Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Marshall Kirk Interview

John Hennen: Sound check on mic one, narrator's microphone, June 26, 1989, Monday. Sound check on mic two, interviewer's microphone June 26, 1989. Its Monday afternoon. This is John Hennen from the Matewan Development Center, I'm preparing to conduct an Oral History Interview with Marshall Kirk of Matewan in his apartment in the McCoy Building, its approximately 2:00 p.m.

By way of introduction, if you would just tell me your full name, when and where you were born, and something about your family?

Marshall Kirk: Well, I was born...my name is Marshall Kirk, I live at Red Jacket...I was born Slypole a little coal mining community that's no longer in existence on Brun Creek in Logan County, November 1920. I grew up all over Logan County from one coal camp to another uh...last of the which was Stirrat, West Virginia. I was living there whenever I graduated from Logan High School in 1938. About six weeks after graduating I came to live with my family at Red Jacket; that would be in the latter part of June 1938.

J: Was this with your mother and father?

MK: Yes. Huh...the reason I say that, in that context, my last year of high school I worked in the coal mines. I went to work in the coal mines at Stirrat, West Virginia Coal Corporation in the summer of 1937. And when school started that fall, a friend of mine and I got together we thought about the idea of trying to work on the second shift in the mines and completing our senior year of high school, which ultimately we did so. So I was still working in the mines and my family moved to Red Jacket, sometime in March of 1938. I bordered with one of the neighbors until I graduated from high school. I continued there until the end of June and the coal company shut...the mines shut down where I worked. So, I came...as a result...I came on to Red Jacket and joined my family over here and went to work with Red Jacket Stores, in uh...September of 1938. That came out to Virginia worked over there for six months came back to Red Jacket and went to work at Old Junior Mines at Red Jacket. I worked there for oh, I'd say worked at the mines for, about a year, maybe year and a half, I don't remember exactly. And one of the store managers wanted me to go to work at their Old Junior Store and I started working there. I worked there for maybe a couple of years and...

J: Who was the manager? Do you remember the name of the store manager?

MK: Ironically enough, the store manager was Mr. Kenneth Crockett; who later was postmaster at Matewan. He gave me the first job I had at Red Jacket. He was general acting, general store manager at the time and gave me the job and sent me to Keen Mountain. He sent for me to come to the mines to work at the stores which, at the time, was a better job than what I had at the mines. Because see, mines, at that particular time, was working' one sometimes two or three days a week. And the store job was the salary...a handsome salary...of $90.00 dollars a month.

J: Was it open everyday of the week?

MK: Six days a week.

J: Six days a week?

MK: Uh...uh...I worked that about two years. I got a little bit dissatisfied in the stores and I had a standing uh...invitation that the mines...from the superintendent...that anytime I felt like they weren't treating' me right I could just put my mini' clothes on and come on, which I did and went to work. He put me to work as soon as I showed up that day; but, I didn't ask him for a job previously. And I worked there until again uh... I worked at just about every job around the mines and the last job was operating coal cutting machine, under ground and work got bad again so, I went back to the stores and at that time why I worked the Mitchell Branch store, which was the largest store that they had; the building of which is still standing, its in a sad state repaired, but its still standing there at Red Jacket, across from the doctor's office. And I worked up to meat market manager there in that store until I went into the navy. Went there in WWII and I went into the navy, June 20th, West Virginia day in 1944. [I] served in the navy up until April the first, 1946. I came back to Red Jacket Stores.

J: Now, as uh...meat market manager, where did you all purchase your beef from, or your meat?

MK: Well, at that particular time, ours was one of the largest meat market in Southern West Virginia, and we purchased from all the major suppliers Armor, Swift, King, uh...Columbus Packing Company. Then, we purchased some from uh...a little Poker Market that used to be at Logan, and uh...various places. We had access to all the whole sale distributors we bought uh... we had fresh fish, oysters, things like this shipped in by N & W Railroad right straight from Chesapeake Bay area.

J: So, this was uh...this was like a full service store. Not like you buy from local people here and there?

MK: In those days, Johnny, a lot was said about the old coal company stores. The history...the resimation of company stores... back in the earlier days...of coal mining in these hills of West Virginia, that people didn't have the transportation to go to the larger cities, and the like, so the company put in their own stores, for their convenience of the employees and Red Jacket stores. If you needed any kind of furniture, furnishings, or whatever, any kind of clothing, uh...whatever, you could get it. Now in the earlier years, you paid up a little higher price for the merchandise. But in the later years, the years I'm talking about, when I worked there the coal company stores, were competitive with other markets and uh...such. As I, managing the meat market, I was in charge with buying, pricing, selling, cutting the meat, everything. I had full responsibility of the market, that included your potatoes. Sometimes where, as in today's market, everything is priced or the meat market manager, he doesn't have much say about what he sells something for, everything's priced for him by the manager, where in those days I was charged with that responsibility.

J: Were these stores, when you were working there, open to the general public as well as the Red Jacket employees?

MK: Anybody that had the money that paid for it now. The employees, they'd come in and buy and it'd be charged to their account and withheld over there payroll. And, to this degree, this was where, like the old Tennessee Ernie Ford song, "Sixteen Tons" uh...yeah, a lot of those people wound up deeply in debt to the company stores. But then, on the other hand, especially in the time that I can remember in the 30's, uh...during the depression years maybe the mines would work one day maybe sometimes go for a week or two an get one or two days work. But yet, the company would let uh... married people, they could get two or three dollars a day; which in those days would buy an awful lot of groceries. A single man, he could, maybe, get a dollar or something like that every other day. And in...during all this time, families still going in debt. But their eating, they may eat it, they needed this beef for getting the very bare necessities. They weren't living as the old saying is "very high on the hog", but they were living. By the time coal business would pick up uh...they would be so far in debt they could think...they never would get out. But, by the same token, the company considered just holding' every penny they made; they held a certain part of it. They would always draw a little bit of something to pay others. So, this is where that old saying comes in, you know, "another day older and deeper in debt" all this, that was true. But, nevertheless, Red Jacket Coal Corporation and uh...West Virginia Coal Corporation Junior Stores, they were very good about that. Which, I don't know what the people would have done had it not been for that. We didn't have the uh...shall we say, the welfare system that we have today. You see, back in those days, we didn't have that, but that is uh...just a nutshell history of that aspect of it.

J: Now, when you came back in '46 after the war did you go back you say you went back to the store?

MK: Yes, I went back to the stores, I didn't go back to the same stores, because uh...one of the meat market managers that had been working one of the other stores had been involved in an automobile accident, and still recuperating. They felt that he could be better served working in the shop that I left, so I went to one the other stores, but I was in the same status in uh... same pay and everything, that I had a previously, that I didn't have to take a cut in pay, but never the less I had the opportunity then back in late 1947, to go work for a another small company, uh...The ole Dayton Coal Company uh...as store office manager in my working with the stores like I also worked for awhile as in their payroll offices at Red Jacket as well and like high sight might bring this up, but during the time that I was working in the payroll offices, that was in oh...about '42 somewhere along there uh...they was somewhere in the neighborhood around 2700 hundred employees on the Red Jacket payroll at that time. Now that was a quiet an employer in these coal fields and another thing about it when bad times like times come in the coal business instead of them cutting off a whole gang of people just keeping' barely enough to work a few people everyday, they didn't cut anybody off everyday suffered together and had a little income along and had a job as the business picked up they already had a job they were still on the payroll.

JH: So they would cut everybody back but try not lay any body off or

MK: They didn't, did not lay people off due to slack business. If they got an order that would only last uh... two or three days they worked everybody until the orders came... and then we get another order. Why as in today times if they can get so much orders they'll cut everybody off and just keep enough production crew there to, work them fairly steady and keep continually going in there work time.

J: Now Red Jacket was more or less its own self contained community I guess?

MK: Oh, yes uh-huh...another thing uh...we get into the social structure shall we say a little bit in these coal communities. We had a pretty ridged uh... class structure in these coal fields all the officials, they were in a, they were in their own plain, shall we say higher plain, and had a tendency not to socialize or communicate with the common laboring peoples families so forth and so on about the only socialization you'd see would be where the kids all got together at the same school, but any other social status uh... we had a pretty rigid social structure and a lot of these coal companies wouldn't even permit their salaried employees or national employees to socialize with the laborers.

J: Is that right?

MK: Oh, yeah and some of the older people in the area that lived in the coal camps can remember those times uh... I can remember it very vividly, but I don't, I never did let that bother me any I liked the uses, the things that we hear so much about poverty and so forth today, and ? structure and sub-class of people and so forth in those days the people today have a lot more even though their on the social welfare system or receiving benefits for them, have a lot more than we did when growing up, but I guess since we were all in the same boat. We didn't have since enough to realize we were poor and we all got along, we got along great we didn't worry about locking' our doors leaving' something laying' out on the porch and leaving' our we didn't have cars, very few people were fortunate enough to own an automobile, but you didn't worry about somebody picking' something up and taking' off with it or break in' in on you, uh...we were like a big family.

J: Was there some kind of a system where the company provided transportation to and from work or were most people within walking distance where they had to go?

MK: Most of 'em were within walking distance now in uh...the early '40's a man by the name that used to be here in the town of Matewan. Uh...very prominent business man by the name of uh...Cliff Miller, C.C. Miller, he put in, he established a bus line now earlier on I will have to take exception earlier on. Uh...one of the old timers, by the name of Kirk Hatfield operated a little bus line going' back into the '30's on Mate Creek from Matewan up Mate Creek, and uh...when I first knew him I think he had about uh...maybe a 1937 Ford Station Wagon, and he'd haul people up and down Mate Creek, had a taxi service, bus service whatever you want to call it, but then later on why Mr. Miller came in maybe 39 or 40 somewhere along 'ere. and he established a bus line that went up Mate Creek and uh...he serviced Mate Creek. And uh...he'd operate buses in the early hours of the morning and the late hours at night to accommodate miners going to and from work on the different shifts and had a very good business, the old bus station lot it referred to here in town is where out here by the under pass is where the bus station was. And then Scott Nickel's people out of Williamson, they ran buses from Williamson up through Matewan passed through the same terminal and on up the river to Majestic. Uh...now that bus line operated until uh...I don't remember but I think it was up into the 50's to where everybody got through WWII. Everybody got to work, everybody able bodied was working and began to make pretty good money every body buying their own cars, they uh...got to the point where not many people were riding the buses so they finally just went out the bus business all together.

J: How about relations between blacks and whites in Red Jacket?

MK: There was now. There was a kind of a Shepard culture shall we say I don't that was bad designed as much as it was just by preference uh...the blacks had a tendency to associate among themselves. Uh...we had a few Hungarians at Red Jacket, we had a few Italians uh...Spanish, a few Spanish people, they feed in these coal fields back in the '20's when the coal fields were really opening up and they was plenty of work for the emigrant laborers, and they came into the coal fields. That became a very important segment of our society. Uh...but, most of these people had a tendency to kind of band together in their own little communities and there was a difference in that aspect one in riding the buses or going to the store or we had several schools up until after the uh...Civil Rights Act was passed in segregation was outlawed then they emerged the schools, but there wasn't very much about the merging of the schools, we had a college school at Red Jacket public school, no big fan fair or no animosities or anything like that you know, always hear a few voices with objection raised, but for the most part it went along just as smooth as could be so from that stand point we didn't have the problems like we had in our cities and other areas of our country.

J: In the late '40's and early '50's was Red Jacket still sponsoring baseball teams company teams?

MK: In fact uh...I never did play for the Red Jacket team per say but I played baseball in these coal fields play on the hills that was a big attraction on the weekends on Sundays especially when your home team was playing at home why you'd have the awfullest crowd of people out to a ball game you ever saw.

J: Tell me about that, where did you play and who were some of the players and what the crowds were like?

MK: You've ask me something there now, well now the Red Jacket, the Red Jacket baseball team, the official Red Jacket baseball team and most of the time we had two teams up there. I, the official Red Jacket team. Their playing field was were Creekwood Apartments are now across from the Red Jacket Grade School and like beaver he had to play back up on the hillside and the left beaver he had about a mile and a half there 'til he covered going' down on that railroad track, but we had some very, very, very good, very good semi-pro teams.

J: Was this the Red Jacket Giants, is that what they called?

MK: That was Red Jacket Indians.

J: The Indians okay.

MK: And uh...they uh...they could have played with just about any professional team. Then we uh...I played with uh..another Red Jacket team we used the diamond whenever the main team was somewhere else, but we went on in right above Junior Camp there. One time they had another baseball field up there between the road and the railroad and uh... had a team here in Matewan one time they had one at North Matewan, one at Varney. Uh...and after I went to work with Dayton Coal Company what we used to call New Howard where the high school is now see that all used to be a coal community up there that old bottom the company store and forty four houses down there. I was ????? ????? down there and then also uh...we had a baseball team there it was made up of players from down the river Merrimac back up this way you see, then back in those days the Rotary Club sponsored a Junior League that was before we was around ten or eleven years old on up to the middle teens. Uh...one time I was managing the manager player for our uh...we call it New Howard men's team and I was also coaching the Junior League team and I had uh...one of the boys that played uh...on my Junior League team he was the smallest guy in the whole bunch, but he was the hardest worker I had after I left there and come back to Red Jacket for the few years passed from the days there. Why he came in the company store up there one day I didn't know who he was, somebody told me, but he went on to become a major league pitcher pitching' for the Milwaukee Braves and was with them when they moved to Atlanta, he still lives in Atlanta by the name of Jack Smith pitching' and uh...Mr. Jess Runyon on on on who just recently died here at North Matewan. His daughter married Jack since divorce, but they left here and Jack would become a barber by a profession, he'd come in the off season he would come back here Landon Keesee's old barber shop down here and cut hair during the off season and uh...and another boy played in Junior League is manager of the Cleveland Indians at the present time, Doc Edwards.

J: Yeah, I was gonna ask you about him.

MK: Born at Red Jacket, his father was many years. And his father's brothers at one time, they had him in the coal field league at Varney. They had a team, complete team, they was nothing but Edward's. Played all positions. Uh...Some of the players in this area, if I could get my thinking cap on Phil Obituary was a very, very good catcher, as well as short stop, second base. Uh...fellows been dead a few years now but was always the manager of the Red Jacket Coal Company team who's a fellow by Alfred Peters, all of his teams were such people as Vern Mitchell, Garnet Mitchell, Bernard Miles, Frank Long; who still lives at Red Jacket. Uh...Carl Chafins, Ernie Chafin, Stewart Chafin, and Ernie still lives. He lives up ahead of Blackberry Creek now. Oh boy and the Junior League teams with Robbie Pope, State Police, well uh...all three of my boys played baseball in those days. So Dave, Mark, and Jim who is now co-owner of Belo Mining Supplies at Chattaroy. He's the only one of my children that I have left in this area. Uh...George Howe who is now a lawyer in Ashland.

J: What position did you played?

MK: Huh.

J: What position did you played?

MK: My whole playing' time was third base.

J: Third Base?

MK: Uh...getting back to the men's team, this kind of thing here and there's Weaver-Weaver and Rob Estep of Matewan, and I know I'm leaving' gangs of people out here because I can't think of their names right now, but uh...Hansel Akers, I think Hansel still lives across the tracks over here, uh...Hank we always called him. Dickie Yates, Billy Yates, like I said he lives across the river. Their brothers uh...uh...Dutch Hatfield still lives up Newtown, his brothers, Elliott and Teddy and uh...and another one I can't think of his name right now uh...there's Bruce Whitt and his brother from over at Varney, they played on the Varney team. Uh...that's a few I'm having a time you're taking' me back too far I don't remember a whole bunch.

J: But, you said pretty good crowds at these games?

MK: Oh, my goodness yeah, oh we had a big crowd in the later years, it just got to the point where not very much people, they could. They had advent television, they could pick up and so forth they had watched major league.

J: Did Red Jacket ever bring in Ringers for the summer give them a job and?

MK: Well, they oh, absolutely! especially a good pitcher or something like that, why they'd find them they won't pay for it, he might not have to do much, but he'd have a job I guess they did that quiet often that was a common practice among some of these larger coal companies that had with all to it, but then on the other team like Varney, the New Howard team, the North Matewan team, the Red Jacket, was all just local fellows and must say very, very good baseball talent I've watched some major league games that I could recall fellows that uh...played these coal fields that could play rings around some of the people outside playing' Major League Baseball.

J: Yeah.

MK: In fact I had an experience while I was in the navy. I was stationed in Navel Air Station Corpus Cristy Texas. Now they have on these military bases they have all kinds of recreational facilities and I in my case I had baseball, football, basketball, uh...tennis, uh..bowling whatever. I looked out one day early part of the year and saw some guys out throwing a baseball I I just..I went out and get a little exercise and I did, not realizing that anything more organize about it, I grabbed a glove, I went down to third base I hit the ball, it wasn't like playing in these coal fields, and around here you can play infield, you always have to be careful, the ball would hit the gravel or something hit you between the eyes. You have to have very good quick reflexes you get hurt. Down there you couldn't find a gravel if you had to. You got mad at somebody that throw a rock you better find one. So...need to say once I got feel the glove I was having myself a ball, uh...with my own rank you know, the ball came my way man I just went after it, all of sudden somebody yells out hey that's enough for now come on in, and he said well get you a bat get up there and hit a few well I did that was over he said get over in the infield, now I still wonder what in the world I got into, so I'm getting out of the way. He keep looking, you go here, you take this position, he look all around and finally he pointed at me, you take third base, so I went out had another ball and uh...I really enjoyed myself. When it was all over I pitch my glove in a pile they had there, went out on my own business. About a week or two days later somebody came in my filling station where I was working, yelled at my name, I answer, he said buddy we been trying to find you for a week, I said what have I done, he said, ah it's not that, it's you are our third baseman on our base team, I said I'm your what! he said yea, I said not me buddy, yep, you're our third baseman. I said there ain't no way, I'm sorry. I didn't uh...I didn't uh...go up there with the team, and hey I made just like that, had I went ahead and played I would have played with all major league ballplayers, Ted Williams, Bobby Dole, all that, that service ball, see Ted Williams lost 4 years of professional baseball, here he is being at main corp he play ball all the time in the corp, but his professional record that doesn't always speculated as what kind of record he had, had he went most prime time of life.

J: he lost four years WWII, two in Korea. How come you didn't want, didn't play?

MK: I had just received an assignment, uh...to that station as an instructor in one of their schools, that meant 24 months to probably 30, I was married at that time Johnny and I've lived in this apartment right next here uh...daughter that was six months, my oldest daughter uh...we have. I went in the service, uh...my youngest daughter was six months old before I ever saw here and uh...I felt that if I wasn't transported my rank and everything, the department I was in over the athletic department, which my luck at week or two months at times, I've been on one of those rocks out in the Pacific, I wasn't very anxious to go out there so I wouldn't take any chances, missing my family and so.

J: Uh...When did you get married?

MK: When?

J: Uh Hum

MK: August 31, 1940 married Eunice Meade. Her father one time later was uh...Glen Meade, one time the chief of police here in town.

J: okay. Okay, well, we got you up back to the store here in Red Jacket now did you stay with Red Jacket up until you became postmaster then.

MK: No. I ,as I uh...when we got away from Red Jacket there I left Red Jacket and went with the old Dayton Coal Company.

J: Oh. right, OK.

MK: Uh...at uh...Surosa, most people knew it as New Howard. But its where the, as I said a while ago, where the Matewan High School complex is now. The Company store and office and a community of houses there as well as the coal tipple cross the road, where uh... directly right where that coal tipple is now there. Uh...that Tall Timber, not Tall Timber but Cumberland Village has.

J: Uh-huh

MK: And I was there close to seven years. Then I uh... I left there, the company was folding, and uh...going under, and I came and bought out the old smoke house, I mean bought it on paper, didn't have the cash back then I bought it on paper. And bought the old Smoke House Restaurant/Pool Room. It use to be right here where Dave's got his flower shop. And, it did very well in that but, uh... it was taken usually seven days and nights a week between 6:30 and 7:00 in the morning till 12:30 and 1:00 the following morning and after eight months I sold it back to the fellow I bought from and uh...went back and uh...went back to work with Red Jacket store and I was working Red Jacket store till I went into the post office October the first 1955.

J: What was it like on the pool halls, Saturday Night in Matewan?

MK: Well, it was about uh... about the only thing that people had to do for recreation and uh... it could get a little harry sometimes on the Saturday night and laid up on Saturday night or something, somebody get a little, get a little to [sic] much to drink or something and want to start a racket but usually and very quickly contain but no, no great consequence uh... I know the time that I had, I didn't have any problems, at all uh...I had uh... whole especially on Saturdays I'd have uh...great crowd but back at the time the town of Matewan on Fridays and Saturdays particularly in the evening during the week Uh... Frank Allara had the theater here and , lets see on Tuesday night you have bank night, and on Thursday night is bingo night, and uh...people, these streets stayed full of people. You stop to think we had ,1,2,3 we had 3 pool rooms right here on mate street. Uh...we had in addition to that we had uh...1,2, uh...in addition to the three pool rooms we sold beer and sandwiches and stuff we had two other uh... beer taverns Matewan and the Rainbow Grill at the end of this street and then uh...had one through the underpass they use to refer to is as the Rocks Place and it use to be right through the underpass in an old two story building and just at the, crossing leading out of town up there Mert Ramey and Myrtle Ramey, Earlene Blankenship's uh... Grandmother owned and operated that place. I imagine that this ???????????????????? Earlene did in town ????????? school bus uh... she and her sister and their grandmother had this place of business up there in town. And they all made money or they wouldn't have been in business then you had, my gosh, shewww....had Hopes Dept. Store, Kirks Dept. Store, that was Louie Kirk that was in there and I know he was no relative of mine. They had Avis clothing store had Nenni's, Nenni's is the oldest still in business in town, then there was Schaeffer Brothers had the store in here. Knotty Pine Restaurant in the post office that was another restaurant in addition to what I've already, we had uh...where the uh...where the pizza shop is here used to be a grocery store, and then uh...where the furniture store is uh... Hatfield just put in used to be McCoy's Gas & Grocery. Uh... we had Coppers Hardware. We had uh... Matewan's Supermarket where Coal City Parts are now and Drug store right next door to it, drug store later moved down here Ibos's left town where the drug store moved in next to where the flower shop is now.

JH: Coppers hardware is that, is that Ira Copper.

MK: (yes)

JH: It is.

MK: And he built the building uh... down there where the Dollar Store is now and moved from where the Bank just renovated here on this block that is where Coppers Hardware used to be. But he built the building where the Dollar Store is now, moved his Hardware business down there and then after the flood started hitting him Terry Hope moved down next to the liquor store. Ended that up to here up to his death and then his son and wife operated up till they went out of business after the 77 flood wiped them out.

JH: How much did a bottle of beer cost in 1949 or 50?

MK: Quarter.

JH: Twenty-five cents? What kind of brand names did you carry?

MK: UH... All the major brands, Budweiser, Schlitz, Miller.

JH: Did you carry West Virginia beer?

MK: Yep, we had West Virginian beer and ale and West Virginian, some of it is even sold West Virginia exort ?.

JH: West Virginia export? How did you get a hold of that.

MK: Oh, well there was ways of getting it.

JH: Did you sell that in bottles to?

MK: Yeah, uh... West Virginia brewing uh...yeah West Virginian brewing company in Huntington

JH: OH, the brewery down in Huntington.

MK: Yeah, I mean it was regular for Ohio and states that had other than three, two beer, it was a little more potent but,

JH: So they called it West Virginia export.

MK: Yeah

JH: I thought you were talking about moon shine.

MK: NO! That was available too, But not in our business, although, no, not the moon wasn't available in any of our business's that Im aware of.

JH: You get that at private homes, private houses.

MK: Well if you needed it bad enough you could always find it, put it that way.

JH: Could you find it down town?

MK: You could, but I uh... in my life time, when I first came to this area, I just felt like I had come home because of the people, actually the Red Jacket, Matewan area when it comes to home known as home, the real home that I've ever had as far as the people are concerned. I did well to go to the same school two years in a row in my early years, in one coal camp to another and one into Logan county. But I've been right in this area, Well Thunder, for fifty one years now

JH: Now when you uh... when you started over at the post office that would be a political appointment or patronage job or what ever, how did you get that?

MK: At the particular time, now Im one of the next, Im down there one of the last of the political appointees as such. Uh... but I don't, I don't say that to uh... without prefacing that they had held examination, civil service examinations four times previous to the time I took it and no body passed the examination there was an acting post master in place at the time and then finally I decided after President Eisenhower was elected and I learned something about how these appointments went uh...the appointment 99 times out of a 100 went to the political party who was in power in the administration not in the congress but in the administration but in the senate. Once the recommendation is made for someone to be appointed by the presidents office then the senate had to approve that appointment. Well, in my case, I uh... when I took the test there was eleven of us applied for it and five out of the eleven passed the thing. But I scored the highest on the test. And I went to uh... I uh... I went, when I, once I scored, and I was notified that I was number one and that the office was mine, I asked the whole first refusal and let an old gentlemen continue for a while that was the acting post master. Because he had built a home on Pigeon Creek and he was too old, he was, he was too old to old at that particular time to qualify to take the civil service test he was past seventy which that doesn't, that law is not in effect now but it was at time. And I let him continue for eighteen months. Then uh... I decided I had better get myself in that job while I can. And I uh... they sent my name to the senate and it kept hanging far after six months and I got kind of concerned. I went to the state post master and I got ?????? in the post master's organization right away and so I was at the state post masters convention and probably one of our national representatives of our organization about, I hadn't heard any thing. He said I have to go back to visit Media Pennsylvania. So he said I've got to go back through Washington I'll check and find out. So he called said he ??????? picked up the approval slips out of there boxes and they'll leave them lay there a year, two there years or a week. And I wrote to uh...one of the senators. He was from, he had been appointed for Senator Killgore had died and he had been appointed to fill in for the term of senator Killgore. And I uh... I wrote to him and explained that I met all the uh... had met all the requirements of the civil service act, Veterans preference act, etc., etc., etc.. And I asked him if he uh... Bill Allara, third, that was his name and asked if he would check and find out what the hold up was on my confirmation. And in about ten days I got a letter from him, I got the letter on Thursday, and he had written it on Tuesday from Washington and informed me that I had that day confirmed. And that's the way I got it, but uh... with the advent of the postal organization back in seventy-three, why, that was all done away with. Now the post masters are selected within the ranks of the postal service uh... they are advertised through the in house communication ordinance and those interested in meeting of course certain qualifications they have to meet but who feel that they met the qualifications kind of fly and they go through a process of screening, interviews and stuff, uh... generally speaking that you get promoted from a smaller post office to a larger or to a post master or supervisor to the post master. This is all how this all worked today. I think uh... it is better it keeps your congressmen and your senators uh... from a situation like it use to be to maybe a half a dozen people, within Matewan, were aspiring to be post master. Well the congressman or the senator they hoped would recommends one out of that half dozen, that made five other people mad. They don't wont to do that, they don't like to make people mad. And so as a result this was uh... something that took a load off there back. At that aspect, and by the same token there's more, creates more of an incentive within the postal service for people who aspire, for those who wish to have a better job. I had opportunities while I was post master to move up to other jobs but uh... I enjoyed what I was doing as a post master because I knew that I was providing a good service to the people, not only in Red Jacket but in the area because of the years being post master the post office grew even though the town of Red Jacket itself was declining. And I, I had uh... benefit of the business of people all the way from Beach Creek, even some on Ben Creek would come by and stop at the post office. But I in addition to being the post master and doing postal business I was always helpful at giving advice on social security uh... a whole mired of things of problems. Why I, I made a good listener and a lot of times I could guide them in the direction to where they could get the ample information they needed. Sometimes I was able to provide that information.

JH: Were you ever responsible for delivering mail?

MK: You mean like route delivery?

JH: Yeah.

MK: No, mine was all done right within the compound.

JH: All done right within the post office. Now, now you were a republican and a democratic county, did any body ever try to get that job from you? Concerning the post master

MK: Well uh... now, a funny thing, I mean uh... now uh... you know Im not going to delve in uh... in names or any thing like that, I can, I can call of instances, but there was one election and this was, this was in a, after the postal organization, I don't know whether it was or not, no it might not have been but any how but he one or the other. We had a primary ?????? right here in the county and uh... and you know there out here beating the bushes and trying to round up every body for each side it was and uh... this particular lady very good friend of mine an old square dancing friend from way back in before my wife and I use take them square dancing we had where we could get close to one to several other people such as Tom Chafin, former sheriff, his wife, Uh... Truman father.

J.: He used to call square dancing.

MK: OH my God he was good, he use to call, I use to play music for him to.

J.: Oh, is that right!

MK: Yeah

J.: Playing fiddle?

MK: I had a band and I played any instruments we had, we, we had it worked out that we could rest, whose ever turn it was to take a break we could fill in for him, but he... any how, this, this lady came in and she was a very good friend and she said Marshall I wonder if you could do me a favor? I said "what that?" said "Well I've been promised that after this elections over that I could have the post masters job here in Red Jacket I was wondering if you would be kind enough to show me the ropes?" I said Oh that's interesting now" she said "There's one or two things that I would like to find out first though I said I have to particular about this, is government this is all privilidged information, some of it. Uh... there is certain bounds in which I cant go beyond but uh... Im curious about one thing, whose is going to bring charges against me?" she said "What!""I said whose going to bring charges for the removal against me?""Well what do you mean?" I said "Well before I can be moved out of this office someone has to bring charges of removal against me. Then they got to sit down across a table and prove those charges." "Oh MY God have mercy, you know I wouldn't go near to no such stuff as that?" I said "but that's the way it goes." "Well I though when ever it changed from one side to the other you know" I said "Wait a minute now lets look around us a minute here, this time why Wallace Vary was post master at Williamson uh... Don Crum, post master of Delbarton, Juanita Collins was post master of North Matewan, Clare Overstreet was post master here at Matewan uh... Grady Hamilton ??????. I said "Now I've named over these people" I said "YOU know what there politics are?" she said "oh yeah ever one of them are good ole democrats," I said " True." but I said they been serving as postmen all during this republican administrations haven't they?" ERASED FROM HERE " Well yeah, that's how come nobody cant get out, Lord I haven't even thought of it, that living so & so, I do know he's promised this same job to another women too. But that's just a little anactdote that actually happened.

J.: He just wanted to promise her something to get her out of the office

MK: (LAUGHING), they were wanting her vote, and the family's vote.

J.: Politics in Mingo county has uh... how would you describe it? Colorful reputation?

MK: Very colorful history and this includes both parties John, doesn't just include the democrat, it includes both parties because up until the middle thirties it was strongly republican and controlled by the so called Greenway Hatfield. People blame the coal companies. Now the coal companies had a big hand in the part of the politics in those days and that is before

ERASED TO HERE.

just antigenic to Mingo county through out the whole southern section of the state. UH... during the mine wars there were democrat Don Chafin in Logan county I mean he ruled Logan county, I mean he ruled it now I could remember I went to school with his youngest, I went to high school with his youngest son, seams I uh... went to high school with uh... a lot of Devil Anse's grandchildren, I knew well I knew Tennessee, Devil Anses's son personally knew Tenness, Joe and ?????? uh... Cap, uh... My father served one time as a deputy sherrif under Joe when he was elected sherrif of Martin county back in uh... twenty-nine thirty along there. Uh...and I knew all those people and went to Junior High and High School with them and uh... the coal companies at that time tied in with Joe, Tenness. After Don uh... after Don was beat why uh... it went just like Greenway was over here, with the uh... they appoint a deputy in Red Jacket the coal company would pay the deputy enough to keep him cold, though he didn't have that much to do uh... but so for me to sit her and say one was worse than the other I cant do that.

J.: Now was uh... Joe and Tenness Hatfield sons Cap Hatfield.

MK: Joe and Tenness were sons of Devil Anse Hatfield.

J.: They were sons of Devil Anse.

MK: OH yeah.

J.: And they later became Sherrif [sic] in Logan County?

MK: Yeah, yeah

J.: And they were dependent at least on part of the Coal companies for there pollical base then.

MK: Oh well yeah in those days before the union came in there's always a foreman or superintendent on election day. You know you going to get paid so you just don't come out to work and that's hard to believe right now and a lot a people probably would give you an argument. But some of the people that are still around such as I, in my age, see being born in 1920, why I was a pretty good size lad during the great depression and through those ladder days of the uh... strong, republican strong holds in these towns and the advent of the democratic strong holds in this town and I can remember all that. I can remember some of how it was under the older and as well as how it was handled, well Hatfields ruled McDowell county in the same time frame Im talking about. So its not just, its not just Solly to Mingo county it hit all of them. After the aftermath of the Masacare out here, you see how they got back at Sid and ED that's where it happened. Ours just got more notoriety than the others did. Logan got there in uh... a little before Matewan did and Blair Mountain and places like that.

J.: How did the uh... you would have been post master when Island Creek bought out Red Jacket. How did life change?

MK: I went in as post master in October, October the first 1955, January the first 1956 is when Island Creek assumed fascicle control of all of Red Jacket operations and uh... the uh... transition was really something to see because uh... and here again I, I, people that were around and really know, there was a complete turn around and the attitude of the union after Island creek took over and Red Jacket was almost, they could hardly do any thing without union, local union committee men or somebody OK'ing it through what they uh... during World War II they worked out an addition to the contract mutual agreements on a local level and uh... Island Creek took over everybody on the payroll got a letter from Island Creek six weeks or so before they took over after the deal had already been consummated, after the as I said every employee Red Jacket employee got a letter from Island Creek a month and a half or so before uh... Island Creek actually took control outlining what the situation was they would not honor any mutual agreements anything accept the contract and they made it stick and it was an all together different thing uh... when Island Creek took over as of what it was at Red Jacket and it wasn't to long after Island Creek took over they started closing mines.

J.: The company did.

MK: Island Creek coal company did they closed uh... they closed # five mine, they closed Mitchell Branck mine top and bottom seem they closed 32 mines top and bottom uh... they closed Tudor mine top and bottom. I think they left 17 mine well as I remember now it could be they left Junior and closed 17 but I think they closed Junior and left 17. They went for a short time but then they closed every thing, every thing in the hollow was closed down for about six months then when they started back up they started, they only started seventeen hundred.

J.: How did the union react to these shutdowns?

MK: Well they didn't like it to much but there wasn't a whole lot they could do about it. That was managements perogotive.

J.: A business decision.

MK: And they never did reopen all of these other mines.

J.: Were they doing much strip mining at that point, Island Creek?

MK: No, Red Jacket had done some contour striping, they hadn't done any mountain top removal they did some contour striping and angering. Most of, well all of that type of work was done in Mitchell Branch, in the head of Mitchell Branch and uh... they done some of it down on the bottom seem they come around back to the old main office and part way down toward what we call, almost down to what we call Italy Camp in Red Jacket now that's the little community across the creek just before you get up to the intersection where you go across the mountain. They did contour stripping and angering but no mountain top removal.

J.: Would that explained to any degree why they would shut there mines. Shut down one mine and take up stripping some where else

MK: Well, the mines had been pretty well, the mines had been pretty well worked had been driven up to there ?????? communities and so forth and then uh... ????? and so forth, pretty well worked out. Its high cost of standard point of transportation. Ford equipment, I guess it wasn't pretty to any in kind of any inside information ????? But on the basis of knowlegde of where the mines were operated they were farely high cost operations. Know the Junior mine, there, there attitues as far as the Junior mine was concerned was in fact that they could reach most of the coal all they had left from 17 mine coal. Last work I did in the coal mines was in old Junior, which later became a part of 17 mine uh... so when they picked one they were going to operate, 17 mine which cut out a lot of transportation costs because they could go right straight in there and through the mountain and mine through under Pigeon Creek, which they did and on in and towards Rock House Fork at Pigeon Creek through the mountain over there crossed under US 52 so on and over there, one time it all caved in on them right there in the creek bed over there and part of the road way caved in and they had to make aragments for going in the area with gigantic pumps, pump water oh I've forgot how many tons of concrete, pour in there and get it all sealed off and get the road bed restabalized and every thing.

J.: When did that happen?

MK: Oh boy that happened..... some where give or take a couple of years I think about 1960.

J.: Did Island Creek continue to operate stores or did.

MK: They closed all the stores except the Mitchell Branch store, that was the main big store and they, fact they operated every it a little while after they shut 17 mine down but I don't remember what year they closed the store completely.

MK: Now when did you get involved with the rotary in Matewan?

MK: 1948 or 49 while I was with Payton coal company and I was, I had perfect attendance for eighteen years.

J.: Meeting once a week.

MK: Every Thursday. If I missed a meeting I made it up at the other meeting somewhere. A lot of times I be at a post masters conference, I would find out when rotary meet in that community near by comminute I go attend rotary make a missed attendance there. And served six years as secretary and treasurer. I was secretary of the rotary when we organized and put on first Magnolia Fair, first secretary and treasurer of the fair board. I help get the Magnolia Fair of to a good start and I imagine someone else is giving you a history of the Magnolia Fair but the idea was ?????? by, I've forgotten the pastors name of the Baptists Church at that time but he and a business man used to be in town here used to have a dry cleaning shop right down here named L.O. Stewart and Frank Allara ??????? or what ever you wanted to call them and its first in visioned as about a two or three street coroner deal and we got to working at it in earnest and trying to make a plan best job we ever, we already had a, time we got to trying to solidify plans we had enough going make a week long thing out of it and moved it up to the old football field and the proceeds from that went to acquire addition land up there. Some of the funds went to build the swimming pool from the proceeds of the magnolia fair. A lot of the improvements made in town or the area was done through and upon the proceeds of the Magnolia fair.

J.: So has that fair been carried on every year since then?

MK: Every year, been some pretty rough times uh... at sometimes, man I had tent blow down on me one time in a big thunder storm and of course for a period of time your going to run into that you'll have your good and your bad and they moved it down here after we got us a good level built out here on the river bank here extends about, oh I don't know, about a hundred yards almost from where it used to be the river bank used to be over out where the front door of city hall is and that way every time it after it started flooding in 1955 when they go to clean it up they just take it a dump it on the river bank just kept dumping it on the river bank. The river is about half widened now as it used to be right out, straight out here. That's when reason said it wouldn't take to much water now to flood it. Joked to me????? right there at the bend on the river. But now its made a good base for the level that there planing to build, dike or flood wall.

J.: Do you feel like going under the process of the Tolsa Highway again right now or do you want to do that at another interview?

MK: Well that's up to you John.

J.: Well if you feel like it.

MK: I'll be here tomorrow afternoon if you want to come back and do another cession.

J.: Let me shut this off for a second.

J.: Today is Tuesday June 27, 1989 Im in the office of Marshall Kirk continuing the interview that we began yesterday.

MK: Well John we talked earlier about the Red Jacket and various, several things and so we'll get into a few of the projects and so forth that have been attempted some not so successful some very successful and so forth and mostly what I'll be talking about here are ones that I have, which I've been directly involved and I suppose I would start with the one of the earliest projects several years back I don't remember the, the date the project was completed but actually I think this was in 1955 I was member of the Matewan rotary club and chairmen of community improvement committee or community services I forget exactly the name of the committee of the club and we had been talking many years here in the area about the old route 49 that used to leave Matewan heading towards Williamson some of the people my age and some of them who are actually younger can still remember the old, parts of it are still down in the lower end of town, very crooked, very narrow and so forth it had been tried for over a period of time to get the road relocated down through Hatfeild bottom but to very little success there was a couple of people who owned property in the area and they never could agree to just which road down through there to take and every time any efforts were forth coming, and try to get something done that was the only stumbling block was getting these two people to agree on the, how it should happen and so I took this as a project of my community in the rotary club and uh... I had a couple of the members of the town, one was a member of the town council and the other was the sheriff and so on was on my committee.

J.: Who was the sheriff at that time?

MK: Uh... I believe it was Ira Cooper but any how the members of the committee I just don't like to get into names if I can possible help it because I don't want to create any animosity among the people in the community other than uh... what I want to do is try to be among the board people be as positive possitive aspects than the things that have come about but uh... they, the members of my committee kept telling me Im just wasting my time on that project and find something else. But I felt that there was some way or another in Mingo county that we could funds so another member of the club volunteered to help and simply all I did was what I wanted to do was to go to the, directly to the two individuals and talk with them about an idea that I had which was that he would get the state road commixtion, called at that time, have there engineers come in and survey the whole situation and make a recommendation as the most feasible route they should take. Well this is where I was being told that I just wasted my time and never get it together so another member of the rotary club went with me. We talked to each individual separtly and I laid my proposal without any argument at all, I mean none what ever! When I laid my proposal up to bring in the road commission engineers and let them suggest. They agreed instantly.

J.: Both parties?

MK: Both parties. Never a word about apposition from either one of them.

J.: Why do suppose the commission felt the other would happen?

MK: Well uh... it wasn't the commission it was the people here in town that were wanting it done and I don't know what happened I never did ask but Im presuming it was more or less the way it was brought about to these two individuals uh... both of them were pretty big political figures in the county on opposite sides of the political fence from each other, one republica and one democrats and uh... sad to say just about anything that happened up or down somewhere politics was involved. We left that aside the man that left with was with one political party and I was in the other but we were in on accord and we approached them on strictly a nonpartisan based ??????? and uh... not to long after that why I, I mean shortly after that I contacted the road commission office and they sent there engineers in and got signed agreements from the people and they weren't going along with it and as a result the road is there and has been for many years now since the middle fifties and has boom to the town in that aspect uh... that is one project that is uh... accomplished in the last, I have to think about that Im talking something like thirty-five forty years ago.

J.: Now was the road actually built by the state then?

MK: Well uh... it, the state paid for it they hired like they do in most of there highways construction like they contracted it out it begun by the state road commission crews but it was a very very slow and diconsilateing uh... situation to most of us people here in the area because fact cause the main crossing here in town heading down the river, many months there was nothing but a mud hole that you could hardly get your automobile, trucks and stuff through it. But after a while, why then the state road commission let it to contract and things went smothley and it too very long until the job was completed and prior to that program down through there well there wasn't but three or four homes down in that whole area and anyone drive down there now would never dreamed of ???????? the road was built and all the homes and so forth that are in that area it was just a very few part of the town of Matewan that is one project that, another project uh... I think we discussed the Magnolia Fair some yesterday that was another project that the entire rotary club was responsible for but then we get into,

J.: This one you just described was the Tulsa Highway.

MK: No this one here, no this is the,

J.: OH that's not the Tulsa Highway.

MK: No that's the road down through Hatfield bottom and uh... in all these projects Johnny, unless I forget most all the improvements here in the Town of Matewan, Im not saying all, but most all improvements in the area has been brought about by the rotary club here in the town of Matewan it has been very active and stays very active in community ?????? Now in another time as chairmen of the same committee uh... I came up with an idea, the area had gotten into a place where work was bad, turned a little sour and we were wondering of ways in fact as we are doing such as today attracting other industries, businesses, so forth in to the area and as it is today we were still standing by adequate commercial transportation and we were searching for all kinds of ways of possible leaving town. In the same committee of the Rotary club, so I got to looking, the whole state was looking at a system for transportation, highway transportation and uh... during Governor Underwood Administration he had come up with what he called a Backbone Feeder System of Highways for the entire state and then some little time later they formed the Appalachian region commission and they started talking about the changing of the Backbone Feeder System and change it to a corridor system, highway system, corridor G, Corridor L, and so forth throughout the state. Picked up basically the same format that was devised in Governor Underwoods administration and I got to looking at this and I said well were still down here in the southern tip of West Virginia, everything being channeled in through Huntington, Charleston, Beckly, Bluefeild and leaving the southern coalfields out. And I came up with an idea that we should have a highway of sufficient stature to support industrial and commercial traffic coming out of the CK area state on the Ohio river US 52 and proposed interstate 64 coming across the souther part of the state up the Big Sandy and Tug River valleys up route 49 going up Tug River and tying into Agar in 52, US 52 at Agar. All for the purpose of opening up this entire area not only just the coal mining and just the railroad but highway that would give us the advantage of commercial travel, tourist acetract, attractions, we were even, we were even talking tourism back then and along about the time we were talking about a play on the uh... like that's over at Beckly now, on the Hatfield-McCoys uh... the, the uh... Doctor that wrote that, he came to Matewan Rotary first, we were pushing for that same thing here but at that particular time some of the families didn't, didn't look to kindly on it, it was wrote and later picked up, been a very successful, had very successfully runs over in Beckly area.

J.: So originally all were talking about get head to that play.

MK: We were even talking about building an ampatheater up where the old football field is,

J.: So there were some local sensitivities.

MK: Well there were some, a few, not all but a few members of the family, they didn't look to kindly ??????? At that particular time as I understand it ??????? and it was later picked up. But I came up with the idea of this highway to help the area and I talked it over with uh... at that particular time, my committee members was a Jerry Hope Sr, and Herbert or Herb Cline, the two members of my committee. We talked it over and batted around, back and forth amongst ourselves for a while and then we decided to, we ought to try it so we took before the club as a whole and they approved it so in turn took it to the Tug Valley Chamber of Commerce to get them to help us with it and sell them on the idea and at that time (?? Frank Sutriss??) was the Managing director of the Chamber and ????? the whole idea to him why he just jumped on it right quick I mean he became the most ????? boost to the entire project he just took the whole thing and went to work on it and we traveled back and forth to the CK Chamber of Commerce, the Welch Chamber of Commerce, Bluefield, Princeton Chamber to get them all behind, all the way the whole route, so to say, and I know at one of the meetings down at CK with the committee of the CK Chamber of Commerce one of whom was Joe Hanner who used to be the president and owner of Hanner Lumber Company in Kenova who had to be in the, while we were discussing the merits and so forth we didn't find very many ????? merits. Why Mr Hanner was sitting over there with a doodling pad, pen, pencil, or something and he came up with the idea talking about what was involved was the tug and the Levisy, Ohio and the Big Sandy rivers and he arranged it all around, and he said the Tug, Levisy, the Ohio, and Big Sandy improved under the association thus the name Tulsa initials of the whole name and this is where the name, we uh... kept after it for when ever Mr Sutriss thought a meeting was desired or required we went, we traveled quit a few a miles for meetings for motorists????? and we began to get some attention from the state level and along the way why they were talking about a bridge across the Ohio into Huntington parallel into the Sixth street bridge. I had to see in the Herald dispatch paper I got, if they get that bridge across there they'll drop our project so I called Joe Hanner and told him about this thing, I said know Joe this is the best way in the world to see how committed they are to our highway up the big sandy river. And you and some of your people be sure to be there in Huniton at that meeting with the road commission ?????? and make pitch we need that bridge down in your peoples neck of the woods down around Credo and Kenova. He said your right and he went up and, the proof's in the pudding, the bridge was put in at west seventeenth street in west Huntington and this was all a part of the Tulsa project and when acyl, when actual construction began why uh... we began to feel pretty good about it Terry Hope, Herb, Herb and I, Frank Sutris did a lot of traveling but when Frank Sutris took the job as administrative assistant to congressmen Jim Keith it seemed like the interest in the total project waned some where they forgot, all the time talking about Tolisa into Williamson and for years there's nothing been said about the total project for Tulsa coming in on through the Matewan reversing 49 to, up the, it would open up the whole area back through oh, say back on beyond Edgerton or Deform as we know it, towards Eager up by the Panther state forest and so forth it would open up that whole area up, the more, a lot more development which is one of the reasons for it, and would open up the area or two areas which were trying to promote now and still do that but uh... that's basically in a nut shell form the history of the Tulsa project but it was a project out of the Matewan Rotary club and a part of it is a reality now and I don't know when we'll see any more done to it certainly cut a lot of time when driving from here to the Ohio river valley.

J.: Is this a plan that's discussed at all at the rotary now or?

MK: I don't know if its even discussed in your peoples councils here in town. I don't think its even been discussed in the Chamber, Chamber of Commerce, Tug Valley Chamber of Commerce but Im sure its in there old files down there. That there is a complete on the Tulsa project even some maps for proposed routing so this is uh... these are just some of the more, I think, significant projects that occurred here in town and I don't know how much I would, has already been covered and to what extent but certainly I think its worth mentioning that there has been a least one, the women club, the Matewan Women Club here has been very helpful and very active in the notion of the Magnolia fair and helping to put it on and of course they share in the proceeds that are made there to there projects and ????? I don't want to infer that the rotary club was this old opponent of the Magnolia fair because the Women club has been a very ?????? part in the planing and in the actual conduct of the fair.

J.: You uh... express some interesting observations yesterday about why roads are getting built in some places and they don't get built in other places.

MK: (LAUGHING)

J.: Could you outline that for me? You don't have to name any names.

MK: Well no, as I was saying uh... when you get to public works projects the local, the local government doesn't help with money necessary by the very nature of these projects they run into money and the local governments doesn't have that kind of money and you have to have more help and then when you get into that in spite of your best efforts there has to be a certain type of political uh... active its to gain that through the governors office or the highway department or what ever and the political uh... in any instances being part of this. A certain amount of the people you deal with are elected people, you deal more with bureaucratese but the actual decision making is most of the time people who are elected which in our form of government there is nothing wrong with it. But then when you get into a situation like the state of West Virgina that's been for many years, the southern coal counties since we were talking earlier, the southern coal counties have been very prodominatly, overwhelmingly predominate, registered into the democratic party and democratic party controlled. I mean that as, I mean that as no slur or anything like that its just a fact of the coal situation. Well all the people running for these powerful offices, in the state, would be the controlling offices such as governor, US Senator or congressmen or what have you. When they were up for reelection, when they went for the voters they had to vote to some accomplishments during there term of office. They, some way or the other, directly or indirectly, had a hand in it, that they gotten done. Well they didn't have to do that in so very much in these southern coal counties because the biggest problem they had was getting through the primary and they determined the election, that part of it, all most enough votes and most generally to elect them ???????????????????????????. Because when you had the Kenoa river and got out side cable county going north now in that part of the state from one election to the other they hardly ever knew exactly how it was going to turn out. And generally when these roads were built and these other projects accomplished they were accomplished in the northern part of the state and principally in north ????? and uh... it was very hard to get uh... any politician of any significance down in this part of the state and to a degree, still is. But this is one the things we've always had to encounter they could pitch some little project that wouldn't amount to a whole lot of any thing but they would make a big to-do in the, in the, they would hand out, a big, great story for the daily new here in Williamson of what so and so had gotten for Mingo county. They might have turned out a, turned lose a few deer or, or some thing like that or uh...One built Lallerl Lake over here on, on Lallerl creek up towards Lenore, big to-do, it was nice keep the local people together but nothing that would draw the type of stuff were talking, something that would provide livelihoods for more people in a diversified economy and tradition, Im still with the opinion and uh... everybody else is that we still have to have some transport around here. Good highway transportation. There are some aspects of it that you that you will always, if you built a real good highway one that would support the transportation as coal is now, coal and so forth. You get the railroads in opposition see and swing pretty good clout but that's all part of the game to be played. As I see the future why the flood protection here for the town of Matewan improved now, Im very happy see uh... some what better traffic pattern system in and out of the town here uh... but that traffic pattern of that same magnitude needs to expand from here towards Bluefield and from here towards Charleston and, and particular towards Huntington. To get in and out of here and get people in the area both from the tourists stand point as well as industry and business cause we are a captive people whether we like or not we are a captive people down through all the generations up to the present time of coal industry, we sink or swim, from coal.

J.: What impact has the uh... has the coal industry had you think on determining the nature of local politics? Or in the so called coal counties that you mentioned?

MK: Well since the, since the advent of uh... the united mine workers being able to organize in these counties since the early thirties, why the coal interest to a degree uh... they do it, still exert by being able to donate some of money to particular candies who have made, maybe, some commitments or promises or so forth uh... other than that they haven't been able to exert the, the bare knuckle, thumb, thumb twisting grind control over the individual employees that we once had but we had the involvement of the uh... ????? that we go and there was, I can remember a time and I don't think that very much of any of it goes on today use to through out the county people in small businesses and particularly the people who were in something like, beer taverns and things of this nature and school teachers that , before school. Keep harsement down against there business contribute so month to the party, party treasurer and teachers were uh... were expected to things like that.

J.: Is that what referred to as the flower fund?

MK: Flower funds or what ever you want to call them.

J.: Now what nature would, would that kind of pressure take in, in some body running a tavern, for licensing purposes and things like that.

MK: Well yeah, they, they would uh... any tavern they, some, some people will go in there and even though by law actually by West Virginia state law you, you, cant get drunk on bear, if you can prove it and drink nothing but beer under technical aspects of the law they cant convict you of being drunk because its non intoxicating.

J.: Because its three two?

MK: Three two beer, non intoxicating beer. The nonintoxication beer in West Virginia. Now Iv never seen ??????? but as I understand it, if you can prove you've nothing but beer legal proof, beer not suppose to be intoxicating. But that's something to think about.

J.: Yeah! (Laughing) it might not be technically intoxicating

MK: Well that's what Im talking about.

J.: The idea of flood control along with transport course that all ties in to the social landscape. What been the nature of flood control particuly in Matewan in your experience.

MK: Well when you say Matewan, when you say Matewan were talking about the entire Tug Valley, Williamson, Matewan areas and for some reason or the other it never, there has been a whole lot said and I don't understand why. Like Kermit they usually suffer along with the rest of us. But it never been that, that much uh... in the whole skim of things said about Kermit area but I don't, I don't understand but my prime concern was always Matewan and wanted to make sure if anything was done as far as I was concerned that Matewan was included in the ball park to have something done. Cause this town has been almost completely destroyed. I can take you out here and show you where there has been all kinds of homes that are not there, right here in, on, in right in Matewan property here. Above this underpass there used to be all kinds of homes. ?????? right up here above this ????? gasoline tank ?????? there was one little section there. Two rows of homes, little bungalow type homes uh... I don't remember how, about twelve or thirteen homes there and a big two storey home and a little home or two and a grocery store and some of the two storey homes that sit back way right there before turn towards Thacker the old Benny Aky home, he used to have a, for many years, the seventy-seven flood finally flood his store building down Mate Street and parked down in the middle of Mate street down towards the underpass.

J.: Who was that now?

MK: Benny Accica, Achy to most people, A.C.C.I.C.A he died just a few months back. but uh... he was in business ??????? 1929 to 1976 but it finally just washed his building and all down Mate street. But on the other side there were some nice homes on the other side of the street where Maynards drive in, carry out or what ever, just above the underpass here. There used to be a the a ?????? Chevrolet agency was just beyond the underpass. The ????? Chevrolet agency. Mr Epling bought into and became?????? and later moved on up to where the present location was uh... still, they were some nice homes, brick homes.

J.: Those were all destroyed in 77.

MK: Well uh... that completed the destruction now in, see we started flooding first floods we had were in 55, 1955 it got up in the underpass twice in ten days and 57 we had pretty rough, it got up higher. In 63 is the first time the flood waters run continuously down Mate street here in Matewan. Then 77 uh... about everybody knows 77 flood cause I was assigned the task of digging the Matewan post office of the mud and muck. In the 77 flood the post master was on sick leave.

J.: Was that post office in the location that the one now is?

MK: No, no that one that is located there now is an aftermath of the 77 flood it was across the street which occupied to the bank right on the corner with the red brick. Where part of the banks offices are.

J.: OK.

MK: That was the post office building.

J.: It was on this, on the side next to the railroad tracks.

MK: Originally, originally it was back there and then after the bank built the new building here they moved the post office to the front here and then for several years just ??????? but the water was fourteen feet deep in that post office in the 77 flood and in this office in which were sitting now uh... water only lacked about two, two and a half feet from being up to this level.

J.: Up to the second floor.

MK: Yeah, here in the McCoy Building.

J.: Did strip mining play a role in the flooding.

MK: Well there are some schools that thought along that line, what parts strip mining had played uh... is hard to gauge I, I couldn't say that it, it caused a big part of this. Most of our flooding uh... from all indications comes from south West Virgia down through, Docks Creek, what they call lower Docks creek, and uh... talking with one or two railroad men that worked the, that whole part of the railroad signalmen and I think its the weghtwen, the day of that flood that coming down, coming the river the water started getting over the rail, over top of the railroad just about a half or a quarter of mile above the mouth of docks creek backing up the main Tug river ???? as it came charging up and most ever time most of our flooding, now some of it come out of dry fork it comes through Eager uh... we had a lot of it there, we always watched what Eager was going to do, locally, and see if its still raising at the mouth of dry fork and most our water, and that's the reason my ??????? thought we could build a dam and dam up lower docks creek for flood control purposes we control the flooding on down the river. There was quit a strong aguement on that uh... and also as a George Micheall, the local printer, he drew, he come up and did a very detailed study of cut through where we'd short circuit Tug River up Auberon hollow back in the main Tug river near Williamson and cut out this big bend of the river where the river meats so much resistance in times of high water and that was frowned upon by the corp of engineers as not cost effective enough and then we come back with a cut through just back of the radio station. They were looking for ?????? but uh... then this proposal in 1963 ...I believe it was later in 1963 when Glen Taylor was Mayor of the town uh... Congressmen Jim Key and Carl Perkins was holding hearings, subcommittee hearings, in the house office, s I see . And in later years, in just recent years the House of Representatives Chambers in Washington and the delegation from here was going up in relative to the flooding in Tug Valley. And since Kentucky and West Virginia both in hopes of Congressman district was so effective now they were holding hearings and I was designed NY the mayor as a representative for the town of Matewan. Before those hearings, and I suggested at that time, uh...my suggestion was uh...an earth fill dike or flood wall whatever they wanted to call it, but it be a dike of such nature going along from the upper side of the mouth of Mate Creek down the river bank to the lower end of town where forty-nine relocating coming on top of that both ends of town eliminating the railroad crossing down here at the under pass here in town with exits uh...a couple of exits coming off and raising the Buskirk Bridge up to the level of that, that was before the new bridge was built this was a suggestion that I had and never much was heard, they was a lot of hearings held but no concrete decisions made and then in later years you know just resents years, why uh...they started talking pretty much on this, they said about the country behind the WHJC radio station back through there and then the room all of sudden, when really push cones to shove their really gonna do something hear they com with the very thing that I was talking about back there in sixty-three in uh...congressional hearing in Washington. It's not to say these other projects weren't also being discussed in that same meeting.

J: But, basically the plan that you had is pretty much the one that's...

MK: The only thing their not relocating, forty-nine on top of it of the dike. Their running forty-nine as I see their protection now around town, uh...just following the curative of the railroad, but the other part, the dike the earth, fill dike flood wall as I understand it is what uh...what is going to be done here in town and still their gonna have uh...I don't think they gonna have a flat gate at the mouth of Mate Creek, they gonna fill in everything above the under pass, uh...to just a shade above railroad level all the way up through there as far as the back waters had gone through these floods which would be on up beyond the grade school uh...would eliminate black gate, then their gonna put in I understand a gate across the railroad that would build on up river from the mouth of Mate Creek in distance there and put in a type of a gate that would seal off when the river started getting up that high uh...I don't know what kind of provisions would be made uh...I don't know what kind of provisions would be made from a stand point when the court gets into actual construction to control storm sewers in town, because the flooding in the underpass section of Matewan where uh...a distance almost to the intersection where you turn up towards Thacker and out here at the corner coming around in the main street here in town usually was back water coming up through the storm drains. The river the creek would be within their compounds, but the back water would start backing' up in the river flood, the under pass and that such so even with that they I would assume that the Board of Engineers are gonna have in their proj...in their construction plans uh...some kind of plans to eliminate that much.

J: Now, when you presented this plan, was it rejected out right or was just nothing was adopted to it?

MK: Just nothing, nothing more ever said about it, uh...when the hearings there in Washington ended that day, I was called aside by man in military uniform, I got over there I didn't know whether he was General or Colonel, I've forgotten, but he told me he said well, Mr. Kirk I've been here all day been listening to all these proposals, pros, cons and everything he said, all I've heard and he was in charge of the Concord of Engineers nationwide. Uh...he said of all the proposals I've heard today said yours in my book has the most merit and makes the most sense said we had s similar situation out, I don't remember now whether it was Illinois or Indiana, the town similar affected as Matewan and they did exactly the same thing, said we have an interstate highway going along top of it, that takes care of problems.

J: I got a question here you may or may not have something you want maybe something you thought about or you haven't, but I've noticed one thing that struck me when I first came here was Matewan apparently the town had never had a newspaper?

MK: Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge.

J: That seems kind of strange to me.

MK: Well, with the Daily News doing a fairly decent job way back uh...I don't know I've worked with the Daily News along about 1932 or 33 somewhere along there. When they began circulating over in the head of main Island Creek over there around Step, Omar, Markus, and those places and always had a good job of covering all the news, uh...and I doubt if anybody's ever entertain the idea of a newspaper in Matewan, I don't even know just how well it would go over you know when you get into something like that, you got in the back of your mind you know, you got to make a little money at it so you can stay in Matewan.

J: Oh, now at this stage I'm sure it would be impractical? IT would seem back in the '20's and the well of course the '30's would be hard to get a paper started up I guess?

MK: Well, true uh...

J: You were telling me yesterday, Red Jacket at one time had a paper...

MK: The company put out a little publication for their employees, the Red Jacketeer and uh...it was all just about happenings in the various communities that Red Jacket serves. See they had not only Red Jacket, but they had Wyoming, West Virginia, uh...Keen Mountain Virginia uh...things like that. They had different operations, coal mountain where Baily Resiviore is now used to Red Jacket Coal operation at Coal Mountain, there uh...so they put a paper out and this same paper covered the all the different operations they had a segment about one or the other operations and one of the other communities, some of the activities going on in the communities and so on.

J: And it would come out once a month or once a week?

MK: As I remember I think it was once a month. It would have you know uh...it was a slick magazine type thing that had pictures and various people or groups, school groups or something like that church groups and so on.

J: Did the company have its own printing operation? Did they contract that out?

MK: You know I think that they uh...I really don't know, but I think that maybe they might had a some printing, because they had, they did color everything else in it a lot of 'em. I don't think they had anything that would produce their color, they may have had now uh...I take it back they may have in some of their main offices which were their general offices were in Columbus Ohio although we always called Red Jacket, their main headquarter and the main office up there which is no longer up there and some they tore it down. Just recently moved a mobile home UPI in that land as I was talking earlier, any coal operations at one time. They something better important said then have'em pick on payroll there at Red Jacket that included people in the main office, they was a bunch of people worked in that office. With the advance of mechanization and uh...more and more uh...sophistication state of the art of mining coal and less people needed, why we've seen our communities uh...not only the floods in Matewan, but like Red Jacket, uh...we've lost uh...in the last thirty-five years in Red Jacket, I'd say we've lost oh...a hundred and fifty homes there no longer where they were son that was like Mitchell Branch used to full of homes for all practical purposes owned coal company houses, but uh...it was full of houses from the mouth of Mitchell Branch to the head of the holler you know where you get up to the head of Mitchell Branch and the forks, they was row they was two roll of houses even side of the road going around each fork and their not there now, they also had uh...all those different mines they had they had three different coal tipples up Mitchell Branch loading' coal from three different mines, one where Mitchell Supply is now it uh...is Red Jacket, but most people call it North Matewan, but it's still part of Red Jacket Community used to be a coal tipple there old number six Red Jacket number six mine then uh...you get I don't if you've been in the area long enough to be familiar when I say Junior Camp of Red Jacket where I'm talking about, but its the area of Red Jacket beyond the grade school.

J: Ok.

MK: Now that part up there is known as Junior Camp and uh...just beyond the grade school you cross the railroad you go on through the community there way across the railroad track again and when you cross right where you cross the railroad track the second time right just up creek above that crossing used to be Junior tipple set in there. Some resemblance of old seventeen, seventeen temple is still standing up there were the new coal loading operation is uh...on up creek UPI next to Newtown.

J.: It seems to me like now I might be wrong abut this, you would probably know that a lot of the economy in the area right now is in a way sort of artificially maintained by Black Lung Compensation or Retirement Finishes and that kind of thing?

MK: This is something we haven't even touched on. At this particular time I would venture to say I don't think they bar wrong that between fifty and sixty percent of our adult population in this entire area is retired people. Now people who are drawing Black Lung, Social Security, Miner Pension, uh...others or drawing Miners Pension and uh...Social Security, some few are drawing Veteran's Pensions of one dimension or another and like myself I'm retired now for soon be two years and uh..I'm on Civil Service Retirement, Social Security. Uh...but most of our as I say I do believe that the census was taken complete census would be found that I don't think it would be far off in fifty or sixty percent of our families here are retired people.

J: What do you think would need to uh...would need to happen to regenerate a sort of a self sustaining economy in this area, of course you've mentioned transportation and flood control but uh...you think that's uh...in the work?

MK: You know I have asked that question, I have thought about it and to be honest.

MK: To be perfectly honest with you, I uh...I haven't been able to come up with any kind of plausible idea or an answer, because of the very topography of this area, there's not indusive very many large plants that would employee any number of people or things of that nature, you know you go put in a even a furniture factory, lets say, in order to accommodate something like that say a furniture factory you're gonna have to have twenty... fifteen...twenty...twenty-five or thirty acres of flat land and with raw material coming in and processing and uh...assembling you have to have pretty good size building just for assembling it, and now you might get into smaller uh...areas manufacturing. I uh...was privileged uh...little over a week ago I know I was out to a family reunion in Kansas uh...brother-in-law of mine took, he was the operating manager of a manufacturing plant in the little town of which were all practical purchaser maybe about the size of Williamson of course that's all flat out there just as flat as a board in that particular community just any way you look at, it's flat as can be, but the space that this one factory took up wasn't a very, didn't command a lot of uh...space some space, because it was very heavy machinery, they handled uh...the manufacture of aluminum and steel parts for aircraft, automobiles, things of that nature. In fact he showed me one machine there that just turned 'em out by the thousands of uh...stainless steel about the size of a aspirin cap that goes on, the end of uh...on one end of the valves in an automobile or aircraft engine was steel black looking was required on all he turns them by the million for a year at the same token he was making' like these wings flaps on your aircraft, your heavy aircraft. As the metal piece moves back and forth like that. Uh...he showing me the raw material he had to work with, it was a big piece of just raw steel weighed around seven hundred pounds. He had a piece of equipment there that they could run off six of these at a time; of course they didn't run 'em off in rapid fire, it took time to do it with, because it was all milled by uh...computer program operations to mill these things little slots, curvatures, and certain places old, everything had to be just real precisioned. It was all done through computer control equipment, but I didn't think to ask to him how many people he employed, but had a real good business, making' little parts like that. Now small plants I mean that can make component parts things of this nature, uh...could fit into this area well, Akers Supply up here, I helped uh...Mr. Herbert Akers get that, that was something that nobody in this country knew even about, but he was selling it at that time, he was he got into the, I don't know how he found out about it, but he found a milling company I believe it was up in Pennsylvania somewhere and he'd ordered by the boxcar load set in on the side track where his mill is now and uh...sell off out of the boxcar he'd have orders for most of it he and another fellow uh...but the other fellow he got out of it, see they sold rock dust and magnetite the same way out the boxcars backed in on the siding and uh...he hit on the idea of uh...he thought he could do a better job if he could get into it and mill it himself, but he didn't have the money, thought that he needed to get into the business he didn't have a hand on it and so he and I together we located a through coal aides and some of the uh...industry magazines trying' to find a outfit, uh...Denver Equipment Company, Denver, Colorado that had these kind of mills that would. This job we wrote and got some literature on it got some ideas and called and so forth, he tried some of the local business people here to induce them to go in with him and help raise the money put it in and it being something that nobody knew anything like this when I came down the bank fork the person at the bank at that time, which was Danny Chambers, Dan Chambers Jr. and uh...told him what we was talking about and uh...sold him on the idea and he got the Board of Directors to go along to participate in it and so we took awhile to get it all to go through the red tape process of the SBA, but it was finally approved, he had local uh...young men in Red Jacket up there during the construction of that to come in and build part to the original plan, and uh...he had set it up to pay it off in five years. What money he had to borrow, and uh...he told me later on that he paid it off in 19 months and it's a very, very well run organization. Uh...employee quiet a few people here at Red Jacket, and now have expanded operations down at Dock's Creek. But there's an interpetuer that hand out very well not only for the uh...individual, but also for the community everybody's from now day Danny and boys who have since their father had since retired and their operating and I must say their doing a very good job of it.

J: I have one last question and your the first person I've ask this question to, but I just, I have an idea you have as an objective an answer probably as anybody could and you may or may not want to express an opinion on this I don't know. What effect on this community did the uh...did the 1984 strike have or eighty-four - eighty-five I guess it was?

MK: Well, it uh...there's no doubt in my mind it had a great affect on the community because. And one of the sad parts about it was that you had members of family on opposing side in many instances fathers against sons, brothers against brothers, uh...brothers against sisters, and the whole spectrum. Uh...this was the one thing, now it caused quiet...somthing of this nature causes, at the time, a few hard feelings among people. I think that uh...in the short span if time from then 'til now we have seen that pretty, well, once they started going back to work a lot of that just quieted sown and things gone along quiet well businesses suffered during the strike as anywhere as I now uh...observed in, you see on the news now throughout Southern West Virginia as I saw on channel three news yesterday evening about Logan, and they were really in depth interviews in Logan about how its already affecting many of the businesses, some worse than others, but those that are not so bad, affect it right now they expect it to last another week or two weeks, but there gonna be some of the businesses also fifty-sixty percent, and some of the these people may not even survive it like people in this part of the country are very resilient people buying large very reasonable people, they see problems, they give it their best shot, and if it works out to their benefit, it's doing good, and if it doesn't work out to well they pick up the pieces and try to go forward and uh...this has been history of this part of the country, we might have our hardships or disagreements so forth, but we one way or another we can settle it, not always settle to the satisfaction of everybody, but by in large we give it our best shot we do what we can then we just have to pick up the pieces and go ahead and most generally that's done without, uh...the animosity soon began to fade, shall we say uh...they'll be a few people who would still hold the old feelings, the ole and as it come about in this presence situation, uh...its stirred some of that up because there many people uh...in our area who lost jobs because. And have not been able to regain those jobs and they've seen other people come in and take their jobs and for some reason or another, and uh...I don't understand it because I thought personally I thought they were laws on the book under the Tab Partly Laws, and uh...the Wagoner Labor Laws like that uh...employees of a company elected by maturely oath to be represented by a labor holds decision or federation or whatever that the company uh...was compelled to recognize into reverse that they had to be a vote of the people, working people involved whether or not in this band before they can get, they could not be don't know what it is, but they go so far and like as high rate here in the news today and yesterday, and last week. Ten days or so even the length of this strike that's going on now for Piston, just no were finished were not gonna talk to you wee, I thought it was the law they said, they had to negotiate and if they couldn't they had to take it to find a harbor these men and stuff and settle the hard feelings cause a lot of people still without jobs have seen other people move in and take the job that they had claimed to and nothing done abut it there are some I understand one or two law suits things, we don't know yet I don't think they know yet when they gonna finally get a final hearing or trial or whatever has to come up about it.

J: Did many people leave the community after the strike?

MK: Uh...not a whole lot of people, some did uh.. some of the younger people offered to leave and most of the ones that I have any knowledge of went South bound, Georgia, North Carolina, they took uh...jobs down in there, but nothing that pays near what the coal mining makes, but uh...this nothing new our young people have been emigrating from this area for a number of years. I got uh...three well, I've, two of my sons to leave right out of high school, their Michigan doing very well I must I must say, but they had to leave out go elsewhere to find any kind of meaningful employment, because uh...at the times they come out of high school and like the union was still strong, everything was running smoothly, but uh...it was hard for a young man to break into the labor force for most of these coal mines had been laid off and they were on a tall black seniority call, at that time were new employees. It was hard to find a job and seems like there still is hard open in here, I understand that uh...most of them are bringing in people from Virginia and places like that to. Do you know as employees now they have hired some local people, but not all you see as many Virginia tags on them. And I wonder why; how they get by in the state of West Virginia over here permanently hauling coal on West Virginia roads and no West Virginia license and not paying any taxes.

J: That leads to another question, one more last question.

MK: "Laughing". You never know where things like this lead when you get to talking'.

J: When did those coal trucks first start showing up in this area, has it been ten years, fifteen years?

MK: Oh, let me see well, actually now in uh...right in Matewan here uh...that's been happening I guess uh...last fifteen or twenty years, but it has gotten so much heavier out of Mate Creek. Anywhere you travel now you're running into coal trucks on these blinding roads, uh...in fact everything, and this is all happened within the past ten years deeper liberation. And one thing that well here something else for many years, uh...United States Steel Corporation owned most of the metal rights, they and Cotiga Development Corporation are the principal, were the principal land holders, I can't leave out uh....Pocahontas Land, N & W security, and Cotiga, and US Steel in particular, they would not uh...for many years they would not sublease any of their coal out, they put in their own operation up here at Thacker, which is now Old Ben. Uh...they bought the ole Crystal Block Coal Corporation out and started operations in there, but they've got millions and millions of. They had millions and millions of tons of coal running, mining coal laying back in the head of Mate Creek, the head of Pigeon Creek, and Main Island Creek, Old Ben Creek, Gilbert Creek, and Horsepen Creek all in one great big solid area of coal. And just in the last couple of three years or so, they sold all that to Pocahontas, they reserved themselves amounts of uh...certain areas that they were going to mine themselves uh...but they sold the whole thing and uh...leased it back from Pocahontas Land got thing, got all the dust cleared from the deal and everything they started leasing coal land out and all of a sudden you got a whole perliperation of small mining operations.

J.: So, these uh...

MK: You got about five or six mining operations, small mining operations up Mate Creek, now above Red Jacket and Newtown.

J.: Now these companies they have to be charted to do business in West Virginia, but if they if they haul in Virginia and Kentucky license trucks, they don't have to pay any taxes on the roads is that right?

MK: I don't know how their getting by, because. Alright, let's say that you for example, lived on Ohio side down in Huntington, you live over there, but you work in West Virginia, your driving back and forth every day nothing wrong with that, but if you come to West Virginia and establish a residence over here whether you rent or buy, you got thirty, forty, sixty days, I don't remember now so many days to put West Virginia license on your car, now when you got coal trucks that are on dominal side in West Virginia not going back to Buckhanon County or uh...whatever county their from, everyday their staying over here and operating same law should apply. We've got local truckers who are not hauling coal, but uh...I don't know if you paid attention to it you look at these coal trucks, most of the time when you see a few every once a while with West Virginia, but you see Virginia and Kentucky tags on them.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection