Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Mack Morrell Interview

John Hennen: June 23, 1989, Friday morning sound check on microphone one and narrator's microphone. Friday, June 23, 1989, this is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center. I'm preparing to conduct an interview with Mr. Mack Morrell, brother of Venchie Morrell, I'm interviewing Mr. Morrell in the home of Jim and Gerry Chambers on Ohio River Road in Huntington, West Virginia. First your full name, where you were born, when you were born and tell me a little bit about your family please?

Mack Morrell: Well, my full name is Mack M. Morrell and I was born in Matewan in September the 22, 1919; one year before the Massacre. And mom, of course, mom was born in Austria. Dad was born in Sicily. And I think all the rest of kids were born at Red Jacket, except me and my sister Ellen, and we were the only two born in Matewan.

J: How many brothers and sisters were there?

MM: Oh, they was...let's see, Venchie, Frankie and Joe and me and Bernard they was five boys and three girls. And then, they was three that died when they were just born, two boys and a girl. And 'course dad was a plumber. He...he worked for the coal company up until that uh...Matewan Massacre. He was with the Red Jacket Coal Corporation. And, and uh...he didn't, after they had all that shooting there and everything, he left the coal industry. He was a town plumber for years and years.

J: Was he uh...involved in the union at all at the time of the...

MM: He was in the union. If fact, what Jim was tellin' about that building there in the back, I heard him tell that once when he was takin' the kids, us kids, up the steps to get us out the way of all the shootin' and everything going on, that uh...he heard a gun shot and he looked back and they was a man behind him with a gun was going to shoot him in the back. And somebody shot the man that was going to shoot him before he shot him.

J: This was on the day of the so called Matewan Massacre?

MM: I was just a year old then. But, I've heard him tell it many, many of times that he don't know who shot the other man, but the man was gettin' ready to shoot him in the back himself.

J: Was this one of the detectives?

MM: I don't know. He didn't know. He just said that the man fell and he didn't--I'm sure he knew--but he didn't tell us. He just said this man shot...was shot...in the back, that uh...was going to shoot him. And that's when he left the (union) he got out of it and went into plumbing business.

J: What was your mothers maiden name?

MM: Sophia, S,O,P,H,I,A, Cheshire C,H,E,S,H,I,R,E.

J: And when had she come over from Austria?

MM: They both came, mom and dad both came over in about 1903, somewhere along there. I think it was 1903.

J: Did your folks ever discuss with you uh...what prompted them to come to the United States. Did they come with their families?

MM: They came by themselves. Well, my dad had three brothers that came with him. And they...when they got into New York they separated and he never did see or hear from any of 'em after that. And, I always thought that one of 'em might have been this Morrell's meat packing. It could've...he could've been related to him. But, he told me when he was real sick one time at Red Jacket, West Virginia--I lived up there and he came up and... he wouldn't go to anybody's house but mine...and he was there--and I ask him about his brothers and he said, "Well, they all got off the boat in New York," and he said they separated and he never heard from 'em no more.

J: Never saw 'em or heard from 'em again.

MM: Never saw 'em anymore.

J: I'll be darn. How did he end up in uh...Red Jacket?

MM: Well, he came to Beckley, West Virginia to start with when he, when he got off the boat in New York and they left there he wound up in Beckley. And from Beckley he went down to...into the coal mines at Bazavane, Virginia, which is down from Bluefield, West Virginia just a little bit and Pocahontas, Virginia. And then he left there and came down to go to work at the coal mines at Red Jacket and that's where he ended up right there in Matewan.

J: And he stayed in the mines until roughly 1920, '21?

MM: Yeah. He was in uh...I think he might have quit right after the Massacre. I know he got out of it then and went into the plumbing.

J: Did he work for himself as a plumber?

MM: For himself, yeah.

J: Had he had any apprenticeship in that trade before he started working?

MM: Never had other than just pickin' it up hisself and he was a town plumber all those years and he told me one time that it's a funny thing I don't guess it has any bearing on this, but when he was sick, real sick he used to tell me I said something about dad you you know we had a rough time growing up we had a time makin' ends meet and I said something about uh...he told me that alot of the people there in Matewan that had plenty money still owed him alot of money, but never would pay him and I said well did you ever go to 'em he said yel, but they'd tell me they don't have it, so they can't pay he said if I get all the money they owe me I'll have a pretty good lot of money.

J: Were there many Italian families in and around Matewan at the time?

MM: Well, they wudn't to many in and aroun...well around Matewan at Red Jacket, that place up there they call Little Italy was all Italians and Hungarians that's where the colored people live now they call it Little Italy, because they was so many foreigners there.

J: And everybody there worked for Red Jacket Coal?

MM: That's where they threw 'em out of their houses up their down and around Matewan, Stony Mountain Camp there too they threw them out there too.

J: Did you all live in company houses when you were...

MM: Oh, yel, yel and then when they threw us out was that mine strike we lived in tents we lived in a tent for oh, for I guess for a year or so and then we moved uh...into the upper end well we moved down in the lower end of town of Matewan that's where I was born and then we moved in the upper end of town and then back to the lower end of town and stayed there 'til oh, 'til we were all grown up.

J: Did your and mother uh...speak English in the home or did they speak their native languages also?

MM: They spoke both they would speak English I mean their uh... native language, but then we couldn't we were learnin' we were learnin', us kids were learnin'.

J: You were learnin' English then?

MM: No, we were learnin' we were speakin' English, but we were learnin' their native language, but then they separated and we didn't, we didn't pick it up anymore, but for years there we were pickin' up a little bit of it, but, you know, just learnin' as kids.

J: Did you uh...live with your mother after the separation or your father?

MM: Oh, yel, yel I lived with my mother... my dad lived there in town in his plumbing shop he had a shop with his living quarters in the back and he stayed there oh, for years 'till he retired and then he moved up into what they call the Buskirk building and took care of that for Robert Buskirk for years and.

J: Where was this shop?

MM: Right where the uh...uh...right across from the uh...uh...in fact if, you know, where the Kesseee building is now. What they call the Kessee Building there.

J: I'm not sure which one that is.

MM: You know where the Hotel the Buskirk building is.

J: Yeah.

MM: Right straight across the street from it in fact they's some pictures there got the state police standin' up on it when all that trouble was happening. They, they were uh...standin' on top of his building.

J: On top of the Kessee building.

MM: No, on top of the plumbing building, my dad's plumbing shop down there. (someone speaks)

J: Ok. Oh, that was the icehouse.

MM: That was the old ice house after they closed it down he put his plumbing shop in there and had a shoe shop on the other end Lawrence Dint shoe shop.

J: So, you went to local school around Matewan.

MM: Oh, yel I went to Matewan Grade School and played hookie for three years and my dad shaved me bald headed that was a custom you know foreigners and every year he'd shave us kids bald and I the kids would laugh at me and I would run away from school and he put me in jail and he was a jailer too.

J: Your father was.

MM: Yeah, and he put me in jail and, and told me, he put me in jail and he said okay you go home and next year you go back to school when he quit shavin' me bald headed I went right on through school I never missed a year and graduated from Matewan High School.

J: What year did you graduate?

MM: 1940.

J: Was the uh...when he put you in jail for skippin' school, was this the old jail house?

MM: Yel, the old jailhouse I never will forget it they was a drunk in there and I was scared to death of a drunk and dad put me in there and locked put me in the other cell from him and that drunk was trying to sleep and I was screaming and hollering and finally I can hear that old boy that old man hey, Joe come here Joe get this dam kid out of here so I can sleep.

J: Was he yellin' at your father?

MM: He was tellin' Joe to get me out there he was yellin' because I was the one that was cryin' and hollerin' and I was scared of a drunk that was, that was all they was to it, but he uh...he stuck me in there and after three years why I started going to school and he quit shavin' me bald headed and if fact he quit shavin' all of us we started growin' that was along about the time that he and mom separated and we uh...we'd walk to Blackberry City or to North Matewan to get our hair cut for ten cents and ten an fifteen cents that's what they were then.

J: When he shaved you bald headed this is like what he'd call summer hair cut.

MM: Oh, no he would just take clippers go and when it was slick as a pealed onion on top. (Laughter)

J: But, was in the Spring time or.

MM: In the Spring yel, yel.

J: So, you would get shaved and then you would be to [sic] embarrassed to go to school.

MM: Well, in the Spring before school was out and then we'd play hookie and alot of times he'd shave it in the winter time if he thought, I know my sister back in those days lice was common you know you could catch it my sister Lada come home one time and had lice and he took the clippers and went right straight to her and shaved her bald headed as you can be that's the only way they could get rid of 'em, but that, that was the old days and they and he was an old timer to he was one of the Italian emigrants and he didn't that's what they believed in they just, but he was one of the finest fellows that ever was ole after he and mom separated why they never did divorce they just separated and course he uh...he lived there in town and had his shop and I knowed he would give us five dollars a week for groceries and house rent and everything and that's all we lived on unless us kids got out and worked and that's how we and we worked too I can remember mowing peoples grass for twenty-five cents and great big acres of land for twenty-five cents and go up in the head of Red Jacket deliverin' hand bills for the grocery stores and things and the theater and they'd take us up the head of Mitchell Branch holler and my brother up to head of Junior and put us out with a stack of bills and we had to go from house to house.

J: Just like advertising.

MM: And walkin' all the way back to Matewan for twenty-five cents and I mean and then runnin' into that bunch of rough necks at North Matewan and they'd beat the heck out of us and take what bills we had left and throwin' around, scatter 'em around you know it was rough time.

J: Who were these guys?

MM: They lived at North Matewan they were Phillips and Esteps and (laughter) they was all kinds of 'em up 'ere, but every time they'd catch us kids from Matewan up in those places they'd beat the hell out of us.

J: So, there was a rivalry between Matewan and North Matewan and Red Jacket?

MM: Just the kids no just the kids no they wudn't I don't think they call it a rivalry, but I know we'd ride bicycles and if we rode a bicycle boy we catch it they'd take sticks and rocks and everything else beatin' on us and throwin' at us.

J: These guys later become your buddies?

MM: Oh, yel went to school with 'em and best friends we ever had.

J: Was there a movie theater in Red Jacket, I know there was one in Matewan.

MM: No, they never was one in Red Jacket as I can remember, and could you ever remember one, (someone speaks) your thinkin' about up Freeburn, you know they had a community there at Freeburn and then they had an old theater building on the road going toward Phelps. You and me went up there and met the girls there two or three times.

J: What did you all do for dates and recreation and around Red Jacket and Matewan?

MM: We didn't do nothing, but get out and play and run in the mountains and play games at night "spill the milk" they called it and oh, I'll tell ya.

J: "Spill the milk", what's that.

MM: That was just a game that uh...that uh...they'd holler "spill the milk" and you'd have to run to a certain place to the base and if you touched the base before one whoever's tryin' to catch ya, you got in alright, but if you didn't you had to be the one that had to hide your eyes and let everybody else go hide and then try to find 'em oh, it was just a game and we call well, why did we call it "spill the milk". "Go sheepy go", yel that would, that would be a game where they'd, one man or one boy would hide his face and everybody would just take off in different directions and they give oh, kind of a signal wudn't it and uh...if the man that was trying to find was gettin' close to ya they'd have a signal saying something about he's gettin' close, he's gettin' hot, he gettin' hot and if its gettin' cold if he got a good ways they'd say "go sheepy go" and whoever's hidin' take off for the base you know oh, it was we used to have more fun just us kids playing like that that's only recreation you had you didn't have anything when did Tom Carroll put the movie house in didn't he in Matewan and it was down where the uh...John McCoy's uh...ole car wash was 'ere they was an old building there just wood frame building and then uh...then they moved over into the main part of town there and uh...I think Tom put that one in and then Frank Allara bought it out Frank and Terry, yeah Frank and Terry Hope bought it out and that was the only thing to do we couldn't go to the movies we didn't have uh... it was only a dime wudn't it and when we delivered hand bill for the...Frank Allara at the movie house you could see three movies a week, but you had to see the same one three times. (laughter)

J: (Laughter) So you learned to plot pretty well uh...

MM: Oh, listen he was if they ever was one he was a skinner that boy was.

J: Tell me about Frank Allara he's a big name in Matewan it'n he?

MM: He's a big name, but boy he was, he was rough one the kids and rough on people he I tell ya I of course I wouldn't say anything about Frank, but he wasn't liked to well back in those days I don't know how he is now.

J: He's pretty sick right now.

MM: Yel, he's real sick I ask Venchie about him every time I talk to him ask him how Frank's doing, but I can remember him when the colored section sit upstairs 'ere in the theater and we'd slip in he'd have the doors open to air the theater out during the day and we'd slip in there about three or four hours before movie time and go up in the colored section and hide down in the floor so we could see the movie and many a times he'd after the lights had turned out in the theater he'd come up and stand on the top step and when you raised your head up man he didn't take you out and just lead ya out he took you to the door and kicked you out I mean he kicked ya.

J: This was when you're a little kid.

MM: Yel, he kicked ya out the door many a times I'd been booted clear out into the street, but I guess he, he was just tryin' to make a point to us we wudn't suppost to do that.

J: Now a little bit earlier before we started uh...interviewing you were tellin' me about some of your school teachers in Matewan, tell me about some of them and going to school?

MM: Oh, I tell ya, My brother-in-law...my brother-in-law was the toughest on me Stewart Gose, he was, he was one the better school teachers wudn't he, he was principal and teacher and he'd beat me more than that was when I just a kid and uh...but he was just tryin' to teach me what's right and wrong he's dead now to, but uh...Carl Montgomery was a good man, Mrs. Montgomery was good, Mrs. Talbert, Faye Chambers Jim's aunt I guess she was your aunt wudn't she and Eliza Shannon was one of the best I tell ya they we had some good teachers they wudn't no two ways about it and they were just more or less tryin' to teach us right from wrong and I think they did a good job I think they really did a real good job. We all grew up all of our family and Jim's family all grew up to respected the law and respected the teachers and respected our family too, but uh...they were all real nice they were dedicated school teachers is what they were their not like they are now just lookin' for another raise or just something to cause some trouble or something they were good teachers.

J: Did you know Glen Taylor?

MM: Oh, yel Glen Taylor was he was...he came there as a coach in about 1931 or 1932 and was a good was a real good coach and lived down next to where I did and he gave us gave me a basket field goal basket and a basketball and we put it out back and that's where I learned to play basketball and I played through Junior High School and High School and could've gone to Concord on a scholarship just to play basketball, but I didn't do it I went to Bowling Green(?), but Glen Taylor was a good man and he uh...finally got into politics and he eventually just left the House of Delegates and he was Senator wudn't he? Senator Taylor yel, but he was a good man he had a his wife was a good teacher too, Lena Taylor was a good woman too, his son, you know, is right down here in Huntington now he's a U.S. Magistrate and his daughter lives down at Kenova one of 'em and the other one lives somewhere in Tennessee yel.

J: So, you went after you finished high school you went where Bowling Green?

MM: I went to Bowling Green Business University same place Jim went to and then...

J: Was this in Bowling Green Ohio?

MM: No, Bowling Green Kentucky.

J: Kentucky, ok.

MM: And then I came back and Dan Dan was gonna give me a job in the bank, but he didn't have any openings that's Jim's dad and he called up at Red Jacket and they gave me a job in the payroll office for thirty cents an hour for eight hours a day and I told him that I went up at Red Jacket and told 'em said I just got married and expectin' a kid and got furniture and utilities and everything to pay I said I if I can get something else I believe I'd rather have it so they sent me Jim was workin' up in the mine car shop and he was quitin' going into business for hisself, I think that what you was gonna do wudn't it went back to school and so I went up and talked to Dan Moran, who was over the shop and he gave me a job there in the car shop and that, that's when I got into the union I was makin' six dollars and twenty-four cents a day for seven hours and that was good money that was real good money.

J: So, this is 1941.

MM: 1941 yel, and uh...then I stayed there 'til about I stayed there for thirteen months in the shop and then I went down into the warehouse and I worked up to purchasing agent for Red Jacket and then I left there and came with American Car and Foundry and in sales I called on coal mines for America Car and Foundry in uh... Kentucky and West Virginia and Tennessee and Virginia and Alabama Pennsylvania, Indiana, Illinois I had 'em all I was all over the eastern part of the United States and.

J: And you said you came here when 1960.

MM: 1961 and I worked 'til 19 and 83 for America Car and Foundry in Sales.

J: How was uh...business at Red Jacket during the war year War World II year?

MM: Oh, it was good it was real good it was workin' seven and eight, well not eight, six and seven days a week and it was nothing I was in the union I mean I was in I was a company man and they couldn't get the union people to work on a Saturday or Sunday a lot of 'em they'd work five days and that's all they wanted to work and we had a fellow by the Harry Davis, who was he was an electrician he did all the outside power work and I know several times he'd come in the supply house and I worked five days a week at the supply house and I worked five and half days and he'd ask me if I wanted to work with his men and they were union men and I said yel, if they don't have any objections I want to work all I can and I know time and time again he'd come in and tell me now you be here Saturday morning if you don't have to come into the supply house come up to the shop I want you to work Saturday and Sunday many of times I worked all day Saturday and all day Sunday right with the union people they didn't say anything.

J: They didn't object to that at all?

MM: Didn't object at all they were all good friends of mine and but that was the days that when they needed the coal and the boys were all of my brothers and everybody was in service and I know I used to have to take I know I filled out my income tax one time while I was there and I show this taken and supportin' my mother and I did I bought groceries home ever day and of course I was married to and I know when I came here to Huntington they called me in to check my my uh...my Internal Revenue Return and I know I came down the to I didn't go to Huntington I went to Williamson and fella got me in there to check it he said "do you really believe you contributed this much to the welfare of your mother and your family" I said "I absolutely do" he said "well where's all your brothers I said "their all in service their all makin' fifty-two dollars a day once a month" my mothers house she's payin' for it, their payin' for it, and I know he uh...he stood around 'til about ten minutes 'til twelve and I said if you've finish me I got to get back to work I got to get back to Red Jacket and he said " you honestly believe you contributed that much to her I said "yes sir if I didn't I wouldn't have put it down 'ere he stamped it okay and passed it on through and never said anymore, but I know I left Williamson and drove back to Matewan I used to work 'til ten thirty and eleven o'clock at night there in the supply house catchin' up with the work I didn't have time to do during the day, cause they didn't have people to work everybody was in service.

J: Uh...Tell me about workin' in Mose Alley's Apple Orchard?

MM: Oh, in the apple orchard in the fields too, hoein' corn and cleanin' up and prunin' apple trees and pickin' apples and workin' all day long and then if he might bring ya a drink or two or drink of water or somethin' then in the evening why, you got green beans and a potato and piece of corn then after that you had to walk home he didn't take you home you walked on home we did that then why I wudn't down there I was in the evening I'd go why I wudn't down there workin' I'd go in the mountains and get cows for the Chambers, Hallie Chambers and Hallie would milk 'em and we'd stand there (laughing) and he'd take 'em if you'd be standing there around the cow barn flies and everything going he'd take one of them things and squirt that milk all over us kids and them flies would be bothering (laughing) but anyway he'd give me a gallon of milk every evening for going in the mountains and roundin' up all the cows and they was a lot of times they was eight and ten cows to find and they didn't stay together they went everyway and I'd bring'em in and they'd give me a lard bucket one of those what was it a pound or two pound lard bucket or something full of milk and I'd take it home and mom would put it in the refrigerator in the icebox that's what we drank for breakfast and for lunch.

J: Did most people get to milk fresh that way?

MM: Oh, yel that's the only way they could get it mom used to have a cow after that she bought a cow and we put it down under the river bank where we lived down there and she had uh...underneath this little out house and we made a place for the cow and my mom thought of much the cow as she did us we cleaned that out every morning and put straw down and everything and in the winter time we sealed it so that cow had a nice warm place she if her cow was cold and she thought it was cold she didn't sleep and we had hogs down over the bank there and we built a hog pen right next to the river so that when we cleaned we had to clean it out everyday we'd go down there and get in the river and take buckets and throw water up in there to wash it out to clean it out that's the way she was with her animals and things she didn't believe in mistreatin' 'em.

J: Your mother and the farm animals, did uh...Now, after your mother and father separated and your father provided you said some of the, some of the money.

MM: If he had it.

J: Did your mother have a way of generatin' any income? Did you sell any of these hogs and pork?

MM: Oh, no we kept that and we'd kill 'em and eat 'em ourselves and of course the cow we kept that for the milk and she had a few chickens along for eggs, but mom worked for people around in town there she did all their warshin' and she'd go to Mrs. H.S. White who we rented from and the house you could see through the cracks at night if the moon was bright she could see the light from it and mom would go to her house every day and clean her house and then in the evening after they got through eatin' they were Senator White and she was a postmaster so they had plenty and after they got through eatin' what was left ma they would give it to mom and she'd bring it home to us and that's what we had and for the next day maybe some of it, but mom worked she was she warshed clothes and iron clothes for people and cleaned house she killed herself workin'.

J: How long did she live?

MM: She was uh...69 when she died, but uh...course after the boys got in service Venchie and Frankie and Joe and Bernard all of 'em where in service and us kids were out workin' we'd where ever we could find a job why we'd just you know we'd work, but after that why she didn't have to go out and work like that she took it a little bit easy and just stayed at home and took care of the house. But, mom was a worker I tell ya she I just sittin' the other day thinkin' about how easy the women have it now just take clothes and throw 'em in the warsher or dryer or something I've seen her out in the yard carryin' water and buildin' a big fire under a tub and with a warsh, warsh board, day in and day out and...

J: Carry water up from the river?

MM: Carrying water from down in the river up to heat it to warsh her clothes that was right in front of the sewer right the sewer was right in the back of our house 'ere and if we went down there to fish if we caught these old big Carp great big Carp we'd bring'em home and she'd clean 'em and cook 'em, fry 'em and that's all we had to eat you know it was just a matter of survivin' what it was and of course dad as I said he said he worked for people, but the people that he worked for couldn't pay him and when he did get money why he would give us five dollars a week and that was for groceries, house rent, lights everything we didn't have water and it along about the oh, in the, in the, about the middle '30's I know we had a spigot out on the back porch a cold water just a cold water spigot I guess it come from the town of Matewan, but it wasn't good water and it was good you could drink it they said it was good, we drank it never did kill any of us, but I know of many of many time I've gone out 'ere and in cold weather and got under that and let 'em turn on and take a bath cause we didn't have hot water or nothing didn't have nothing we Venchie talkin' about Venchie many of time Venchie would run to the tunnel and back down the railroad track a mile down and a mile back and then wake me up and tell me to he'd fill that tub up full of cold water and get down on the ground and I'd tip it over on 'em to warsh him off and then he would go to work at Mingo Lime & Lumber Company and work all day and he worked loadin' and unloadin' box cars and delivery Venchie bought me my first suit of clothes and that's when I was graduatin' from high school and I know he came to me and Venchie and Frankie all my brothers and sisters were good they helped it was a family they helped each other and I know Venchie came to me and ask me if I was going to the Junior and Senior Prom and I said "well I'd like to, but I don't have anything to wear" and he had started workin' at Mingo Lime and he went over to Schaeffer's, Schaeffer Brothers Department Store and told Ben Arin he says Mack's gonna come in here and said fix 'em him up with a suit and charge it to me and I'll pay ya and I kept that suit I got that in 19 and...about 19 and 39 and I kept that suit to way up into 19 and 50. I wore it on the weekends that's what I had, but he bought my first suit of clothes and Venchie and Frankie and Joe my brother that just passed away he was in the navy and he'd send I know he'd send me and Cattie my wife we had the two kids, but were just barely makin' it and he'd send us money that he would have left over from his allotment and he wouldn't spend it he'd write out a check put it in the bank and write a check and send to us to help us out we were all brought up that way to help each other.

J: When you were kids and you get sick would your mother treat you or would call in a doctor?

MM: Oh, no well, they had a doctor in town 'ere they was a fellow by the name of Dr. Sanders I don't know if some of 'em call him Sanders and some of 'em Sanders, but Dr. Whitt was the dentist and Dr. Sanders was the medical doctor and if mom couldn't do anything for us she'd take us to him we never had money to pay for it we had to charge it and then tell him that we'd pay or mom would pay if she got the money and it uh...milk and stuff she had the cow would take things like that and give it to the doctor's or Dr. Whitt was a good man he was one of the best doctor dentist that we ever in Matewan he'd always took us kids fishin', do you remember that? Many of time after the week on Saturday he'd come around and get us up and take us over on the on the Livisa River over in Grundy, Virginia and fish all night long Saturday night and come into Justice, West Virginia on Sunday and fish 'ere in the Guyann Dot River and then Sunday night bring us back home and he'd feed us.

J: Take a whole bunch of ya.

MM: Take a bunch of us and he'd feed us and we didn't, we didn't have any money and he get money out of his own pocket and buy us food and was just one of the finest old men they ever was in that town. George Lucky was another, was a good man George Lucky was good one he owned a drug store and he would take ya in his car take ya different places John Brown the colored, colored laundry man had a laundry and John Brown had a car one of the few people that had a car he'd take us over on Pigeon Creek on a Sunday morning after Sunday School and Church and let us play ball over there, you remember that play ball all day and then bring us back home and just things like that that's only thing we had to do they wudn't nothing for us to do no place no recreation at all, but John Brown was good man and uh... they talked about the colored being mistreated they should've been back in my days when I was just a kid and was an Italian growin' up I've had merchants right there in Matewan to stand out on the street I was goin' with ones daughter one time and you know just puppy love and he told her I took her home one night from the show and he told her he says get in here and get away from that dam tallie and...

J: tallie?

MM: called us tallie and huks(?) And I said dag-gone-it I didn't take it out on him and go knock his windows out at his place of business or burn his house down or so I just went on and I said "well if he don't want me to associate with her I won't do it and I didn't, but she...she kept coming back for me to and it was just something that I just don't condone the way these blacks are doing burnin' things and destroy property heck fire they didn't have any rougher than I did when I was growin' up as a little Italian boy.

J: I know this uh...you mentioned uh...a bias against emigrants Italians and eastern Europeans I guess mostly, uh...a lot of that was typical of Klan activity back in the '20's and '30's. Was the Klan active in Mingo County?

MM: Oh, yel I can remember standin' on my front porch 'ere were right were the bank is now and watchin' the Ku-Klux-Klan march through town they didn't play around with they tarred 'em and feathered 'em if a man was going out and runnin' around with another man's wife or something why I know at that time I hate to say this but I know it was rumored that my dad was datin' old Ethel Keatley you remember her and that uh...the Ku-Klux-Klan was gonna get him and it was rumored that and he was told that if he didn't stop it that they was gonna get him tar and feather him and he quit it, but it was just one of those things that back in those why all that happened and growin' up in Matewan was uh... was uh...a real I don't know what you would call it, but it was a treat to look back grow up in Matewan and look back at it now and see how it is now and the way things are.

J: Its got the reputation of being a pretty tough little town.

MM: Oh, it was tougher than a...

J: What can you tell me about that? How did it get that reputation?

MM: It was tougher than a pine knot I tell ya well mainly was that Baldwin-Felts killin' and all that and then, and then uh... when John L. Lewis finally did get the union in and every time there was uh...a new contract coming up why they was a lot of violence and uh...but Matewan was just bad for drunks they people didn't the older people didn't have anything to do and they laid around drunk and get in fights and shoot and kill each other, but us kids we never had any trouble and as we grew they grew out of that see the older ones when it passed on and us kids playin' together colored and white every other kind we, we uh...learned to live with each other, but uh...

J: Now did they have after say after prohibition or say in the '40's uh...Did they have still have bootleggin' and moonshinin' going on in the area, did they have saloon's down town?

MM: Oh, they had beer joints and in the '40's they uh...I don't think there was very much boot-leggin' gonna on they, they kind of put the quietus on that, but you could buy just go in any beer establishment and get any kind of drink you wanted, but now as far as whiskey the state uh...had their own liquor stores and we never did have very much bootleggin' goin' on did we I didn't, of course I was young I didn't notice it too much. (Jim speaks - I've got more experience in that line than Mack does)

J: We'll cover that later.

MM: Yel, Jim can tell you more about that but see I never did drink I didn't drink or chew tobacco the only thing I smoked was cigar that Jim stoled every now and then, (laughter) but no uh... I didn't, I didn't, I couldn't I laid around in the pool hall and played pool, but I didn't drink and my mother didn't have to worry about us none of us drank and, and uh...caused trouble I know all of us kids grew up right in the thick of it but uh...we just never did uh...never take to drinkin' and fightin' we never had fights oh, I did when I was a kid maybe another kid would get into a scrap, but that didn't last for five or ten minutes then we were with our arms around each other and playin' again but all time I was growin' up I never, I never had a fight, but I don't even remember Venchie or Frankie or Joe or any of 'em ever causin' any trouble into fights or anything we were just brought up that way. Mom of course dad he wasn't with us to much, but uh...mom taught us uh...right from wrong and.

J: Several people have mentioned to me, since you were connected with Red Jacket I want to be sure to ask you this they told me about the ball club that the company used to sponsor up in there was that a pretty big deal goin' on there?

MM: That was a pretty good thing, they had some baseball players of course I didn't I never played the ball players was before my time up at Red Jacket, I know I used to go watch 'em and uh... they had some real good baseball teams and Red Jacket sponsored 'em they gave those boys jobs which helped a heck of a lot and I know after I got to workin' at Red Jacket, uh...we I liked to play basketball a lot and we'd have intermule basketball there we'd we got us a team of just the employees 'ere and they let us use the recreation building at Red Jacket and we oh, we had a pretty good bunch of boys that played all the time played basketball at night after work they worked during the day, but in evenings why we'd all gather there and have never had any trouble everybody played and got along good never had no fights or nothing just ole ever now and then you'd see a scrap or something but nothing to amount to anything but Red Jacket was a real good company one of the best they were just uh...William Rider was I know I when I first when I was workin' took the job that Jim had and he just come there they had a fellow by the name of E. E. Rider was General Superintendent and E.E. was William's dad who eventually was president and he was president of the W.M. Rider Lumber Company and of the Coal Company and William was a young fellow just got out of Princeton wudn't he Princeton University and he came there and I know I was workin' in the mine car shop and he came up there ask Dan Moran if he could use us as like as a bullgang to pick up scrap they had a scrap drive you know during the war to for the government and he would stand around if we were workin' pretty hard he was the type that he'd say boys rest awhile don't don't...just take your time and then he'd go to the store and bring us pop, cakes and everything and, but he got to be my boss and he was the one that transferred me from Red Jacket, West Virginia to King Mountain, Virginia as purchasing agent and when his kids was born he came over and brought me cigars to for his kids he was one of the finest boys that ever was and he died, I never will forget I was over at Republic Steels Mine over at uh...Marrowbone Kentucky outside of Pikeville between Pikeville and Jenkins and I came in there one day to call on uh...Mr. Hunt who was the purchasing agent and William had transferred if fact he gave me a job and called me Roanoke wanted me to go with the lumber company after he'd left after the coal company sold out I went down to Roanoke and talked to them about going with the lumber company down in Halsberry, North Carolina, but anyway I didn't do it I didn't take the job and I know I came into Mr. Hunt's office that day I was out on the road and my wife didn't call and tell me about William dyin' he passed away and uh...in Georgia and as I walked in Mr. Hunt's office he said "Mack didn't you used to work for Red Jacket" and I said yel, yel work for 'em about sixteen years and I said why he said well did you know that feller Rider that passed away and I said I didn't know it I've been out on the road who was it he said used to be president I said William Rider and said yel I said lord no I didn't know it I would've sent flowers or tried to go to the funeral, but he was already buried for I knew anything about it.

J: He was just a young man wudn't he?

MM: Young man he was one of the finest young men that company or any other company ever had ever had he just that type of fellow he was one of the best I just thought the world of him I said I'd never worked I had never worked for anybody as good as he was or as nice as he was we I came with ACF I had two people that I worked for was good one of 'em was Frank Clinche was my boss sales manager and the other one was Don Martini who was plant manager they were just, they were William Rider and those two were I'd compare each one of 'em with the other they were just that kind of people.

J: Did you work for uh...for a awhile for Island Creek after they'd bought out Red Jacket?

MM: I worked about they bought out Red Jacket in January the 1st, 1956 and I left 'em May the 30th, 1956. I worked about four months.

J: So, you were with 'em a few months. Was there any did you leave for any particular reason in difference in management or was it strictly the career?

MM: Well, they was uh...it wasn't the management it was some of the people that I had to work with and they wudn't managers at all they were just uh...in the warehouse in the supply end of it and I know one of 'em come over there and and uh...walked in the office 'ere one day and he was an overbearing fellow and he was from right up here at Hurricane and he said "off and on your feet your now workin' for Island Creek" just that way I turned around and told him I said "let me tell you something bud I never have been on my rearend when I work I work and he sit around and come in 'ere and sit for days all day long tellin' about his hobo trips and then at night he'd say your gonna come back tonight and work and I got to where I said no, no sir I'm tired of listening to your hobo trips and your runnin' around that's what I'm here for during the day and if you wanna to work we'll work during the day, but I'm not coming back down here with you at night so then I had a salesman from ACF and another salesman from HK Quarter at that time with the steel mill callin' on me and they knew I was gettin' ready to leave so they talked to Frank Cooch here in Huntington Sales Manager and ask him if he had anybody in and another salesman was gonna quit and ask if anybody had been hired and he said no and they said I know a fellow that would make you a good man if you want to talk to him and he called me and said he was coming over to talk to me and he came by and talk to me for about fifteen minutes and he said I want ya and if you wanna to go to work for us you can start the first of the month and that's how I got with ACF and I spent twenty-eight years with 'em.

J: There's a couple of men that...or people that you've mentioned already I want to ask you a little bit more about uh...This fellow Brown that ran the laundry now he was a black business man that correct?

MM: John Brown.

J: Did he do business with uh...with all the people around town or?

MM: That was the cleaning, pressing shop.

J: That was the laundry room in town.

MM: That was the laundry mat there in Matewan.

J: And where was it?

MM: Right in Matewan.

J: What building?

MM: Over next to were Uncle Reece Chambers lived he had...he had an old shop there on the side of the mountain over there and...uh...

J: Across the railroad tracks there.

MM: Across the railroad track back of the station and uh...

J: Did he have a delivery service?

MM: No, he uh...oh, I think at one time John had uh...he would deliver if you wanted it, but it was cheaper if you pick up yourself like me he may charge you a nickel for deliver it or something or two or three cents, but in those days two or three and a nickel was a lot of money.

J: This is in the '30's maybe?

MM: Oh, yel back in the '20's and '30's yel late '20's and early '30's but John Brown was a good man and he uh...he just uh...and he called everybody Mr. he didn't go up to like Jim's dad and Dan Chambers and say Dan I want this he said "Mr. Chambers" Mr. everything and if he and I know when I got in high school if I'd see him around he didn't call me Mack he called me Mr., Mr. Morrell he was one of the, one of the better colored fellows in the whole community and he was a good man he was good to us kids that's, that's for sure.

J: Now, he had a car you said. One of the few cars in town.

MM: He had a car and he'd load us kids up on a Sunday after Church, he never would take you away from Sunday and Church, but just soon as Sunday school was over if you didn't go to Church why he rounded 'em up and he'd say see 'em during the week and he'd now if you boys want to play ball Sunday we'll go over on Pigeon Creek and he'd load us in the car we look like sardines in it we packed in there just like sardines, but and if they was any stoppin' or buyin' anything he paid for it if we got our drink he paid for it we didn't have any money.

J: Hiram Phillips told me that uh...you all used to play ball in the river when you were kids.

MM: Oh, yel.

J: He'd call it the sandbar league.

MM: Right down, right down on the river bank, see that was before that bottom was filled in yel, that was all that's what a whole lot of trouble in Matewan was floodin' that used to be nothing but bottom down in there and they was an awful lot of water in that bottom and then when they put that new road in down through there into Hatfield bottom they brought all that in there and filled it in the US Engineers told 'em that it would make the channel of water flow faster I know my mother let 'em dump it in the back there and fill all that in she said the Engineers tell us that it will make the water flow faster I said "yel it will make it flow faster but where's that water gonna go" she said they say it no bother nothing I said well its your property and your the one that's doin' it, but I sure wouldn't let 'em dump it in there and if I was the town of Matewan I wouldn't let 'em dump it in there, but they did and right after they did that why we started havin' the floods in Matewan just warshin' everything out.

J: When did they do that?

MM: That was in uh...well, let's see that was in about 19 and the first flood we had was in 19 and 57 and that was in the early 50's.

J: And then flooding got worse after that.

MM: Flooding got worse after that in '57 it was forty some inches up forty some inches deep on our refrigerator in our house and our house was off of the ground about four feet, five feet and I know I had to come in 'ere and work there for three weeks clean out, torn the furnace down and cleaned the furnace out and got all the mud out of it and then after that it just common occurrence '57 was the first one, '63, '68, '74 no, '77, '84 and then I can tell you the days of all of 'em just I know I had to go in 'ere the last one in '77 or '84...'77 the big one when it warshed the house away and everything I know I couldn't get in I called and they said you can't get it and I went...

J: You called from Huntington.

MM: Yel, my sister was there, my brother Venchie was up at Red Jacket I couldn't get a phone call through and I finally that happened on uh...I was in Richmond, Virginia I'd gone to Richmond I flew to Richmond to see my son and his family and we flyin' back my wife and I flew back into Charleston and we got home that night no rain or nothing and next morning they said that Matewan was under water everything was warshed away and I said well where's all the rain we didn't see any rain hadn't heard any so that was on a Monday and on Wednesday I got to Matewan I tried to got into Matewan went down nothing our house was gone nothing but the foundation, my brother's house was gone everything in town was just about gone and I ask around about Lyda my sister they said well we don't know she's uh...last I heard she was up the holler 'ere at Dewey Hatfield's house Dewey was dead, but Grace so I went up the holler there they were them old people Lyda and Mrs. Fargeous and several others and there no toilets facilities no nothing, no food, no water and I said good lord how can you stand all this and I know I went out... I went up to Red Jacket to the store there and got water and food and stuff and brought it down, but uh...and Lyda said uh...I want to go down and see the house and I said Lyda they's no house there.

J: It was gone completely.

MM: Yel, she said what ya mean they hadn't told her none of 'em had told her they knew it was gone and she said well you mean I don't have a house I said no the house is gone Frankie's house is gone, yours is gone, everything is gone, Wall Greens is gone, they's nothing down there and that just tore her up that liked to killed her right there but she uh...survived it and got a trailer and put in 'ere the government gave her a trailer and it wudn't long after that 'til that one was gone it was seventy.

J: It got washed to.

MM: Yel, it just warshed it I was coming from Kingsport Tennessee with her that day and I we was coming home from my sister's down there and when we got to over to almost to Pikeville Kentucky the road was blocked the Levisa River was backed up into the highway, I had to go back almost to Grundy and back down around to Pikeville to get in. I came into Williamson from the Pikeville side and they had the fire trucks and everything tryin' to warsh the city of Williamson out to keep...to get the mud out of it and uh... we got up to Matewan I got right into Matewan and I said Lyda I believe your trailer I think its gone cause if that water was in Williamson like that it had to be in Matewan, so when we got out there there was the trailer turned right upside down.

J: This is '84 flood?

MM: '84 yel, and uh...then from that went to Tennessee and stayed with my sister there in Kingsport and when she was in Matewan she stayed with Fonnie Whitt, Dr. Whitt 'ere, Fonnie was good to her and liked her and Lyda liked her, Lyda stayed there for several months and stayed with her when she come in and then I'd go by and pick her up and take her to Tennessee to see Mattie she came down and stayed with me for oh, I guess for a couple of months, but she just wudn't satisfied after her trailer and house warshed away and she didn't she never did pull out of it after that she just started going down hill, but that uh...those were the days up 'ere I tell ya and I can't see there puttin' all that money in there and spendin' on that flood wall and everything now they ain't nothing there to protect unless they want to protect what few buildings is there, but if you'd seen that place thirty years ago forty years ago that was a beautiful town, that was a beautiful town.

J: Boomin' little town uh...

MM: Boomin' and trees everything green and nice trees and nice yards and but gosh I just hate to go through there now I hate to drive through it oh, I don't even go through it, when I go up...

MM: I don't even go downtown I go around through Blackberry City and up to Phelps Kentucky and cross over to Elkhorn City and down to Jenkins and that way into Kingsport, but see I lived in Richlands for about Richlands, Virginia for about five years and I go we go back through there every now and then and see people that we know and visit with them awhile, but Matewan is not like it used be oh, gosh I don't know what they can do to bring it back I really don't I think its just a waste of money, they ought to go up 'ere and take everybody and put 'em back in business up in the higher grounds and build a whole new town that thing.

J: Do you think uh...strip mining plays a role in flooding around there?

MM: Oh, that was the biggest part of it, it was the biggest part of it and then fillin' that bottom in was for Matewan that's one thing I could never understand about Red Jacket, the Red Jacket Coal Corporation when I was in the supply house there workin' at Red Jacket they brought the that's when they first started strip mining and they brought 'em in there and they had those people that work for 'em down 'ere living in those houses and they'd go back on the mountain and had these big boulders oh, weighed three and four, five tons come off that mountain right through there house just lucky it didn't kill people, but that didn't phase 'em a bit they just say well we'll fix it back up I never could see that and then when the floods when the water and rains come all that mountain warshed out. Warm Holler up 'ere that I've seen that look like it was dag-gone I don't know what it warshed the railroad tracks out there in Matewan and everything that's strip mining did it back there I never could see the State of West Virginia lettin' 'em strip, but they did it and.

J: Was it did Red Jacket start that or Island Creek?

MM: Oh, no Red Jacket started I was in...

J: When did that get started?

MM: That was way back in the forties in fact it was right after I went in the supply house about '42 or '43 Daniels Coal Company come in from down here at Orange Virginia and had their shovels and dozers and went back up in Mitchell Branch holler and was strippin' that just tore that holler all to pieces I never could understand Red Jacket let 'em do that, but they I guess they were just out for the dollar, but that, I'd say the biggest part of that flooding that's caused in Matewan now is from strip mining the river beds filled in and no place for that stuff to go except down in 'ere.

J: Didn't do much for the water system either does it?

MM: Oh, no absolutely not.

J: Uh...Tell me something about Greenway Hatfield, he's a name that pops up all the time and uh.

MM: I didn't know Greenway, I knew him when I'd see him, but I didn't know much about him he was when I first heard of Greenway it was when he was High Sheriff and of course he built that building there in Matewan that big building there they call it Hillberties Apartments now, but uh...like Jim and I were talking about he owned that Hatfield Bottom, he owned all of it down in 'ere and he had the prisoners from the jail there in Williamson sent up 'ere to work worked on his farm.

J: He was sheriff of Mingo County.

MM: He was sheriff of the Mingo, Mingo County and uh...but I didn't know Greenway to well I'd see him you know see 'em out he'd come through Matewan ever now and then or but as far as seein' what kind of a fellow he was or I couldn't tell ya anything about it, but now Venchie probably could tell you more about him but did Venchie tell you anything about Greenway.

J: A little bit, yeah.

MM: Venchie was older and he knew more...more about Greenway than I did, but I just I couldn't say anything good or I couldn't say anything bad about him he was just uh...I imagine he was a pretty smart man he had to be to be sheriff and to have all that he had.

J: Now, when you uh...you said earlier that you didn't drink or smoke but you used to shoot a little pool, where did you shoot pool? Dewey Hatfield run that?

MM: Dewey Hatfield's place yel, yel I used to Harry Nenni had it after Dewey sold out and I worked for Harry and uh...during while I was in the right after I got out of Bowling Green Business University if fact I worked for Harry and Dewey while I was goin' to school I worked for Dewey, but I didn't Harry because I worked for Harry after I come back out of school, but I know in Bowling Green down there Ivies Restaurant, you remember Ivies I used to go down there and these old country boys coming in 'ere goin' to school and they couldn't shoot pool worth a darn and I was raised on a pool table and I know at nights or I'd go down there and we'd play a quarter a ball five, seven and nine just nine balls on the table and whoever made the five, seven and nine if you made all three of 'em everybody in the game had to quarter for each ball oh, that kept me in Bowling Green for a long time.

J: Paid your way through school uh.

MM: It helped and my wife Cattie would come down there and stayed and we lived there in Bowling Green while I was going to school and uh...if it hadn't been for that she couldn't have come down there and then after that Glen Taylor we's talkin' about Glen Taylor he was House of Delegates in Charleston and Mrs. Taylor wrote Cattie and ask her to come and help her take care of the kids in Charleston while Glen was in Legislator and they sent her money to come on the bus she came home and went to Charleston and stayed with them there for oh, gosh for six or eight months and I was in Bowling Green and I'd when I, I worked there in the restaurant I rack pool and served beer and sandwiches after school I went down there in the evening and when it wudn't real busy if I got in a pool game Mr. Ivy told me he said "now Mack when your busy I'd rather you wouldn't play and I said well okay if you think that I shouldn't I won't he said its alright when your not real busy but don't fall behind on rackin' balls on the other tables if somebody hacks the floor for you need a rack you have to go and I said many a time I've come home at night them old country boys coming in 'ere from Kentucky to Bowling Green they didn't even know how to hold a cue stick and I many a night I've taken home ten and fifteen dollars and that was good money in those days.

J: Did you have trouble findin' a game when you were in Matewan though, people knew you could play there.

MM: Oh, no, no they yel you played there, but they were all too good for me in Matewan.

J: A bunch of sharks uh.

MM: Yel, they were a bunch of sharks Pearlie Epling anybody tell ya about Pearlie.

J: Not about shootin' pool.

MM: Oh, he was a pool shark oh, gosh he was one of the best Jelly Roll Brown was another one Jelly Roll Brown was the best pool shot that I've ever seen in Matewan. I've never seen one like him.

J: Did much money cross the table on these games?

MM: Oh, yel, yel gosh yel, I'd sit there in that pool room of many of many days all day long and watch 'em and shoot for any wudn't a quarter a ball it be a dollar a ball five, seven and nine, but Jelly Roll Brown and Pearlie Epling was about two of the best pool sharks in Matewan that I knew of, but uh...

J: Jelly Roll Brown, what was his real name?

MM: Harry Brown he's still livin I think he's over at, yel he's still livin over on right out of Grundy Virginia up on Home Creek they call it, Home Creek Virginia and uh...

J: Was he a white guy or black guy?

MM: White guy, white guy and talkin' about black now ole Bill Jackson who used to rent a pool room there and he's black and he was a pool shark too, but I was younger then and I didn't get around in the pool rooms too much and watch, but I've heard 'em talk about Bill Jackson was a pool shark he runned the pool room there for a fellow by the name of Cy wudn't it, was a black man he was...

J: Tom Kearnes "K.E.A.R.N.E.S."

MM: Yel, he was one of the old timers there he was in WWI and I remember when they got that bonus, do you remember when they got the bonus. The government came out with a bonus for the WWI veterans and old Tom was one of the finer colored fellows there in Matewan and I never will forget that when he passed you on the street he was like most of the colored in those days it was Mr. he never if he saw a lady a white lady or anybody he'd take his hat off he was always polite and I know I never will forget when he got his bonus it was around $300 hundred dollars that he got and it was back in rough times to I mean it was tough and don't you know he got that money and it didn't last him a week or ten days to the merchants there in town and those other people around 'ere the drunks and winos had beat that old man out of everything he had.

J: Hustled him out of it.

MM: Just hustled him out of it and he was a good ole colored man Tom Kearnes was he was another John Brown of course Tom Kearnes didn't have anything but he was one of the politest negroes that I've ever seen in my or colored fellers in my life.

J: So, he and Bill Jackson both fought in WWI?

MM: Yel, I think they were both in that in that patilian they were together.

J: I think that was either the three eighty ninth or the eighty ninth, I never can remember the...

MM: I can't either but I know it was they were together they were two real good colored people that came out of Matewan.

J: Now where was the pool room that Bill Jackson operated?

MM: It was right there in the Hillberties building right where the old Hatfield building right across from oh, well right down the street from John McCoy's place two or three doors down from there is where Bill Jackson's pool room was I don't think he owned it he ran for some white fellow but I don't who own...I think the fellow by the name of Sign, S.I.G.N. he was a foreigner he owned the restaurant and pool room and Bill Jackson run it for him, but he was Bill Jackson was one of the good ones too he was another one.

J: I heard they used to be some high powered card games going in the back of the bus station, when John McCoy ran that place?

MM: Oh, that was Jim can tell you that. I tell ya I was one of the good fellers Jim was one of the bad one's.

J: I'll ask ya about one more guy and I'll let you off the hook this is been real good. Ira Cooper everybody has something to tell about Ira Cooper I didn't realize he had been a state policeman before he was mayor?

MM: My opinion Ira Cooper was a good man a lot of people didn't like him a lot of people despised the ground he walked on but Ira Cooper was always good he sold Insurance he was with Metropolitan Insurance company for years and that's how he made his money and he sold me a policy that cost me thirteen cents or something a week when I first bought it and it finally got up to I think it was around 26 cents or 27 cents a week I kept it for several years on my wife not on me he sold it to me on her when we were married and it hadn't been too long ago she said you know we've got that old policy don't pay over $10 or $1200 dollars said let's just cash that thing in we got all this other Insurance. But like I was tellin' you awhile ago Ira Cooper was mayor of the town and when I came back from Bowling Green and Ira run a hardware store there he took it over from Broggies, (Jim says Chambers Hardware) Chambers Hardware he took it over from Broggs and he had the funeral home he owned a funeral home too and A. C. Jackson was the mortician and Jackson would call me every time that had a body to pick up or somebody was killed or something he'd call me and I'd go with him to pick the body up and bring it back and then I'd help him at the funeral home but I got to where I told Ira I said Ira I'm gonna have to find me job where I can make a little bit more money I'm just not makin' enough to support my family he said well I'll tell what I do he said you come over to the store I'm gonna take Kate a letter and have my secretary to type it and I still got it I've got it over to the house it's a nice letter he really gave me a good recommendation he said this is one of the finest young men that I have ever had the privilege of knowin' and I don't care who he goes to work for he'll make one of the best workers that ever was and he went on saying he came from a family that was they were foreigners and they came in to Matewan they have worked hard and he said that they just no better people than Mack Morrell or his family he went on tellin' all this and I but Ira Cooper was and I know many of times he want to go somewhere and he didn't want to drive and he'd call me and ask me what I was doin' and want to know if I'd drive him take him to different places and I said well sure if I'm not doing anything Ira I'll be glad to take ya. But uh...he was one of the good ones and Hubert Perry was a good one I don't know whether anybody has mentioned Hubert Perry he was mayor there in Matewan and he had a hardware store after Cooper, but he was another one he was just one of the we had we just had a bunch of good people now that's all you can say Matewan got the name of being a rough place, but if you knew the people and the people knew you and you minded your own business there wasn't any better in there over the United States was it never a better place and only place I can remember I'm scared to go to is Delbarton listen that was a rough now they thought Matewan was rough it was nothing compared to Delbarton and that was up in the '40's too. But uh...it was Matewan is just a good town had good people Ira Cooper was one of the best that I say a lot of people didn't like him I thought the world of him he was just he was a friend to everybody that he could be and he tried to help everybody but a lot of people didn't like him and I couldn't understand why because he was a good man.

J: So the job recommendation he wrote for you was to Island Creek?

MM: No, it was just to whom ever it concerned.

J: Oh, just for who ever you had to apply a job for.

MM: Every time I went out to apply for a job I took that with me and showed it to 'em and he had it signed as Mayor of Matewan Ira Cooper, Mayor and uh...

J: I want to be sure I get your wife's maiden name and the date of your marriage and the name of your children?

MM: Cattie my wife's maiden name was Katherine Lee Robinson "R.O.B.I.N.S.O.N." and uh...we were married on February the 25th, 19 and 40 we were still in high school.

J: She was a local girl?

MM: Well, she came from Richlands, Virginia she was Stewart Gose who was our principal in when I was in graded school she was his brother-in-law her sister had married Stewart in the early '30's and she they were teachin' in Matewan, but uh...she came to Matewan and that's where I met her and we were married in 1940 and we have three kids Stewart is workin' for uh...what's this new oil company took over gulf Chevron he was workin' for gulf he had spent 19 years with gulf in Richmond Virginia and then Chevron bought 'em and they transferred him to California and he just sold his home in California and resigned from Chevron and he's movin' to Florida he's forty...he's forty uh...47 years old and my daughter Patricia is married to Gary Trussell they live in Waverdale, Ohio and she has uh...well, Stewart's got two boys Shawn and Kevin Morrell their both of 'em are out of high school now and going to college and Patricia lives in Waverdale, Ohio her husband works for General Electric at Pebeles he's the one that tests these jet motors and things and they have a little boy Scott and he's here now helpin' me clean around over at the house and trimin' hedge and everything he's out of high school this is his second year of college and then Mike lives downtown here in Huntington he spent ten year with ACF in quality Insurance and now he's workin' for Orange in Illinois Glass Company and he has two kids and his wife is Betty Joe, but now they have uh...Randy is a little girl she's 6 and Chad's little boy he's 16 months old but uh...Stewart is divorced and his wife lives in Richmond and of course he's the two boys and their movin' to Florida in July they bought a home down 'ere and I don't know where he's gettin' his money but he paid $135,000 thousand dollars for a home and I told 'em he had more money than he had sense and its a cider block stuck old building I can't see it but he says he's got a swimming this and that and it's out on about a acre of land so their all doin' well everyone 'em Mike was out of work for awhile, but he went to uh...a school to learn computer and electronics and he's been doin' that and he's workin' Orange Illinois so he's doin' alright now he's there all gettin' along good.

J: What would your mother or father's reaction had been in 1940 if you told 'em you were buying a $135,000 thousand dollar house somewhere or a comparable price for that day?

MM: They'd said my mother would've said "woo we" (laughter) she'd said I don't understand 'em, I don't understand 'em, she was that way she'd say things that just really got you a lot of times she'd say things to me "woo we" what's matter you, what's matter you nothin' mom you gonna have to change your ways you can change your ways and dad he never said nothin' he never was home enough what we were doing but mom she was one that I give all the credit to for raisin' us the way we all come up everyone of us of course dad had took part in it to I never saw my dad drunk or never saw him take a drink of whiskey in his life or in my life I knew he drank because a lot of times I'd be around I could smell him were you know smell whiskey, but as far as seeing him drunk I never, never saw him drunk we never had beer we never had whiskey or nothin' in our house when we were growin' up my mother didn't believe in it of course if dad had he had it away from the house it wudn't at home.

J: Was there a Catholic Church in Matewan?

MM: No, it was in Williamson that's the reason see we were all Catholics my dad and mother were Catholics, but no automobiles no way of gettin' to the Catholic Church mom wound up in the Baptist Church but dad only time he ever went to church I can remember when they had him at the funeral home they took him to his funeral in the Methodist Church that's the only time I ever remember, but us kids ever Sunday morning and back in those days the foreigners they believed in the kids wearin' white I had a white suit just a shirt and pants Frankie, Venchie all of 'em had it but every Sunday morning and the girls too we marched off to Sunday School we had seven cents, two cents was to put into collection and five cents was to get us an ice cream cone when we come back.

J: And you went to Baptist Church?

MM: Yes, sir oh, I went to the Methodist mom went to the Baptist and dad didn't go to any, but uh...all the kids everyone of us kids went to the Methodist but mom the Baptist Church was just up the street from our house just a little ways and she would in the evenings when they had church she would walk up there and she attended the Baptist but uh...

J: Who was the preacher at the Baptist Church?

MM: Oh, we had several of 'em we had a fellow by the name of Whittaker, not Whittaker what was uh...oh, gosh we've had several of 'em at the Baptist or at the Methodist Church uh...Preacher Gose was one, Stewart Gose my brother-in-law's father was one and they's several of 'em I can't think of their names right off but, but uh...see we were just kids and then Sunday School but uh...they were all good I was just trying to think of the one there that I used to date his daughter when I was just a kid I'd go see her her name was Margie can't think of their last name now but that gosh that was 50 years ago. (laughter)

Matewan Oral History Project Collection