Uh-huh. Did you drive a Ford?

EH: Yeah, yeah it was, it was a Ford.

J: Okay. So did you stay, then you stayed in business with your father for a good number of years?

EH: A good number of years there was...when I went to work for Tug River Grocery Copany [sic] in Williamson, and I worked there a couple of years as a truck driver for them. And my run was in Grundy, Virginia, up in that section.

J: How often would you make that run?

EH: I would go to Grundy one day a week. And I'd go to Knox Creek through Gilbert go down to Gilbert that way, Panther, and uh...over into Jessie's Fork over into Hurley in that section. On a, on a, that was a Monday trip of course then whenever you left '52 on this side of Ieager you had dirt road all the way, and you went to Gilbert section through Knox Creek. If you was lucky you'd uh..you'd do that in a day, most of the time you wasn't that lucky. If you were lucky.

J: When did you get, oh first let me ask you uh...were you in the service during World War II?

EH: No, I wasn't in service. I worked in the mines during that time.

J: So you were employed in the mines all during the war then?

EH: Yeah, my dad and uh...and A. L. Knuckols owned little coal mine.

J: Just a small operation?

EH: Just a small operation. A little truck mine.

J: What was the...how was the mining business around here during World War II?

EH: Oh, it boomed then.

J: Picked up a little.

EH: Oh yeah. You could sell anything that was black. (Laughing)

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Yeah.

J: Was that uh...big days for the union then or?

EH: Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah. I drove uh...I drove ponies in the coal mines.

J: Is that a fact?

EH: Yeah, that was my job.

J: Were there many of...

EH: Yeah...

J: Much of that still around in the late '30's?

EH: There were several mines, at that time, used ponies.

J: Is that right?

EH: Yeah. Yeah.

J: Give me if you could just a rundown on the process of the... of that type of mining.

EH: Well, see where...where they run the...where we run this mine it was uh...the coal was shot from the solid, didn't use a machine, dust auger, and shoot the coal from the solid. And uh...the ponies used what we called a string team. Some places in that mines you know is hilly. You used uh...three ponies is what we call one in the swing, lead pony, swing pony, and a butt pony. And of course you did, where we was working we didn't have too much of that but, uh...Generally just used two.

J: I'll be darned. So when you shot the coal...

EH: It was loaded by hand.

J: Okay. When did the uh...when was that phased out? When did mechanization, for instance, really take over in the mines around here?

EH: Right after the war.

J: Uh-huh. What was business like at that time as you recall?

EH: Business was pretty good there for a long time. Business was pretty good.

J: When did you begin your uh...law enforcement career?

EH: I started out just uh...working on weekends, Saturdays and Sundays. And then uh...I worked at that a while. That was during the, during the time I was working in the mines there uh....I worked at that, that a while. And then I went to work as, with my dad again back in the, we, we fulltime in and around the store hauling in, you know, and we hauled hay out of Ohio. And butchering and you know, first one thing to another then in nineteen and fifty-three I went to work full time for the town of Matewan as Chief of Police. I stayed there sixteen years.

J: You were chief?

EH: I was chief for sixteen years.

J: When you began this weekend work how did you get involved in that? Somebody just come to you and say "we need some help on the weekends?"

EH: Yeah, they needed somebody. They wanted somebody to help to help out on the weekends. And uh...I...for extra money, why, I took the job. And uh...of course that only paid fifty dollars a month then. Extra money.

J: What size of a force did the city, did Matewan have?

EH: At that time?

J: Uh-huh.

EH: With me they had three.

J: Okay. Two full time and...?

EH: Well one of them was just uh...he helped out just in case of an emergency. Most of it you could say was just the chief.

J: Who was the mayor when you came on the force, say when you came on fulltime?

EH: When I came on fulltime? Ira Cooper.

J: Ira Cooper. Now I've heard his name mentioned several times, he was mayor for how long?

EH: Ira Cooper was mayor, he was mayor for a long time and then moved to Huntington. And uh...came back. And then uh...Hubert Perry was mayor of the, by the time he was gone 'til Cooper come back. And I don't recall those years.

J: Uh-huh. When Mr...

EH: After he come back why he was mayor until uh, his death.

J: And approximately when was that? Do you recall?

EH: I'm not sure what year he died in. (Pause) That was in the late fifties.

J: Okay. So was he uh...he must have been a pretty popular guy.

EH: He was.

J: Yeah, just, can you tell me a little bit about him uh...he sounds like a...

EH: He uh...

J: Pretty colorful fellow.

EH: When I first knew Cooper he was state police. Then he got out of state police and went into the bottling business. Bottling soft drinks there in Matewan. And from that he went to selling insurance. And then he got in the hardware business. And was in the hardware business and furniture business in Matewan there for several years.

J: So, was being mayor a fulltime job or would he run, he would have his other businesses going as he was mayor?

EH: Yeah...He had his other business going.

J: Okay. Where was the bottling plant?

EH: All I know is the old...across from the old post office, cross the tracks from the old post office. Over in what I know as the Nenni building.

J: Oh, okay. What was the town of Matewan, what was it like while you were police chief?

EH: It was pretty rough at that time. And uh...and, 'course we got along, but I never did have too bad of trouble as chief of police cause everybody knew me you know. But uh...you'd make several arrests during the month.

J: What size was the force at that time?

EH: When I went back, started out it was three.

J: Still three.

EH: Still three.

J: Did the size of the force...

EH: Yeah you had two fulltime men and one he'd, after he, your third man he worked in the mines and of course, he'd come to work, if he came in from work,late in the evening, sometimes he'd come up and hang around with us, you know. And uh...when I left there, there was only two of us. I went to the sheriff's department and stayed seven years...

J: Who was uh...oh excuse me.

EH: ...left the sheriffs department and went to, to uh...Rawl Sales and stayed ten years as a security guard.

J: So you retired in approximately in 1986?

EH: Yeah, that's right.

J: Okay. Who were some of the other fellows that worked with you on the police force, while you were chief?

EH: Leonard Akers, Curtis Ward,uh...Raymond Perkins, Jim Martin. (Long Pause) While I worked in Matewan, Raymond Perkins was killed there. A woman killed him.

J: Was that in uh...making an arrest, or was it a private thing?

EH: He was going to make an arrest.

J: What was the situation there?

EH: This car, he, he uh...had started up toward Blackberry City, it was after midnight, and I was on, and I was getting ready to go home and he started, he was gonna check everything out and I always changed, took a shower there at the jail and uh...changed uniforms, changed clothes there. And after we'd check the town out, why, I went to take a shower and everything, and he said, well he'd check everything else out and uh...he went up toward Blackberry City. And this car at the mouth of Sulphur Creek went across the crossing there, and was hung up. Uh...so he gets out to see what's going on you know, goes over and there was four in the car, a man and his wife and her daughter, and uh...the girl's boyfriend. So uh...he told me before he died he said, he kinda you know, wasn't killed instantly, but he, he told me that he went to get her out of the car and uh...for some reason didn't get her on out and went to the other side of the car where her husband was, and was getting him and got him out and that's when this woman shot him.

J: Did she ever offer an explanation as to why she shot him?

EH: Uh...no not really.

J: Um...did she go to trial? I assume she went to trial.

EH: Yes, but uh...but uh...she was given two to five (years).

J: Uh-huh...

EH: Uh...in prison, and of course she only pulled about two years. And was paroled out.

J: Uh-huh...Um. When you said uh...you made a general statement a while ago that things were pretty rough in Matewan while you were the chief how, how so? Was there, there gambling going on or prostitution?

EH: Well, there is always in any town especially back then you had places of gambling and you'd have more uh...beer taverns, you know. And uh...more than uh...than they have up in there today. And uh...you'd have a lot of drunks, you know. And you'd arrest some of them and you'd have to fight your way to jail.

J: Uh-huh...

EH: 'Till they knew that you wouldn't take no junk, you know, that you'd fight too. Why, it was pretty rough for a while.

J: Did you generally work alone when the other fellows off somewhere else or did you usually travel in pairs, try to go in pairs?

EH: Of the day, of the day, you see, I'd...I'd...the way we worked it I'd come out early of the morning, by eight o'clock I'd be there. And the other fella, he would come on about twelve, one o'clock, I'd go home and rest a while, then I'd come back and work a while and let, 'til he could go home and eat and rest a while. Then he'd come back to me about six-thirty, seven o'clock and then I'd, we'd work together 'til midnight or better. On, on uh...Saturday nights it was practically all night. That you'd work together.

J: Somebody, I forget who it was, yesterday told me that they thought you were the last of the police chiefs that had to be able to whip everybody in town.

EH: (laughs) Well, I don't know about that, but I've had several battles up there.

J: Was there much bootlegging around here?

EH: Oh yeah!

J: In the fifties and sixties.

EH: Oh yeah, at one time there, there was plenty of bootlegging in the...this neck of the woods.

J: While you were chief, or would this have been earlier or what?

EH: Oh, this was while I was chief and while and, and earlier. Then back during the moonshine days, hey, everybody and his brother sold whiskey.

J: Uh-huh. Was that something that fell into your jurisdiction? Would that have to be, have to be in the town or, or...

EH: Oh you had, you had places that bootlegged in the town, yeah.

J: Uh-huh...

EH: Yeah, but you'd have to search them every once in a while.

J: How would you find, run that down? Would somebody give you a tip?

EH: Yeah, yeah. Somebody would give you a tip, you know. Say, hey, they'd been going to one of those places when somebody would jump on them (smart off to them). And they maybe he'd thought they'd cheated him out of something.

J: Okay. You were telling me about running down bootleg operations, or running down selling bootleg whiskey, could you go through that process again?

EH: Well, like I say, you'd have places they'd go to the whiskey store and, and buy whiskey, you see. Then, after the whiskey store would close, why, they'd...people would, wanted another, buy whiskey or drink of whiskey they'd go to one of those places, you know, and buy it. And, of course, during the day they didn't, when the store was opened, naturally they didn't do too much business you know. Weekends and holidays and things like that is when your bootleg places would do more business.

J: Was there anybody, or group of folks in particular that uh... put out most of the bootleg whiskey or was it small operation all over the place?

EH: Just, just small operations. There's three or four of them, you know, in Matewan. Of course, throughout the county, you know. When you got into Williamson you had several and Delbarton all these little towns, you know.

J: How about gambling, would that run the same way, would that, say be carried on in the back of some of the bars?

EH: Yeah, it carried on in the back of some of the bars. During the time...time I was chief of police of Matewan, on the front streets up there in those places in your bars, we didn't have any gambling then in there. Very little, if any, in fact, maybe a pool game, like nine ball or something like that. But other than that we didn't have any, any gambling in the places. It was all on the...out in the back streets.

J: Did you have people from outlying area come into town on the weekends?

EH: Oh yeah.

J: ...looking for a big time.

EH: Yeah, yeah they'd come in there just to, you know, it's close... like outa' Blackberry, some out of Peter Creek, Red Jacket, that way up Mate Creek, Beech Creek, over on Pigeon Creek.

J: What about prostitution?

EH: We didn't have, we didn't have much trouble with that. Very little.

J: Uh-huh...

EH: We didn't have, we didn't have any houses that could, most, most of your prostitution was in Williamson.

J: Oh, is that right?

EH: Yeah.

J: As you uh... Okay, so you left as police chief in about 1969.

EH: Yeah.

J: And went to work for the sheriff's department in what capacity?

EH: As a deputy.

J: Okay. Was that an elective or an appointed.

EH: No, it was appointed.

J: Who was your, who was your sheriff?

EH: Harry Artis was sheriff when I went.

J: Is that A.r.t.i.s?

EH: Yeah. Yes, A,R,T,I,S.

J: Was it his role to appoint his own deputies?

EH: Yeah, he, he appointed them, and then, of course, the county court had to pass on them, you know.

J: Uh-huh. The county court would vote on the nominations.

EH: Yeah, yeah.

J: Who was county court at that time? I know some of the people ...I'm sure it varied from time to time.

EH: Ben Hamilton was one of 'em. Really, it's changed so much I don't....

J: Uh-huh.

EH: I...I...for sure wouldn't know the rest of 'em. I knew Ben was. Then after Harry's term, why, Tom Chafins was sheriff. He's elected sheriff and I worked under him. I worked under him his term and he started on his second term I worked some under his second term.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: I stayed there seven (7) years.

J: I hear a lot about uh... a fellow who was involved in Mingo County Politics pretty powerful man, as I understand, by the name of Noah Floyd.

EH: Yeah, he was...he was pushin' a big stick whenever I first went to work?

J: Uh-huh.

EH: And uh...as a deputy and he'd been...he'd been, as the old saying is, "push the big stick" for a long time, you know.

J: Yeah. What do you mean by that "push the big...." I mean, I have general idea but...

EH: (Laughing) Well, he...he was the man that everybody...all the rest of the politicians looked up to...to call the shots.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: And uh... on what, who would get a job and who wouldn't, you know.

J: What was his...did he have an official position? He was a state senator at one time.

EH: Yeah, he was state senator.

J: But, as far as Mingo went...

EH: Well, when he was state senator he controlled Mingo County there for a long time, you know.

J: He was also party chairman or something?

EH: Yeah. Yeah, he was chairman at one time.

J: Now, the party of choice around here, I guess, is almost always been Democrat?

EH: Almost. Yeah.

J: Any Republican political work at all.

EH: There's been some years ago.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: There was Republicans. Greenway Hatfield was sheriff of this county one time and he was...he was Republican. And of course, there's been others. Mostly, in my time, mostly Democrats has run Mingo County. I don't mean to say that...there's... any number of good Republicans, you know.

J: Uh-huh. It seems like when there's...when there is one party basically the power, well, not only the...when there is one party, but within the parties themselves, seems to be a lot of jockeying and struggling, for a power base.

EH: Oh yeah.

J: Who...do you remember any particular issues or particular thing that would, that divided the party, at that time, and led to some political infighting or struggles between maybe Noah Floyd and some other people or...?

EH: Uh...nothing in particular, you know, that would be a big issue. Only...they'd get in a...fuss maybe you know over who would be, who would get the job, you know, the job would come open you know, who would get that job, you know. But, other than that, no outstanding things that I know of, that I could put you on, just off the top of the head.

J: County politics pretty fascinating?

EH: Oh yeah, yeah.

J: I've heard some references and read some references to, you, since you havin' been with the county for a while you might be able to tell me something about this, about a place called the Dingess Tunnel, or a tunnel in Dingess.

EH: Yeah, there's, there's a Ding...tunnel over on the old line, going through Dingess there, going, you go to uh...Lenore and out through down there. There's a tunnel there, is the Dingess Tunnel.

J: And the road runs right through it.

EH: The road goes right through it, yes sir.

J: What, what is the story about that, people have told me about that, it seems to have a reputation and uh...uh...

EH: I never did do much work over in there. I...I can't tell you too much about that.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Practically all my work is uh...from Matewan back up in this area, ya know.

J: Um...Mingo is a big county isn't it?

EH: Oh yeah. I've worked a little over around Gilbert like on maybe a weekend go over there and work after, have to go over there and work with somebody. Worked a little in the lower end of the county, down around Kermit, go down there and work with somebody, but not too much.

J: What kind of relationship did the sheriff's department have with state police, was it a pretty good working relationship or was there some...?

EH: No.

J: Jealously there, controversy or whatever....

EH: There was always controversy. Uh...your sheriffs, the sheriffs at that time they didn't care, they didn't, didn't, didn't want, they didn't care too much about a deputy working with a state police. Of course, I always got along with state police.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Uh...they was always good to me, I was always good to them. Willin' to help them way, you know, in any way. And then what you'd run into, most of what the state police would run into, you'd...you'd find fellers, you know, that would...that would... people they'd, there's uh...deputy you know, and uh...of course their friends, uh...if they'd find out anything that is, that would, to help one of their friends, they'd...they'd...they'd tell that the state police was gonna' do. They'd tell that party; which was wrong, but. The way I always worked with the state police, I always said "Hey...if your gonna do anything in my neck of the woods, don't tell me 'til you get ready to do it. Then, I'd appreciate it if you come along then and say, hey...come go with us, then you know I can't tell it." And, I always got along with them that way. But, you didn't find too many, to many deputies that worked with state police very much. Very little.

J: Would, would they consider it sort of an invasion into their territory or?

EH: Well it, your uh...politicians on account of votes you know, they didn't want uh...tromp on nobody's toes, you know. They say, "we got to run again."

J: Oh, I see. So, if the state police were...if they crack down on a, oh, I don't know, even on a gambling operation something like that?

EH: Yeah, that's right, yeah. If, if, if it got out that the state police was gonna do something you know, why you'd have fellers, officers that would go tell, "Hey Sam you'd better watch they gonna get ya, state police gonna get you, such and such a time" if they found out. But like I say, I always told, "Hey, if your gonna do anything in my neck of the roads, woods, you let me know, I appreciate you letting me know. Just come and get me. I don't want you to tell me a thing."

J: So that way...that

EH: If he gets out, then, you know, I didn't tell it.

J: Right. That protects you and it lets them do their job at the same time.

EH: That's right, that's right. And, I've had them come and get me even when I worked in, as a policeman in Matewan. I've had the state police come get me out of bed at night go with them maybe out in the county somewhere you know, to help them run somebody down or do something with them, you know. Of course, they did the...the arresting and all of that, in other words, what they used me for is a backup man.

J: Uh-huh. Would go between...

EH: Yeah. Yeah, rather than going by themselves, you know.

J: So, even when, when you were a police chief in Matewan your role wasn't just strictly limited to Matewan then you could be called in to....

EH: If another state police.....

J: to help another state police?

EH: If the state police, I don't know as I ever went out of the county, I mean out of the town with a deputy for anything to arrest somebody I don't recall ever, but the state police after they, you know, one of them would tell another, would be transferred in here, who they could trust and who they couldn't trust. Who would talk, you know.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Who would keep his mouth shut on things that would be going on. They was gonna search someplace or do something why, they'd ... one would tell another and they'd, they'd say, "You could trust so and so, he won't tell nothing and what's going on." And I always got along with them, I never did have no trouble with them.

J: Did you ever have any desire to run for elective office yourself?

EH: No, no.

J: Didn't care much about that.

J: Hard to juggle, I guess the, the different sentiments and sympathies of people in the area, especially when you know all the people and how, how to approach the inner offices.

EH: If, if an officer would, like I say, if, if he'd only treat the other fellow, put the other fellow in his position, and him then the...in the, other fellow's position and treat that man like he'd like to be treated, he won't go too far wrong, and people don't resent him, you know?

J: Uh-huh.

EH: And, if he doesn't drink. If they...people...you take a man that drinks, if you drink and I'm an officer and you know I drink, you don't appreciate me for arresting you for drinking.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: So uh...if you keep your nose clean on those things uh...you won't have no, very little trouble.

J: Did you find that you were able to uh...socialize much with people around town, or did ya have to pretty much keep to yourself as a police chief?

EH: Oh no, I'd, well I'd, that I, all the time go in those places, I'd cut up with them carry on with them, have a big, laugh and carry on. I made a lot of friends by being an officer.

J: Yeah.

EH: It's just like in a restaurant and an officer can cause himself a lot of trouble by not approaching that man right. The approach to...to an arrest is half of your arrest.

J: Did you have to vary that approach?

EH: Not, not very much, very little. You didn't, just like if I was gonna, if you were walking from me, and I was goin' to arrest you, I'd always call to you before I took hold of ya. Cause you just reach and grab a man and turn him around and hey, uh...you, you don't know that it was an officer.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: You're liable to strike at him. And naturally if you hit him, he's gonna hit you. So you can save yourself a lot of trouble if you just, in the approach.

J: Did you ever have anybody ambush you? Say you answerin' a call somewhere...

EH: No, never. I always went anywhere I want to go. No, I didn't, that didn't worry me a bit. I...because I never did figure I, mistreated people that bad. Like I say all, I always tried to treat the other fellow like I'd like to be treated. And I think if every officer would do that they'd get along better.

J: So people knew even, even if your were gonna have to arrest somebody they knew pretty much what to expect from you?

EH: Oh yeah.

J: How you were gonna uh...

EH: Yeah.

J: handle...

EH: They knew uh...I've had them say hey "now your not gonna beat me up are you?" I said, "no, I'll be just as good to you as you'll let me and just as mean as you make me. You treat me like I'm a man, I'll treat you like you're one."

J: How about the magistrates and the courts here, did you have a pretty good working relationship with them?

EH: Yeah, I always had a good relationship with them. I never had no trouble.

J: You had, I might, you...now correct me if I'm wrong about this, did you have an uncle that was also police chief at one time?

EH: Yeah.

J: And that was Allen Hatfield.

EH: Allen Hatfield.

J: What can you tell me about him, when was his term of service and uh...what sort of a man was he.

EH: I always uh...he was a fellow to me uh...that uh...he like, he liked for everybody, "Hey, I'm right and you're wrong," you know.

J: That was his attitude?

EH: Yeah. And uh...because he's doing all he can, "I can do this, you can't," you know. He...he...he was...he was, I'd...I'd call him uh...too fast in his, you know, in his way of thinking toward making an arrest. He got to a point, to me now, everybody it might not have seemed that way, but, he got to a point to me that he wanted everybody to think "Hey, I'm mean." I never did get to the point to where I wanted anybody to think that I was mean.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: 'Cause that will get you killed.

J: Yeah, as you say somebody might get out to get you that way.

EH: That's right, that's right.

J: When was he chief, do you know? Approximately, anyway, the years he was chief.

EH: Uh....that must have been in the early '50's. I'm not sure on that now, I'm guessing.

J: So, Mr. Cooper was...would have been the mayor then, also?

EH: Yeah.

J: So, you were, you might have been chief then, right after your Uncle Allen, or right around there close?

EH: Yeah.

J: Okay.

EH: Not too far. Well, Allen would have been back in the '40's.

J: '40's.

EH: Yeah. (Coughs) Excuse me. (Long Pause)

J: Who were some of the other mayors besides Mr. Cooper? Well you mentioned one guy...

EH: Frank Talbert, and Glenn Taylor. Then after Cooper died, why, they appointed Frank Talbert. And then uh...Frank died and they appointed Glenn Taylor.

J: And then there was Hubert Perry.

EH: Hubert Perry. Now, he was uh...before uh...Frank or Glenn either one.

J: Okay. I want to ask you, since you were still in...working for the county during the flood of '77, or were you, oh, you were security guard by that time, that right?

EH: Right, that's right. See, I went to work as security guard in '77, '76.

J: I'd like to get your impressions of the flood anyway. I mean that seems to be something that had a big impact on life around Matewan in 1977.

EH: It was. That was the most disgusting time of my life.

J: Is that right, how so?

EH: Well, everything you had was done under water. That was the second time for me. And uh...it just...you just lost everything you had, and you had to start from scratch.

J: Where were you living at that time?

EH: Right here, at the '77 flood. And uh...I was working what I know as Sprouse Creek or, or uh...for Rawl Sales. But uh... Glen Connor he was uh...the underpass was blocked with water see, and Glen at that time lived at Lynn and uh...so he got me, he said, "You run me up to the old," the old freight station was up there at that time. Said, "You run me up there, and uh...let me out," cause I come around the road up in there you have to go up in the main part of town. "You run me up there and I'll, I'll," he'd have his wife...he'd call his wife and tell her to meet him down there, and then he'd go on home you know. I said, "Well, okay." So, I drove him up there. On my way back down here, at the schoolhouse, the water had just...as I came up the water was just getting in on that bridge about the fair way there at the schoolhouse. And, I'd come up here and let him out and went right straight back and that water was a raising so fast that I like to drowned out there, going back through there. And uh...I got back to down Sprouse Creek they was, in the meantime, they was...they was taking the bridge out there, had that bridge out there from the railroad trestle. So I wanted...living here...my mother lived over there at that time...I said, "Well, I'll put the vehicles out of the way here, and I'll...I'll get back up there to my family and try to help them, in case they need me." And I started walking back up the track and they said, hey, there's no way that I can get across...make it across the bridge up there, it's out.

J: Yeah.

EH: And the way that hollers coming out of there, I can't get across it. So, I'm stuck. So, I just turned and went back. And I never got away from down there until....on Wednesday. (Laughs)

J: Now, when was it the flood started to hit?

EH: It started on the...the Sunday night.

J: Sunday.

EH: It was a Wednesday before I got away from there. Man, come up here everything ya had was under...been underwater, done ruined, you know. And I lost every piece of furniture I had.

J: Where you in this house?

EH: Yeah. Water was up around here. (Shows mark on wall)

J: So, then there for several days were you unaware as to your mother's situation?

EH: Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know nothing, whether my family was alright or not. Only thing that I knew that I was.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: 'Cause you couldn't of had no communication whatever. Your telephones all knocked out, you know, everything.

J: Did many people leave the area after that?

EH: Several of them did, not too many. Everybody borrowed what they could from...and went back. Now this...this house here all this was, inside of this house was all, had to tear it out. And worsh in between the walls, you know. Of course, at that time, it had uh... paneling in it. So, that paneling was all warped and everything else, you know.

J: Were you able to get any uh...any federal help with rebuilding around here?

EH: Some did, most...most uh....most people had to borrow, you know. Yeah, most people, the way they got started back was to borrow from the Federal Government.

J: So, how do people look on the flood wall project around here?

EH: Me personally?

J: Uh-huh.

EH: I don't think they'll ever do anything.

J: Is that right?

EH: That's right.

J: How come?

EH: They're just telling these people what they want them to hear. Just like down in here, now they've got...they say it's in the planning stage. When you gonna get any help?

J: Uh-huh.

EH: And there's, to me there's, they're spending more than enough, if they do what they said they were gonna do. Going through this cut through over here, what they've spent in Williamson, and if they build the flood wall in Matewan uh...they could they could have built the dam. And, it would took care of everybody.

J: Um...

EH: I believe I'm right. Of course, I may be wrong.

J: Was that ever considered as part of the plan or...

EH: Not as I know of. They've tried. They've talked about uh...it wasn't feasible to do it, you know. Now just, just to protect Matewan. Now, this would only protect Matewan, and they'd have to build two bridges. And to me, they could build those two bridges as cheap, if not cheaper than, than what they ...to build a flood wall. And fill Matewan like they are going to fill it. They could save money by going over there in Kentucky and between the two cemeteries...see there's two cemeteries over there...going in between those two cemeteries, and uh...come out up here just...just above Superior Electric on the Kentucky side over there. That would protect Matewan.

J: I'm gonna jump way back in time now, a little while before we wrap up here and uh...you would have been just a little kid when the Matewan, so called "Matewan Massacre" occurred.

EH: That's right.

J: As you grew up, do you remember much of the talk that went on around the Massacre itself?

EH: I've heard my dad talk to different people, you know. They'd get to talking...fellows be sitting around...they'd get to bring it up, you know. And, we...come to our...our home, you know that, if they didn't have any kids with them they...I was with dad...I was gonna find out what was going on, you know. Uh...and I'd... I'd hear talk about it. My dad always told me that uh...old man Reece Chambers before that started (he) went across the, there used to be uh...bridge went across above Matewan there, swinging bridge and said old man Reece would run a piece, he'd walk a piece and run a piece. And he had left Matewan and went over in Kentucky there to get a rifle.

J: Now, this is right before the...?

EH: This is right before the...this is right before it happened.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: And uh...it uh...I'll tell you this cause old man Reece is dead.

J: Yeah.

EH: (Laughing)

J: Yeah he's... Oh, go on.

EH: And uh...said he's got this rifle off of somebody over there in Kentucky, and went back to Matewan. And, him and Jess Boyd stood at the upper end of what I knew as the old freight station that used to be in Matewan up here, stood right out in the open and he said that, whenever they fired there would be somebody fall. Said that's what he was always told you know.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Dad wasn't over in town when it started.

J: And the Massacre seemed to be something that...this is just an impression I get...that the conversations about it were strictly private. Uh...didn't seem to be a whole lot of stuff in the papers, I mean, not of the Massacre itself but later on, down through the years.

EH: Yeah.

J: People didn't seem to talk a whole lot about it.

EH: Didn't, a whole lot about it.

J: Why do you think that is?

EH: Uh...you know, whether people just want to forget it or what I don't...I have no idea. Just every now and then you'd hear somebody say something about it, you know. My dad told me, he said when they, when that started that they's supposed to...Baldwin-Felts come in...they's supposed to had a warrant for Sid Hatfield. And uh...two of them approached Sid see, and uh...Sid was looking at the warrant and Testerman come out, and Sid reached him the warrant, and said uh...Testerman was the mayor...and when Testerman looked at it, he said, "It's a bogus warrant." And when he said that, one of them raised his...raised up on his tip toes and the other one shot Testerman and it started from there. (That) Is what I always heard now. See, Sid was supposed to have did something in McDowell County, and that was what that warrant was supposed to have been for. Wasn't for what he did down here, it for what he did up there.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Him and Ed (was) supposed to have been in on something up there. Which they always said they never was. No, people that knew, said that was wrong. And they tried to keep Sid from going, Sid and Ed from goin' up there to Welch when it happened.

J: Yeah, that seems to be the consensus that, they just wanted to get Sid and Ed over to their own turf.

EH: Oh yeah, yeah. Get them in their backyard, you know.

J: Yeah. Well, let's see, we've covered quite a bit of territory. Is there anything that I haven't...that we haven't covered...I haven't ask you or that you haven't mentioned it...you'd uh... particularly like to get on tape, uh...personal thing or reminiscences, about Matewan itself?

EH: No, nothing as I know of. I'm pretty proud of Matewan myself.

J: Uh-huh.

EH: Always, I always tried to help Matewan in any way that I could, you know. Town officials, working with them any way I could helpin' 'em in any manner.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection