Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Estes Wright Interview

John Hennen: Sound check, mike one. June 22, 1989. Sound check, mike two. June 22, 1989. Narrator's microphone. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center. It's approximately 2:00 in the afternoon, a Thursday. I'm preparing to conduct an oral history interview with Estes Wright, in North Matewan. (Tape cuts off) Mr. Wright, just to get started here, if you could tell me when and where you were born, and something about your parents and the rest of your family.

Estes Wright: I was born at Carry, Virginia. That little country post office way back in the mountains. Carry, Virginia.

J: What county of Virginia is it?

EW: Dickinson.

J: Okay. And when were you born?

EW: 1908, April 19, 1908.

J: April nineteenth. And what were your parents' names?

EW: Cleveland Wright, Lena Wright. She was a Mullins, maiden name Mullins.

J: Okay. And were they natives of Virginia?

EW: They were natives of Dickinson County, Virginia, yes sir.

J: Okay. What kind of work did your father do?

EW: He was a logger most of his life; farmer.

J: Now did he work as a self employed logger or...

EW: No, he worked for W. M. Ritter Lumber Company, a loggin' and white wood lumber company.

J: Now, was this the same Ritter company that...that did business over in this area?

EW: Yeah.

J: Same timber company. Okay.

EW: I guess it was. Now, there was a C. L. Ritter. He done some business up around Iaeger, back up through there. I don't... W. M. was...They was all Ritters.

J: Now, was your father, uh..in the timber business life long? Or was this just one phase of hi..?

EW: No. It was...he'd work in the timber woods of the winter time usually, then he'd farm on summer.

J: Uh huh. So he was a seasonal...seasonal worker?

EW: Seasonal worker you'd call him, yeah.

J: Did he ever do any timber rafting that you were aware of?

EW: No...no. Dad never did do any timber rafting.

J: At that time in, uh...say, when you...Did you stay in Dickinson County for quite awhile? Was the...the timber that your father was cuttin' in Dickinson County, was that virgin timber?

EW: That was virgin timber, yeah.

J: Do you remember anything about some of them big old forest trees over there when you were a kid?

EW: Oh, I saw 'em milled. I worked in W. M. Ritter Lumber Company mill for ten years. Yeah. We cut...We sawed logs on that mill ten foot in diameter. That's a great big log.

J: What kinda...what kinda trees were there?

EW: Poplar, yellow poplar.

J: Was that the most popular building material?

EW: No. Uh...hemlock was their most popular building material. It was a pine family. We cut quite a bit of hemlock, poplar, oak, all kind of oak. We just, uh...One time there, they had thirty-some million feet of lumber on the yard.

J: In one lumber yard?

EW: One lumber yard.

J: The one that you were working in?

EW: Well, it was one...it was one...for one mill. It was two yards. One mill.

J: And was that called just "Ritter Lumber?"

EW: Ritter Lumber Company, yeah.

J: Okay. Did you all have a...a full working farm, self sufficient farm, when you were growing up? Raise a lot of crops for sale or just your own use, for instance?

EW: Oh, no. We...Just for farmin', yeah. We...just for our own use. We didn't raise anything for sale. Maybe we'd have a few pigs or cattle once in awhile; a sheep once in awhile for sale, but not too many...We didn't raise them for sale, we just...for the market...we just raised them for our own use.

J: Uh huh. And when you were a boy, did you help out in, say, the hog slaughtering, and that type of thing?

EW: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

J: Did the girls participate in that at all?

EW: Well, they helped mother in the renderin' the lard and things of that nature.

J: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

EW: They's nine of us alivin'. They's one dead. I had six... they's six of us boys, and three girls, livin.'

J: Still livin'?

EW: No. They's two of them.

J: Or livin' when...

EW: They's two of them gone on.

J: Where did you come along on the age distribution?

EW: I was next to the oldest.

J: Okay. And when did you go to work in the...in the saw mill, approximately?

EW: It was around '20, '23, somewhere's along there. I was just a little boy, and I'd go into work and they'd run me off 'cause I was too young. (laughing)

J: They didn't want you workin' there?

EW: No, it was state age law you know. They...You had to be sixteen.

J: Uh huh.

EW: Well, hit didn't cost too much to fib a little and get a job. They'd look at you awful hard.

J: So, how would you do that? Just go up to the foreman and say..?

EW: Just go up to the foreman, and if he needed you to go to work, he'd say, "Get that shovel there and go to work," or, "Get that ax there and go to work," or what...whatever tool's handy.

J: So then, you were old enough then, huh?

EW: Yeah. No, that was when I first started.

J: Yeah.

EW: And on up 'til after I was old enough, then I went to the mill; when I got old enough.

J: Okay.

EW: Worked in the mill, and on the 'yard' some. Started out on the 'yard.'

J: Were there timber camps in the region that you lived in?

EW: Oh, yeah.

J: Where people come from out of...out of state? To work?

EW: Yeah...yeah. They had, uh...two or three big boarding camps; they was on...they was on railroad cars. They had their own railroad tracks; narrow gauge forty, I don't remember how wide it was, about forty-eight inches. They was little bit narrower than standard main line road, I know that, but they'd lay a third rail where it was necessary and you...was CC & O car.

J: So they'd...they would move these camps around..?

EW: They'd move these camps around, yeah. They'd move them. They had forty, forty-some miles of track there, and they'd move them camps, loggin' camps, from this set up to that one, and they'd get what was in easy reach here; and the men could walk in the mornin'. Workin' place why, then they got too far to walk, they'd move the camp up a piece.

J: Um-hum.

EW: They's on...they's on rail and it didn't...

J: Did most of the men come from around that area or did you have some European labor..

EW: Yeah. MOst of them...well, biggest majority of them come around there and then the rest of them...biggest part of the rest of them came out of NOrth Carolina and South Carolina.

J: Um-hum.

EW: Few out of Tennessee. I don't remember ever havin' anybody out of Kentucky.

J: Was this pretty much all white men or were there black men workin' also.

EW: All...all white men on the hides and the loggin' wood. Now, they had a few black in the uh... lumber hustler's they called them and the bunch got together and run them off.

J: Oh, they did?

EW: Yeah they was...they was...company was givin' them all, we call it the pud.

J: The what?

EW: We called it the pud. They was gettin' all the easy jobs and...

J: Pud. LIke P.U.D. Would that be how you'd say...

EW: P.U.D. I reckon.

J: I never heard that.

EW: THey'd give them the uh...easy jobs and we'd take the rough job so I don't know, they's a bunch of them go together one mornin' and they just struck on the company and told them they had to leave them...run them blacks off or just shuttle them blacks or give them the easy jobs or somethin' and other. I don't remember now. That's been that many years or...I'd say sixty-five year ago.

J: Un-hun.

EW: You can't remember just exactly what all went on.

J: NOw what was the difference say, between the easy jobs and the tough jobs? What were some of those jobs?

EW: Well, they's sticker boy in shippin' lumber. THe sticker boy he takes a stick...a stackin' strips so they was called uh...when they was handed to him, he'd take them and stack them up. They was two inch strip, eight inch, twelve feet long I think it was. Two inch strip with a twelve feet long and they'd take them and stack them up. You didn't have nothin' to do there. You...you had it made. THat's...somebody else had to pick up the lumber and hustle it off of there...stacks.

J: Now did you...did you hustle that lumber by hand or did you have cranes to help you out with?

EW: By hand. It was hustled...everything was done by hand. All but...only the loggin' woods, they had loaders and...steam loaders. Everything run by steam. Dinkies to pull it in.

J: Dinkies is like a little tiny train?

EW: Yeah a little small engine. Steam engine.

J: Now, were you and your dad workin' in the same place at this time?

EW: We was workin' the same company but that was in the loggin' woods at that time but when I quit the loggin' woods, I went to uh...saw mill.

J: Um-hum.

EW: WEnt to the lumber yard and got a job on the lumber yard and uh...mill for me and got a man hurt and he come and wanted me to take his place if I would and i was anxious to get in out of the weather.

J: So you say when your workin' in a loggin' wood, your actually cuttin'.

EW: Cuttin' timber.

J: The...the timber.

EW: Haulin'...makin' roads to it. Haulin' them out. Called a team driver, grab driver or the timber cutter or what have you.

J: And then you moved to the mill...

EW: I moved to...to the mill cause I'd be a driver. I was a driver 'til ten years. I was assistant mill foreman when I quit. I quit on my own.

J: And this is still for Ritter?

EW: THat was still for Ritter yeah.

J: NOw, when you worked in the mill, when you moved in to work in the mill, were you still living with your family or had you moved off by yourself then?

EW: Yeah...yeah.

J: Ok.

EW: Of course I had to board, I had to board at the short cut marriage shortly after that.

J: Um-hum. When did you get married?

EW: 1929.

J: Ok.

EW: May the twenty, May the twentieth...twentieth, 1929.

J: And your wife's name?

EW: Delma Stallard Wright.

J: ANd this is your...your current wife?

EW: My current wife.

J: Ok. Tell me a little bit about...a couple more questions about these uh...timber camps. When you have a bunch of men livin together like that, what kind of law enforcement was carried on? For instance, a couple guys get in a fight?

EW: Well, company...company had their own policeman they called him. They didn't have no calibust or nowhere to lock them up see, he just...sometimes you'd have to whop one in the head and knock him out to get the fight stopped. But...that seldom ever happened and they'd make up. They was big cronies the next day or maybe the same day. They had a if you...... continued to make trouble, you moved. They didn't have no more use for you.

J: YOu move, in other words, they just say goodbye, you're leavin'?

EW: Yeah. You're gone.

J: Now, how did, how did men get hold of the or if they did...get hold of liquor at this time in these camps?

EW: Oh, it was plentiful it was plentiful they was bootleggers, we called 'em and makin' that moonshine they'd carry it 'ere they'd have a certain place they would set up and sometimes they was a little if it was they'd fix 'em a little shack for bush harbor so and so they called it a blind tiger you'd could there to the Blind Tiger and get all you wanted.

J: How did they come up with that name?

EW: I don't know that was before my time when it was called the Blind Tiger that was back in the days of big stone jet Virginia when they was first buildin' it and that was a while before I was ever thought of I guess.

J: So, did the company detectives or the company police did they just sort of look the other way when people would bootleg or?

EW: Na, they didn't pay no attention to that stuff they'd go out here and get them uh...can full to they didn't pay no attention to it, but now you start a little fuss you got quietin' down.

J: So, they didn't mind as long as you didn't get into any trouble?

EW: No, no, if you didn't get if it didn't bother your work.

J: Yeah.

EW: Now if it bothered your work why.

J: What sort of shifts did you work in the mill?

EW: Well, they called it 10 hour shift, you worked 10 hours pay was good 25 cent an hour and some of 'em get a little more I got a little bit more, because I had a pretty good job yel, I got a little bit more, when I quit I was just a Mill Foreman when I quit I was gettin' 65 cents an hour that was in 1942.

J: Hmm! hmm! so you...

EW: The war just had started I should have stayed with it I guess.

J: So, you stayed in the timber business then for about 20 close to 20 years then I guess?

EW: Off and on let's see 1917 was the first job I had I was born in 1908, but I was just 9 years old.

J: Start out at 9 years old.

EW: Laughing.

J: Did you go to school at this time at all?

EW: You go a little bit fall of the year we had 5 mile 9 tenths what a car registered, boy we went to school to where we lived 5 miles and 9 tenths you hoosted walked it there morning and night carried you a lunch.

J: So, you walkin' 12 miles a day basically?

EW: Yeah, I was walkin' yelp.

J: How many kids were in the school? Do you recall?

EW: Well, they'd be anywhere 10 to 15 to 20 maybe sometime 25 I think they was the best I can recall they's about 20 in the school I went to. We just go awhile in the fall of the year and then a lot of times you got one pair of shoes a year and I remember that very well, but you go to school bare footed this morning it would come a snow that's gonna bring shoes to ya.

J: Somebody bring your shoes to the school for ya?

EW: Yel, they had a mother or someone bring 'em to the school house, sometimes she bring a sled we could all ride home on you know and he'd load the sled up well, us kids have to load it up why he put others on it and get it loaded up rock both.

J: Pull it with a horse?

EW: Yel, pull it with a horse or two of 'em.

J: When you were workin' there in the early years in the loggin' woods and in the sawmill was there any union activity goin' on among the lumber men at that time?

EW: Never was heard of never heard of I don't remember well, they tried to get union a goin' I was down in Harland County Kentucky at that time workin' in the mill and they tried to get union a goin' down there then oh...they run so much duns goin' on well, I didn't get in on none of it I kept out of it.

J: When would that have been?

EW: That was in 1930 or 31 when you take a you'd work a hour or two a day for a $1.25 a day you'd get a dollar and a quarter a day for a days work that what you got.

J: In 1931 or so?

EW: Thirty and thirty-one if you could get it get to work a tall, but it be for a month time you didn't get a tab of nothing.

J: Is that why you went to Harland just lookin' for the work?

EW: Well, I'd give my job there up at McLure Virginia where I was workin' I'd give it uh...one arm man I didn't know all that depression was coming on I give it to a old one arm man because he had a big family I was single, but I got married right along about that time twenty-nine and they kept him he got one of them easy jobs of course I had one of the roughest ones I was pick up on lumber stack well, I give him my job then I seen what I had done after it was too late I took off and went to Harland County and I made two trips down there before I got a job and I got a job 'ere in the little mill right out of Charleston, West Virginia it was a small mill we worked it then I went couldn't get nothing else to do there so I went to the mines up at its called Black Star it was Black Star Coal Company and they called the camp Black Star.

J: Is that also in Kentucky?

EW: Yeah, I worked there in the mines for a long time about a year they called me back to Ritters then I went back to Ritters.

J: Ok. When you went over to Kentucky did your wife go with you?

EW: I went and got her.

J: After you'd been there a while?

EW: After I'd been there a while and found a place to live.

J: Did you live in company housing when you workin' say for Black Star?

EW: No, this was this was a private house an old man owned about 15 or 20 houses that had in time passed and had been a coal camp, but the coal camp had went thump and he uh...all the houses fell back to the first owner there so they belonged to him.

J: How much work were you able to get when you were working for the coal company?

EW: Well, I would work practically every day, but I didn't get anything, I was loadin' coal with my hand with a shovel and I was loadin' here he was loadin' here he loaded a car, I loaded a car well he go to script ritter he'd get all the script he wanted I was only gettin' a dollar.

J: So, you were gettin' cash and this other fellow was gettin'...

EW: No.

J: Script.

EW: No.

J: Oh, I see.

EW: And then when payday come around he'd draw I've seen him walk up to the winder and get 45 or 50 dollars cash I'd be 10 or 15 dollars in the red I don't know where mine went I didn't draw that much script I'd get a dollar everyday or every other day.

J: Did they ever explain that to you?

EW: No, they was no explaining to do, they'd take it off of you and give it to him.

J: So, what do you suspect was going on there he had some kind of a deal set up with them?

EW: I...I never did know, you never found out nothing.

J: But, you were the new man at that time right?

EW: Yel.

J: Hum!

EW: Yel, it was rough, now you worked I drove in the mines I drove in the mines at 7 of a morning and I'd get out at 9 and 10 at night maybe for a dollar or maybe at the most two dollars me loadin' as much coal as he was I think I always thought that they give it to the ones they wanted to have it always...

J: Always that way.

EW: Yelp, I always thought it and they was always still accused of it (laughing) I run into them old men at the counter workin' in them days buddy they think it they say that's the way it went.

J: So, they played favorites?

EW: Yel, they had favorites and they you was makin' them a livin' and doing without yourself.

J: Did you have to buy your own tools?

EW: You bought your own tools.

J: So, you bought your own tools, paid your own rent.

EW: Paid your own rent, yelp.

J: Did you buy it at company stores?

EW: Yelp...

J: I guess you had to.

EW: You bought your groceries, you bought your groceries at the company store if you stayed there it cost ya thirty some dollars for the tools to start out with you bought thirty some dollars worth of tools to start out with if you didn't have the money to pay for 'em they'd hold it out your first they have the first thirty some dollars.

J: So, when you got the call back from Ritter then you came you went back to Virginia?

EW: I...I went back took off hitch hikin' I'll never forget that I'd walked all day from four o'clock say this morning it was in June about the eighteenth or twentieth of June I walked all day right up just a turnin' dust dark I ran into a truck driver he agreed to haul me if I'd ride in the back, but I couldn't get up in front with him I'd have to ride in the back.

J: Now where was your wife at this time was she back in Virginia?

EW: I left her at uh...I left her at uh...Harland town.

J: In Kentucky?

EW: Yel, so I agreed to ride in the back and he hauled from there to Norton you might know where Norton, Virginia is?

J: Yeah, there on route 58 I think it is.

EW: Yeah, he hauled me into Norton I got out and I was gonna set around 'ere and doze a little that night and police run me off.

J: The Norton Police.

EW: Yel, the city police run me off I took off a walkin' and I walked from there to Coeburn, Virginia now just as Coeburn, Virginia was gettin' good daylight a little ole restaurant just had opened up and I had I think 15, 20 maybe 25 cents I had I know it was way less than a dollar I went down 'ere and got me a cup of coffee and a hamburger I don't be stingy with it put everything on it that you can (laughing)

J: Did they load you up?

EW: He loaded me up and I told him where I was goin' and he said if you'll hang around here just a few minutes and keep your mouth shut I believe I can get you a ride says a feller goes there and picks up ice we had our own ice place at McLure so he said a feller goes there and picks up ice and he said he'll be along here in a few minutes he said if you let me do the talkin' I believe I can get you a ride he said you'll have to ride in the back I said well I'm used to it.

J: Your used to the back "laughing".

EW: And he got me a ride and he put me off about oh...less than a quarter of a mile to my mother-in-laws I got over there and uh...it was about nine o'clock I guess when we got there granny she fixed me up a good breakfast gravy and biscuits a little bacon (laughing) I eat and set around 'ere and my feet kept hurtin' and pulled my shoes off they was blisters on my feet bigger than your thumb the men folks come in for dinner says they want you out on lumber yard.

J: That day.

EW: I said I can't go today but I'll be there in the mornin' I showed 'em my feet, so next day we went I went out and went to work the next day on the lumber yard I think I worked a week feller got hurt in the mill they ask me to go in the mill and take his place and that tickled me cause I was in the shed you know out of the weather everything ran closer we had a big double band half a mile away we had a big fourteen unit floorin' mill where they made they made everything all kinds of finishing material they made it 'ere that was a woppin' big place.

J: Where did they get contracts from all over the place?

EW: All over the place they shipped lumber from well to New York, Chicago and I don't know where and all they did ship it to. The railroad ties see all the railroad ties they cut I've seem 'em load out a hundred cars a railroad ties here in one day if fact one fourth of July I help load a hundred cars a railroad tie.

J: And this is in uh...still in the depression years?

EW: Yeah, yeah, for three dollars I think it was I got three dollars for that days work.

J: For the whole day.

EW: For the whole day 12 hours.

J: So, you stayed in there then with Ritter for another 10 years or so?

EW: I left Ritter in "42". Yelp, I went to the mines cause I knew they'd be sellin' out there in another 8 or 10 years and they did.

J: Sellin' out you mean...

EW: Didn't keep a job, yel.

J: Hum! hum!

EW: They tried to get me to come back and I wouldn't and they tried to get me to go to Hillsborough, North Carolina I believe it was I wouldn't go down there they wanted some place in Georgia I wouldn't go down there I told 'em no I was gonna stay with the mines then they tried over here in Mullins and I wouldn't go over there.

J: But, you...you came to Red Jacket at that time?

EW: I had to much at stake here I had pension, I had too much seniority and had a pension in the mine and I stayed here 'til I got it.

J: Oh, so when you say they tried to get you go to Mullin you mean other companies?

EW: No, it was Ritters.

J: Still Ritters.

EW: Well, it wudn't Ritters it was Georgia Pacific they'd emerged and it took on the name of Georgia Pacific.

J: So, Georgia Pacific bought out Ritters?

EW: Yel, oh, yel.

J: Okay. Why did you come to Red Jacket? What was the attraction there?

EW: Well, I was gettin' a better job in the head of Keen Mountain I was gettin' a better job.

J: How did you find out about the job?

EW: Well, through one of the foreman, spoke to the one of the foreman he happen to be my brother-in-law and he told me they was a better job here and so I out and come here March the eighth, 1943.

J: Those years I guess were pretty good times for minin' weren't they?

EW: Yeah.

J: During the war years?

EW: You better not come through without you wantin' to work, (laughing) they hired every fellow that come along they'd hire him see the war was gettin' all the young men and they had to just pick up what was left I don't know how I got out of it I was deferred I don't know not my request I know that.

EW: Now you goin' again.

J: Yeah, so some how you were deferred from the service one way or another?

EW: Yel, some of the officials of the company had me deferred, I got hurt that was in "44" I got hurt, I got out of the hospital just a few days and I got another call to come in for an examination.

J: Did you get hurt on the job?

EW: Yel, I went in and they put me 4F they throwed plum out no way for me to get in.

J: And you were well you were thirty/thirty-five years old at that time?

EW: Yel, I was thirty-five years old.

J: Did you have any children by that time?

EW: I had three we just three of our own we adopted one made us four.

J: So what was your job in the mines then when you first came over here?

EW: Well, I worked on the track when I first went in the mines and then help around 'til I got in the shop I done shop work then after it. I was doin' shop work when that place worked out and then I went to another one and went on a boat worked on the boat there for awhile and they I was on the outside they was a little hanky panky they was tryin' to get me to uh...do things that I didn't think was right.

J: Who was?

EW: Well, the boss that wanted to get him a bottle every week, I told him if I was holdin' the job I didn't have none so I told him I was stayin' where I was at and he said no your not said your goin' inside "32 inch" coal me as crippled up like I was I couldn't do it I told him I couldn't I said well I'll just have to quit so I'll just quit. I said if you give me a cut off slip I'll just volunteer and quit no I can't give you a cut off slip I said yes will or I'll put...I'll put the union on your back.

J: I was gonna say you had something on him didn't ya?

EW: Yel, so he give me a cut off slip and I come in and made her happy because I'd quit so she didn't want me to work no how and uh...but I wanted to work another year to make me 50 years on public jobs and I went down the next week and signed up on social security.

J: Now this is in about "1970" your talkin' about?

EW: Yel, "1970" yel, so when I got my job or got my social security then they come back and wanted me to come back to the job, take my old job back, they offered to pay me for that month and a half I'd been off no, I'll just stay where I'm at.

J: You'd had enough of 'em by that time.

EW: Yel, I'll just stay where I'm at I said you had your choice.

J: Now you were, before we got started with the interview or the taped interview you were tellin' me about the work you did with the uh...with the water works at Red Jacket, tell me something about that because I wasn't aware they had a separate water works?

EW: Yel, we had our own water plant here we before, before they built this water plant the water they had was uh...so high in iron and sulfur that you couldn't I couldn't drink it nobody couldn't drink it you could get a bucket full another hour or two it was just a big skim over the teller you could just skin it off, so we put in this uh...plant with a big irrigator on the roof to break the water down and then we run through chemicals, sand filter we had the best water in the State of West Virginia.

J: Now did that supply just the mines or did it also supply houses?

EW: That supplied all the Red Jacket Camp I don't know how many houses two or three hundred houses at Red Jacket camp supplied all of 'em of course they's not that many now because it so many of 'em tore down and we had uh...an awful good plant.

J: So the company supplied this water and then did they just deduct that from your pay?

EW: You paid for it out of your payroll you paid for that just like you did your rent then they sold uh...went to sellin' the houses I don't know I don't remember the year that they went to sellin' them houses in I think it was in "46" I know I was one of the first ones to buy I got a six room house cost me $500 hundred dollars.

J: You bought that from Red Jacket Coal?

EW: I bought it from Red Jacket Coal, yel.

J: And you had been livin' in that house...

EW: I'd been livin' in it for some time then.

J: And you paid how much for the house?

EW: Five hundred dollars.

J: Five hundred dollars.

EW: Yel.

J: And had indoor plumbing?

EW: No, no indoor plumbing they had a john out the back and at the time at that time I had to carry water for uh...ole I guess a hundred yards or maybe a hundred and fifty yards from a hand pump, of course the boys did that I didn't have that to do. Then they put in an outside spigot they had a outside spigot and then I decided after I bought it then I would put in uh...sink and uh...big double drain sink and I put in my own bathroom and done my own I done all my plumbing.

J: So, you did that yourself.

EW: I did that myself yel, that was after I bought the house and part of the stuff well, it was all brand new, but part of it was give to me didn't cost me a penny a feller give it to me.

J: Now in this Red Jacket Coal Camp or what had been the Red Jacket Coal Camp say two hundred or so houses...

EW: Yel.

J: Was it like its own little community or did people go shopping other places for instance?

EW: Well, the company required that you trade at company stores, but half of the warriors they kind of got a little leant about it they wudn't so strict you could go out and go shopping.

J: So, but like before the war as part of your job it was part of the deal you had to trade at a company store?

EW: You traded at company stores if you worked that was that was before the union now you traded at the company store where you worked, but after the union end it wudn't hardly so bad and then after the warriors why it still not so bad.

J: When did the union finally get going good and strong say in Red Jacket area?

EW: In the Red Jacket area it was Fondales organized I think it was about '32 I wudn't here at that time, but I think it was about '32.

J: So, they were the union had a good hold by the time you got here then?

EW: Oh, yel, yel. I always thought they had to good of a hold.

J: Is that right.

EW: Yel.

J: Too much power huh...

EW: Yel, they a little to much power for their good sweetheart deals what we call 'em.

J: Now what are those now?

EW: Huh.

J: What are sweetheart deals?

EW: Well, that was you'd get with the boss make a deal with him now we'll do this or we'll do that or we won't do this or we won't do that or what have ya. That's a sweetheart deal back then.

J: In other words somebody a union representative somebody in the union would work this out?

EW: Yel, union that was your just not International now it was your local union which I thought was wrong I got fired over it a time or two expressin' my opinion about it.

J: Where would you express your opinion at union meetings?

EW: Union meeting, yel.

J: Where did you all have your meetings?

EW: Oh, we owned our hall light up here up here on the across the tracks right up before you get to the Post Office here in North Matewan.

J: So, what would happen when you call somebody are these sweetheart deals you do this at the union meeting and they threatened to lay you off or something?

EW: They would find you a big fine if you'd pay it you was, but I didn't pay none of 'em told me give me a receipt and I'd pay it and they wouldn't give me a receipt.

J: So, they were basically illegal fines?

EW: Illegal, yel, yel I wudn't payin' them sweetheart fines.

J: What happen when the Rank and File of the union would find out about these sweetheart deals, did that ever happen?

EW: If they ever found it out I never did know it.

J: So, it never really became common knowledge?

EW: Of course, they knew about it had to know about it, cause they was gettin' by too many things.

J: Where did your kids go to school? Did Red Jacket have its own school?

EW: The first year I was here they went to Red Jacket school and then after that they went to Matewan.

J: Would that be Matewan Elementary School?

EW: Yel, well they went on through high school there in Matewan yel. None of 'em went to college cause I couldn't afford it they wouldn't let me go in debt.

J: Did your kids stay around here or did they move out of the neighbor...move out of their region?

EW: No, I have one boy lives down Clay City Kentucky there down just beside of Lexington he lives there and then I've got one that lives at Myrtle, South Carolina and he took service for his care and he 27 years in service so he just decided to stay on in Myrtle Beach in the Carolina's and he's workin' for uh...hardware store down there at Myrtle Beach, yel, True Value Hardware.

J: Now when uh...

EW: My daughter she lives...

J: Oh, I'm sorry.

EW: Right up the road here a little ways and fourth one we adopted he's in service he's in Air Force down somewhere in Carolina.

J: Is he also career service?

EW: Well, if he stays this term he'll have 18 years and so I just assume that he's makin' his career.

J: Yeah. When Island Creek uh...bought out Red Jacket did you say that was about "1956"?

EW: "1956" yeah.

J: So, you stayed with Island Creek?

EW: Yel, I stayed right on they took every man and they took all the responsibility of seniority and everything that a way so, I just stayed with 'em.

J: Was there much change in the way business was done or the way?

EW: A lot of changes, yel. They was a lot of changes.

J: What kind of things...

EW: Sweetheart deals were done away with, you worked I knowed the men that was going in I was in the shop at the time oh...fellows go in there if they didn't want to work they'd break down their buggy or whatever they was runnin' they'd tear it up on purpose and so they take the rest of the day to get it fixed they wouldn't have to work that day they'd set around they'd get their shift for it waitin' on their or whatever it was and Island Creek stopped that that was one of things I was about to get fired or run off out blackballed out the union up here cause a fit again it in the Hall and I was about to get runned out of the union for it.

J: So, you wanted, you felt like it was your duty to call people whenever doing this kind of stuff in the long run it gives the union a bad name anyway.

EW: Oh, yel. Oh, yel. They said well we can get by with it and I said I know you can get by with, but that ain't the thing about it it's not right them men tearin' up piece of equipment that costin' the company money which they could be makin' a little bit of profit well, they claim their not and I said your not a gettin' about 16 or 17 tons a man of coal per shift, but after Island Creek took it over why they get about 20 or 25 ton per man, but they a fellow tore up a buggy two or three times in order to get to set around the rest of the day get mad at it at his boss and they uh...told him he said got one more time you got one more time to tear it up you're too old a man to change jobs just tear it up one more time that's it your pay stops right there he didn't tear it up no more "laughing".

J: So he was a little more careful huh.

EW: He was a little more careful yeah. They thought that the company done him dirty, but I thought they done him right.

J: When did the big uh...push for machination in the mines happen? Did that come in with Island Creek was that before then?

EW: The modern equipment you mean?

J: Yeah.

EW: That was Island Creek brought that here with 'em.

J: So, mid late 50's then?

EW: They didn't have any modern equipment at all they had joys, joy loaders and uh...buggies, but they didn't have any continuous miners or anything like that.

J: What are joy loaders?

EW: That's just uh...well I couldn't hardly explain to you what it is just a big ole thing that goes in to that hook where the coal is shot down just digs it up on a conveyer.

J: Ok. So it loads up, but they didn't have when you say continuous mines you didn't have the cuttin' machines, continuous cutters then?

EW: Yel, they had these continuous cutters, but a continuous miner he don't use a cutter he just goes up in the face of the coal and goes to knockin' it down.

J: Oh, right okay.

EW: Loadin' it up.

J: So they started bringin' those in later on after Island Creek came in?

EW: Yeah, they just done away with the cutters I reckon got bigger buggies one man haul I don't know six or eight, ten ton a coal with one buggies full.

J: How about you uh...you were just leaving the mines about the time the black lung struggle was over with.

EW: Yel, they just got it settled yel, in 1970.

J: Was that a pretty emotional issue around here?

EW: Yes it was.

J: What went on around that issue?

EW: Well, people fought for it and uh...most nationally company fought again it I went to one doctor and he told me that I didn't have no black lung says you got newcoma osiasis they said you ain't got no black lung ever doctor that I've went to after him said I did have my lungs only shows one and a half the rest of it is black I've got just about enough wind I'm just about give out now. I've got just about enough wind to tell a big long story.

J: I notice you have an oxygen tank in the corner over here?

EW: Yeah.

J: That is yours?

EW: Yeah, that is mine. Yel, I buy it myself, they don't furnish it...

J: Now...

EW: They said I didn't need it bad enough.

J: Oh, so your pension or anything doesn't cover it this you have to buy it yourself?

EW: I have to buy it myself, yel.

J: But, you do get some black lung benefits?

EW: Yel, I get black lung benefits I get black lung benefits and miners benefits.

J: How long did that battle go on between black lung abucants and the company?

EW: Well, I don't know how much longer it'll go on its still goin' on they wrote me and they hound and hound and hound me for to give them permission to go and pick up my medical records, that was black lung commission now that done this, wanted to pick up my medical records so they could take a study of 'em well, I ain't that big of a fool they make anything they want to out of them records they could take your X-rays, X-rays and everything they can take them X-rays and remodel them that man ain't got no black lung they could fix 'em the way they want 'em mine just shows a lung and a half I went day for yesterday and had some X-rays made the doctor told me there's no change what so ever in 'em said they never be any said any change would be for the worst. Well, that fights still a goin' on I got a letter last part of last year was the last letter I got from 'em wantin' my medical records.

J: This is still from the...

EW: Black lung and I told 'em well I told this attorney that wrote 'em a letter they said they want 'em for their own records, they've got all of my records all I know if they get anymore they'll have to get a court order.

J: By the time you retired this will be my last question by the time you retired in 1970 was it good times or hard times for the mines around here?

EW: Well, seem like they was on a slump right along about that time Harold they was another two around I don't know where and all they had some mines down below Matewan here they shut down then they wudn't near as much coal minin' they few we called 'em jog holes little fellow just wudn't little wagon mine he run truck loads and then quit. Unorganized they didn't have any union, didn't pay any black lung or nothing company has to pay this black lung you know so much a ton for coal I don't know what it is.

J: So, did Island Creek sort of break up into a lot of little companies eventually?

EW: Not, so bad as some of the others did they did to extent, but no so bad as the others.

J: Back in the '40's did Red Jacket have a baseball team?

EW: Yel.

J: In the camps?

EW: Yel.

J: What were they called, do you remember?

EW: No, I don't remember.

J: Was that a pretty big deal?

EW: That was a big deal yel, yel you got the soft jobs to be a ball players got the soft jobs.

J: Is that right?

EW: Yel. One I got to tell you this one he was with me and he didn't do anything he just fiddled around and do what he wanted to and let the rest go somebody else would do the rest of his work for him and he was a ball pitcher on the ball team and he we was my buddy we was painters we was paintin' he was just kind of piddlin' around and helpin' us and mixin' for us and so on my buddy said "we gonna start a job you and me gonna start a job down here down the road here somewheres we would like for you to help us" he said "I can't I got to go home and do up the dishes before I can go out and practice ball" no you're just a lyin' no he said "I swear that's the truth we decided we just go home with him and see bless       he did we got big sink full of dishes that mother was settin' there polishin' her fingernails he went in and he washed his hands and got him on an apron and went to warshin' dishes tried to get them done in time to go practice ball.

J: To go play ball right. "laughing".

EW: "Laughing".

J: Did they bring college kids in the summer time to work and play ball for 'em?

EW: Yel, yel, yel they'd bring in college kids and school teachers they bought in a lot of and worked a lot of school teachers through the summer.

J: When you were paintin' were you sprayin' machinery is that what you did as a painter?

EW: No, I was paintin' houses.

J: Oh, okay.

EW: We was paintin' Red Jacket houses.

J: Red Jacket houses?

EW: Yel. They put you where ever they wanted you, you know. You...of course, I loved to paint and so that suited me just fine.

J: Beats goin' down in the mines huh?

EW: Oh, yel it was easier work.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection