Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

William Aliff Interview

John Hennen: Sound check on mike one interviewers microphone July 13, 1989. Sound check on mike two narrator's microphone July 13, 1989. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center preparing to conduct and Oral History Interview with William Aliff at his home in Blackberry City it is approximately 10:00 a.m.

William Aliff: William Raymond Aliff, born 1918 at Sharondale, Kentucky.

J: And what were your parents names?

WA: Jake Mansfield and Flora Belle...Flora Belle Dalton.

J: Where is Sharondale in relation to where we are now?

WA: It's over on Pond Creek above Belfry, next place above Belfry I don't know if they even a sign there now or not.

J: Was uh...Sharondale a coal camp?

WA: It was coal mining camp.

J: What company was operating there?

WA: Now that I don't know, but O. W. Evans was superintendent of the company at that time.

J: Did you have brothers and sisters?

WA: Yel, I have one brother and four sisters.

J: Are they living?

WA: Their all living.

J: Did your family live in company owned housing at this time?

WA: They lived in company owned houses they always had a good house because my father was in management he was either the mine foreman and one time he was superintendent of McDowell County and at that time the man of the mine foreman he had to be the toughest man on the mountain.

J: So that meant your father was the toughest man on the mountain?

WA: He had to be yel.

J: Why was that?

WA: Well, I don't know control I guess. "Laughing" and also they'd imported a lot of Hungarians and Italians and emigrants in the coal fields to mine coal they just didn't have enough labor and so uh...my father could understand enough to keep those guys workin' you know.

J: He could speak some of the language?

WA: Yeah, and the way the way did that was I usually got 'em kind of got 'em a leader and they would put 'em in a boardin' house or something where these fellows could stay and they would pay 'em board and he would furnish 'em their drinks and so on and they would load coal and uh...so consequently this contractor got a commission off of this coal you see he was paid a contractor's fee and let's see how that worked? Well, any how you would have this boardin' house and a whole bunch of 'em you know and get that he would get paid by the car whatever was paid you know and uh...those people they were good people uh...and they liked to have parties and dances and they usually had a recreational hall in these minin' camps.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: and minin' towns and they would have their dances and things there and a lot of 'em played some music, they had their own music and so on and they really had a good livin' in the minin' town, plus now my people came from Virginia, farmin' country and farms run down and so on and so they really liked these minin' towns cause they never been in a place where they'd have a good house and maybe indoor plumbing in my case we always had it and when they paid ever half you know and so on and just a much better life than tryin' to make it on a farm in Virginia you know and the rest of my father's side went to railroadin' and my mother's side he was a farm blacksmith and so he was a blacksmith in this country at they spent some time in McDowell County before they came down here my oldest memories is well we went back to McDowell County after my father got shot up here at Vulcan you know he got shot three times up there they had to put him on the train I well remember that.

J: Yel, what was that all about?

WA: Well, they were down 'ere playin' poker and got into it and so Dewey Blankenship told me that my dad beat him to his gun and they backed down, but they shot as he went down the steps as he was leavin' you know shot him three times and so he was in at that time only way you could get of here to a hospital was on a train and he laid there and they put him on number four that morning to St. Luke Hospital in Bluefield and he was in that hospital for seven or eight months.

J: I'll be darn. Now this shooting did that have anything to do with his role as a mine foreman or was it strictly a personal thing about this poker game you think?

WA: It, it might have had something to do with him being a foreman because you know sometimes he'd let people go and so on they might have been a little resentment to things like that I don't really know about that cause I was to young to know those things.

J: Did he fully recover from these wounds?

WA: Yeah, he fully recovered and he when he got out the hospital uh...we moved from down here at the McDowell County and he was superintendent at Ureka Mine and he stayed there for three years and then we came back to uh...down in this area at Chattaroy, West Virginia and he was Mine Foreman at Chattaroy, West Virginia at those mines for the N & W fuel department and see that's where he was when he left when he got shot up was N & W Fuel Department of Vulcan they had coal openin' station 'ere you know where they coaled trains and watered 'em and so on.

J: Now did N & W...

WA: They mined their own coal.

J: So N & W owned coal mines?

WA: Yel, N & W...N & W...Pocahontas Land still has all the coal tied up in this area the largest bound East of Mississippi now their leasin' it out.(Phone rings - Mr. Aliff answers)

J: Now your father then was working uh...for N & W at the N & W Fuel Depot was he there when they the strike in 1920 and '21 was going on?

WA: Yel, now what they did they appointed all these guys as State Police I don't know how many of 'em was State Police there at Vulcan.

J: Appointed company employees as State Police?

WA: Yeah, yeah he was appointed to the State Police ole Captain Broxice was his name at that time head of State Police in West Virginia and of course all it was just gave 'em a permit to carry a gun because of that strike you know.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: But, that was all later that was still going on about '23 or '24 when that was when he went up to Vulcan see he went from Sharondale to Belfry been in smaller corporations in here minin' this coal and wanted Sharondale wanted Belfry that's when Belfry was minin' and one over here at McCarr and Freeburn and so he came from then from Belfry he came to Freeburn from Freeburn he went to the N & W Fuel Department at Vulcan you know and I can remember some of that because we moved in a wagon you know.

J: Oh, is that right.

WA: Yel, moved with wagon and mules.

J: What kind of roads did you traverse when you moved?

WA: The road ran along a river just a wagon road and forted ? the river up 'ere you know and uh...and uh...if you moved any distance you moved in a boxcar the N & W would set you a boxcar in on the side then you'd put everything in that boxcar some people had cows and so on for their children's milk and they'd even put those in 'ere and then you would go to this minin' town that were you were movin' to and stay in a boardin' house they would usually have three boardin' houses in the minin' community one would be more or less for English speakin' people, one for Italians, one for Hungarians and some cases Spanish to...yel there always a Spanish boardin' house.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: And then when your boxcar came in they would move it or have it moved out of this boxcar into your house you know is the way you moved about.

J: Did your family keep a cow?

WA: Yel, my family always kept a cow we've had had four children at that time and so we always had plenty of milk to drink.

J: Were there boarding houses for black miners and their families as well?

WA: Well, they had usually had the box separated, in a separate community of the minin' camp and they would be some people keep 'em boarders, but I don't remember exactly remember a black boardin' house.

J: These boarding houses were they owned and operated by the company or were they private?

WA: They were owned big house in these camps you know so the company built these big houses especially for boardin' houses.

J: These uh...uh...contractor's that you mentioned a little bit earlier, were they actually they were under the employ of the company and they would be country men of the particular groups that they were in charge of. Is that right?

WA: Yel, yel well I you know they catered to the company because the company paid 'em a contract price on that coal and see so consequently they spoke Hungarian or Italian or Spanish and they took these men in the mines and they loaded coal by hand and uh...so they uh...the company paid 'em that contract and well I think the company even handled their employee's money and paid them so much for the car, but they had these guys in these boardin' houses.

J: Now the crews that worked in the mines were they did all Hungarians work together? Did all the Italians work together or were they mixed up?

WA: Usually when it was a contractor it would be Hungarians workin' for a Hungarian contractor or Spanish workin' for a Spanish contractor or Italian workin' for a Italian. Now I can remember the last names of uh...a Spanish person that run the boardin' house he name was Capo and uh...Sonny was Italian and uh...I forgot who was Hung...uh...several Hungarians there, but I don't remember which one run the boardin' house I knew 'em, but I can't remember their name.

J: Now, was this at Vulcan?

WA: No, this was at the N & W Fuel Department.

J: Ok. Now you mentioned that your father was special deputy for the State Police like in 1923 and '24, so then after the strike in '20 and '21 there was still some labor management conflict goin' on I suppose after that?

WA: Well, they kept these guys as State Police as State Police as a method of control see he'd moved out of Kentucky from Freeburn to Vulcan and so when he moved into West Virginia why he was appointed as a State Police you know and so evidently they must a still well they was still concerned about this strike and mine wars you know if it was gonna come up again or what you know.

J: Then did you begin elementary school?

WA: Yel, I begin elementary school in McDowell County.

J: McDowell?

WA: At Ekman or Ureka place was called.

J: Was this a one room school?

WA: No, it uh...it had four rooms in it and it was a two story buildin' brick school and also I well remember that they had dental care in that school. These dentist would come and look at the children's teeth and they filled one of my teeth and I eatin' a apple and pushed that fillin' down in on that nerve and my father had to take me to Keystone to another dentist and get him to pull that fillin' up off of that nerve and he removed that nerve and put another fillin' in.

J: Were you screamin' the whole time?

WA: Oh, I guess...yel I was "Laughing". Yel, but then later when we came down here we didn't have anything like that down in this area.

J: When did you move to this area?

WA: Well, uh...let's see we came back to this area I believe around 1925 I guess to Chattaroy and from Chattaroy we went to uh...no, I don't know we went up to Thacker awhile and then my dad left N & W Fuel Department went to Thacker for awhile at that time there was two minin' towns up 'ere, but we only stayed 'ere about 4 or 5 months and he went back to the N & W Fuel Department at New Camp that's South Williamson.

J: Still as a foreman I guess?

WA: Yel, still as a foreman.

J: Now when did you begin uh...to work in the mines or around the mines?

WA: I started work about 1932 along 'ere at that time the N & W Fuel Department would employ some of the some of the boys really uh...well, cuttin' power lines and uh...uh...rebuildin' fence in their mine camp and scrappin' houses for painters and things like that, things that they could do.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: And I worked with the carpenter force myself.

J: A what force?

WA: Carpenters.

J: Oh, okay.

WA: Just had two carpenters in those minin' camps they always in a minin' camp they had uh...usually had a plumber and they usually had two carpenters that kept those houses up you know.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: In those houses they had uh...they had uh...bath with a shower and used the commode with we set down on a seat when you set down on the seat the water started runnin' up in the tank and when you got up off of it of that seat it raised and let the water flush it.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: The whole time.

J: So, when you sit down that would activate some kind of a pump...

WA: It would activate a valve had water in the houses and it would push this water up in this water up in this tank then when you raised off of it why the seat would raise up and it would flush. It didn't have a lid on it either. "laughing" So, you had to keep something in it to keep it clean.

J: Were you required to get any kind of work permit or anything like that being only fourteen?

WA: Nothing other than my father sign it, at that time uh...a miner could take his son in the mines and all he had to sign he had to sign for this form and he took him in 'ere and taught him to load coal and to mine and then after they were in 'ere awhile then they'd give 'em a place of their own to load coal or some cases why they would give 'em a man and his son two places then the father would look after him you know dependin' on how much coal that place made in the shift were they'd cut it you know.

J: Now, did you begin working full time or did you work in the summers or on school breaks or?

WA: I just worked on school breaks see I went to uh...grade school in South Williamson, I went my first year in uh...at Belfry and I started playin' football and I was pretty good football player you know and or fair you know I was to light to be that good I only weighed 155 pounds, but uh...anyhow I transferred to Williamson High School and at that time Ellis Johnson was coachin' Williamson High School, in fact he got me they was several of us boys from New Camp and Mike Emmett was one and so on and played played for Williamson High School.

J: I knew Ellis Johnson or I know Ellis Johnson.

WA: You do.

J: Yeah, from over at Marshall.

WA: Is Ellis still livin'?

J: Uh...he had a stroke a few years ago, but I think he came back pretty good from it and I believe he is still living.

WA: He married a McCoy out of Williamson Ellis did. Did you know his wife?

J: No, no I never knew her.

WA: Yel.

J: He's a fine fellow I liked him.

WA: So, I didn't finish high school and the reason was by transferrin' down 'ere why Ben Hampton was coach at that time after Ellis left Williamson and he wanted me to play football another year you know and he wanted me to layout a semester and so, since I had a job over at the N & W Fuel Department they placed me with a carpenter force I went ahead and stayed out that semester, but in the meantime why I wound up in Majestic my father went up 'ere and I went up Majestic and work some and so about that summer they passed a rule into West Virginia, that you had to be in school the last semester the semester before that you played football, you know and so that cut me out I was ineligible so I went back to N & W Fuel Department and worked over there and went to school, but my grades went down I was tryin' to work a mine shift plus going to school and then I walked over a mile to school each way you know and I just didn't have the time to keep my grades up and do my studying and so on and so I just got disgusted and quit school and I left N & W Fuel Department and went back to Majestic and started minin' and I stayed 'ere 16 years then and then I later I left Majestic I might be gettin' you off track do you want to ask me the question.

J: No, that's okay go ahead I'll come back and ask questions.

WA: And so uh...Majestic things dropped off so bad in the last of the '40's and in the '50's there they hadn't worked but one day in July so I went to Wyoming County and was employed by Pocahontas Fuel Company they were openin' a new mines over there and I went over there where I could get more work and then Island Creek started changin' equipment puttin' in this modern rubber tire equipment and so I went over there and they gave me a job at 24 mine and stayed at 24 mine from '53 until '60 when they had a big layoff over there.

J: Is this also Wyoming County?

WA: No, this was local where I could drive to work that's Rockhouse Fork Road over from Delbarton you see and that's the reason I came back so I could be at home you know I had children and so on and so after that layoff I went up Cincinnati worked on Marcum Dam awhile joined a carpenters union and then in '62 I think it was why I got this job with uh...The Mingo Bowling Lanes they were puttin' a bowling lane in over here at Goody I'd always kind of done this repair work on the side had a little repair business on the side besides of my mine work and so they sent me to Chicago to learn Brunswick Equipment in bowlin' lanes and so I went up 'ere and I did real well at that I one person made one point made 99 point out of a 100 and I made 98 out of a 100.

J: This is repairin' the equipment.

WA: Repairin' the equipment and so I came back down here and did that. and we...uh had this flood a real big flood in '63 you know and it flooded all that equipment and so since I belonged to the carpenters union Brunswick used uh...meal right men and so on out that union so I went back in that union and was reinstated over at Allen Kentucky and so consequently I got paid meal right wages and so from then in then on I done well on Brunswick Equipment overhaulin' and so on and so they offered me a job, but I wouldn't take it, but the Brunswick Center Operations took over this and so I worked for Brunswick Center Operations and they move me about pretty much you know they sent me up to Louisville, bowling lanes and Middletown and then our field our regional office was in Charlotte, North Carolina and so I went down there and then when that last flood why I moved this bowling lane out down 'ere we just closed it up they did.

J: Now is this the '77 flood?

WA: Nah, this was the '67 flood around let's see was it yel it would have been in '67 yel flood would and so '67 then I I had a heart murmur it wasn't anything to keep me from working or anything you know they found that and so I decided well, I better go back to mine because we had a rulin' you know that uh...they made you had to have 20 years out of last 30 years before you got your retirement pay and your health benefits and so I decided to go back and get those.

J: How much more time did you need?

WA: Well, I really wudn't needed any if I'd known about this court rulin' they were gonna make when it came up and these people sued why the supreme court ruled that that was unrealistic that they was tryin' to eliminate people from their benefits by makin' that rulin' and so I wudn't needed to go back if I'd known but I didn't know that you know because I'd been offered this job in Memphis with a Broker's Corporation and uh...so I went back to Island Creek and they reinformed me and I worked at 17 mine the rest of the time 'til I reached the point where they told me that I better stop minin' because of my lungs and this heart murmur and so I just decided I just give it up and take my miners pension.

J: And when was that?

WA: That was in, that was in '73 I think.

J: That 17 mine is that over around is that in Red Jacket?

WA: It's Red Jacket mine yel.

J: When you worked in uh...Cincinnati and Lexington and different places around did you try to come home on weekends most the time or did you?

WA: Yel, I came home well, Brunswick paid for one trip home a week at 8 cents a mile.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: and plus they paid your motel bill and meals I never I'd never dreamed of ever workin' for a corporation that wanted you to have a good place to sleep and a good and something to eat why you work and so I thought it was pretty good.

J: That does sound like a good deal.

WA: Well, meal right wages at that time were pretty good they I think it was $4.96 that was more than minin' you know.

J: So, you I assume that you would've not gone back in the mines except for this regulation.

WA: Except for that rulin' that John L. had made in '65, but if I'd known that court case was coming up and they were gonna win it I wouldn't went back anyhow I would have relocated in Memphis or Miami I could have went either place you know I didn't like Miami, but I went out to Memphis. I like Memphis pretty good.

J: So this 1965 agreement was a consession that Lewis made to get a contract.

WA: No. huh...huh. He ruled that to eluminate all these miners that...(tape cuts off)

WA: I went back in mine four more years I really I only needed uh...I only needed uh...I would have only needed 8 months to qualified for that 20 out of the last 30, but I didn't have it and so I knew they would cut me out of that the benefits I had see at that time we didn't know anything about these black lung benefits or anything coming up and you needed that pension that social security to have a decent livin' you know and the medical care was an important thing to me because I was always already havin' these problems with my this heart murmur and my lungs you know.

J: By 1965 or even a few years before that did Rank and File Miners have much to say about how the union operated?

WA: Well, uh...not really they didn't have as much say as they do now see uh...we had this change after Tony Boyle you know and they decided to have more democracy in the union and then they began to have more to say about contracts and so on. We had uh...we would have uh...maybe one person from a local go to a convention, but the way I understood in John L. Lewis days those conventions were run that he'd have these big husky guys spotted about in the convention and if one of these guys from the local got up and brought up something he didn't want brought up why one of these guys would get up and start a big fight and stop it all at least that's what Stewart Hurley told me he was up 'ere one time said you had to be careful what you got up and said one of them guys would raise up and knock you down.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: But, we have more democracy in the union now than we ever had had more say so you know.

J: That uh...the miners for democracy movement in which got underway when in the late '60's I guess.

WA: Late '60's yel.

J: Were you involved in that at all or?

WA: Yel, uh...uh...I was involved in that and a friend of mine he's dead now over here Earl Stafford he was involved in it Earl did a lot in that now I didn't do that much in that other, but the time I was workin' then I contributed some money to things you know like this black lung association and so on.

J: Hmm! hmm!

WA: And uh...uh...personally I feel like now you know we ought to have more organizations workin' on this thing that were into on this contract and so on and then just the United Mine Workers because what it means these corporations are comin' in here and they gonna move haul this coal out of here and these people not gonna have anything much left to live on the coal is a bad bone of it all you know of course that's just my opinion you know.

J: What was the uh...you may or may not have an opinion on this I just want to be sure and ask you, what was the reaction or the sentiment say within the miners for democracy or the reform movement within the union when Yablonski? was killed?

WA: Oh, we we uh...we definitely wanted to get rid of Tony Boyle that's what we wanted to do and we wanted Yablonski? president of the United Mine Workers and uh...of course uh...that election must have been rigged because Yablonski? got beat the best I remember and then later it was coming up you know now Yablonski? would have been ahead of the United Mine Workers no doubt, but he was killed and of course Tony Boyle was convicted for that. That he had hired these uh...burglars to go up 'ere and kill him. Now I don't know if that that all that's true a lot of coal miners right today think that some way that was rigged against Tony Boyle and he wasn't involved in that. You know. I mean the old coal miners you know I went and talked with some of 'em when was tryin' to get this reform and to get rid of Tony Boyle and uh...or not get rid of Tony, Tony was already into this other, but to elect uh...we wanted to elect Miller that he's all we had left and uh...

J: That's Arnold Miller.

WA: Arnold Miller and so I went and talk with some of the old timers and what they would tell me "no that was rigged against Tony" said we don't know said CIA or something was involved in that and said that wudn't Tony that them guys was even talkin' to.

J: Hmm!

WA: That's the way they felt about it you know that they wudn't believe that Tony was involved in that in no way.

J: How did you feel about that?

WA: Well, I felt like that we needed to be rid of Tony Boyle I didn't feel like he was doin' the job for the coal miners you know, but uh...I felt like you know that evidently they had evidence to convict him you know I didn't think they was anything made up against him I didn't think they was anything involved like that just to get rid of one labor leader you know like CIA or something had been involved I never did think that.

J: Miller uh...was Miller a disappointment as president of the union?

WA: Miller! Miller was a disappointment he was a real disappointment and Miller wouldn't have been elected president of the United Mine Workers, but that was he was the only one left we had he'd worked in this he is president of this Black Lung Association in West Virginia and they'd worked hard for this reform you know and so he was the only one that we had that was well known enough to elect that won, we did get him elected uh...well a bunch of my friends worked in Earl Stafford and me and Carl Clark and I don't know how many of us that was in this Black Lung Association you know, but at that time I was pretty sick anyhow I'd been in the hospital and wasn't doin' to good so I couldn't work to much, but I made several trips with Earl to Charleston and I don't know if I was with Carl any or not, but I was with Paul Davis and we were over 'ere at uh...Miller's headquarters and I'd met Miller on two or three different occasions and actually in my opinion I didn't think that Miller was qualified to be president of the United Mine Workers you know, but like I said he was all we had. Then also, later Sam Church and he was a tremendous disappointment. Sam Church was and I been real happy with Trumpka the reason for that I've always felt like that the Mine Workers should be operated like a corporation is. With smart people head of it and Miller and Trumpka you know had a law degree and so on and I felt like he was well educated and smart enough to be president of the United Mine Workers and I felt like that's what we needed you know.

J: Yel, it offset the count of power the companies had and pretty much.

WA: We have to have that.

J: Need somebody like that.

WA: That's my argument regardless of how much we have to pay 'em or whatever the mine workers we gonna have to have people like that ahead of our union because...I'm not runnin' myself down or anything, but I realize that I just don't have the education and intelligence to handle anything like that you know and I just want to hire smart peoples to do it for me for all the mine workers you know.

J: And even Trumpka's got his hands full.

WA: Well, now you know we they have so many laws that passed now the reason...the reason I feel were havin' such a time today is uh...because of that strike in WW II. You know we had a strike and the government took over the mines and we had uh...only difference we had uh...flag flying and the same management had uh...was handling the mines and all the government was guarantee 'em so much a ton profit on a ton of coal and those guys to cover that up that was in mine management man they bought all kinds of steel and supplies. They had layin' everywhere time that the contract was signed and the government turned the mines loose to run the cost of coal up you know because you know every dollar increase on a ton of coal on a percentage basis that meant that much more profit you know every dollar increase on a ton of coal on a percentage basis that meant that much more profit you know so that's the way they run the cost of coal up during that time.

J: How long did the government hold the mines wasn't very long was it?

WA: I don't think it was uh...I couldn't give you the exact amount of time, but it wasn't very long maybe 5 or 6 weeks maybe 3 months I just don't remember at that time I was employed at Majestic college down 'ere.

J: Now you had joined the union in 1933 is that correct?

WA: '33.

J: Where did...

WA: I went in as a charter member you know when uh...when uh...NRA come up National Recovered Administration under that why that gave us the freedom to belong to a union you know they couldn't keep us from belongin' to a union and when they came in to organize the union every man that lived in the minin' camp and worked walked down to join the union you never saw such horse to join the union as they was, because they were loadin' coal by the they were loadin' coal by the car and plus they had this dock for slate, dock for a light car and about half the dock give two docks on a car you lost a whole car of coal you know so these people weren't doin' well at all you know. Really! really a bad time.

J: So what local uh...what was you local when you first signed up?

WA: That I can't remember the local number.

J: Now, once the union was recognized in 1933 then did the did you get your own check weighman?

WA: Yel, yel we elected our, we elected our own check weighman and they had to put scales in to weigh the coal and that away they paid you by the ton I think the first scale was about 47 cents a ton and the loaders had to buy their own powder and caps to shoot the coal and in some cases they had to drill it with these old breast augers(?) and some places they had a drill crew and paid them so much a ton to drill this coal and they paid the cuttin' crew the same way. They paid them so much a ton for cuttin' coal and machine men and drill men had a...had a fairly good job they made fairly good wages you know and then they started movin' mechanized equipment and uh...they paid machines and so on. A little higher wages uh...I think track helper was $4.86 and track man $5.60 and if you if you got $6.16 I think for machine worker.

J: Per day.

WA: Per day.

J: $6.16 per day.

WA: Ye, well its paid by the hour, but if that's what it came to $6.16 per day.

J: Now uh...say in 1933 or '34 how many shifts would you be workin' a week?

WA: Well, during the winter months mines would be down uh...some cases they'd be down to one day a week, one day or two weeks dependin' on orders they had, but then when spring came after the after the lakes opened the order came and so coal production increased a lot and through the summer normally I would work about five days a week, but through the winter I remember I didn't it was one, two and three days a week.

J: Were you able then during the winter to pick up carpenter work on the side or that type of thing supplement your income or what?

WA: No, at that time I wasn't doin' that I didn't start doin' that work until uh...uh...WW II.

J: At this time I was talkin' about you were still just 16 or 17 years old weren't you?

WA: Yeah.

J: When did you or when did the union first to your memory first start lobbying for Black Lung benefits is that something that had been talked about on and off for years and years or was it uh...happened pretty fast?

WA: Na, we didn't we didn't have any news of that ourself 'til around 19 and uh...I believe in 1968 they started lobbying until the coal miner hisself really knew about it and uh...uh...well, a lot of organizations had credit now if the mine workers work for it the Black Association work for it and uh...and they just had so many sick miners you know that were dying with Black Lung and couldn't work, couldn't breathe and so actually I always felt like that some way the government knew about these conditions down here with miners they might have brought it to their attention you know through the uh...hospitals and so on and I think that's the reason they sent these Vista workers down in this area cause it was depressed and I actually think they helped a lot gettin' these miners organized to fight for that Black Lung you see.

J: Vista workers did.

WA: Yeah, because miners just... they just don't have the know how to organize anything and so on you know, themselves.

J: So how did this organization uh... take form? Would you... well you mentioned went to... you lobbied in Charleston some.

WA: Yeah, that was... that was uh... Black Lung Association, you know, and it wa... it was formed, well... uh... Donald Raspusin(?), a doctor in Beckley, a loan doctor, and Arnold Miller and uh... maybe... maybe Donald's wife, a lot of 'em was instrumental in organizing the Black Lung Association.

J: What kind of response did the uh... did the coal companies have to the Black Lung movement?

WA: Well, th... the coal companies didn't like 'em and... and uh... because they would picket the mines and stop the mines from working, the Black Lung Association would. And that might have been the way the government got the attention of... of this area, I don't know.

J: Were these pickets uh... black lung pickets authorized by the Union?

WA: No. No. Uh... Tony Boyle especially didn't like 'em, you know, because remember at the same time we were fighting this thing on this uh... uh... pension and health benefits. See he had pulled all these miners' health cards away from them in the United Mine Workers and that was only hospitalization they had. And so consequently they were out without hospitalization plus most of 'em even when they had uh... over twenty years to qualify for their pension wasn't going to have twenty out of the last thirty. That was unrealistic, that's the reason the spring court ruled that way.

J: So Boyle then had come up with this twenty out of thirty scheme in order to cut back on expenses, is that uh...?

WA: No. John L. Lewis...

J: Lewis had done that.

WA: ... still had the mine workers in. And then at that time, why John L. left and he put Tony Boyle head of the United Mine Workers, and Tony Boyle was his, you know, his... I don't know his... I don't know why he picked him, but he'd always worked with John L.

J: What is the... from your observation... what is the relative strength of the Union now as compared to say the forties and the fifties?

WA: Well, it's... it's not near as strong because in the forties, we had uh... we had around four hundred and fifty thousand United Mine Workers. See at that time, they had a tremendous labor force in the mines because they hand-loaded coal and so on. And uh... so that made us a lot stronger plus uh... uh... well, you couldn't have operated a non-union mine in this area in the thirties or forties because these miners just wouldn't have tolerated it. But uh... then they started working on laws against the labor unions, you know, and uh... so consequently they just made the labor unions a lot weaker, uh... I mean I... I think it applies to all labor unions but especially the coal miners, and I think it was part of a scheme to weaken the mine workers Union because of that strike during World War II. Because eh... whenever the miners shut down they shut down all the coal production, you know.

J: So then you feel like after that strike then uh... legislators and the companies got together to weaken the Union?

WA: Yeah, I... I... that's what I feel like, yeah, sure do. See, you know, what... what that amounts to, you know, when the mine workers strike, they can't shut down the supply of coal completely. They can hurt the supply of coal, but they can't shut it down completely. But uh... my thoughts on this is uh... is th... uh... right now they just turn corporations loose on miners. I mean they letting them hire security guards and all this, you know. I... I just feel like they turned the corporations loose and also I feel like someday, this might backfire on 'em. I tell you why, these corporations will have all these security forces and things on their side and sometime them... uh... the legislators might pass a law that corporations don't like and they might rebel against it, and use these same people then to fight the troops or state police or whatever, you know. I don't like it myself.

J: So, it's in a sense...

WA: I think you should be limited to the amount of people they can have uh... security forces I mean. They can't just bring in a whole se... a whole force of security people because a mines on strike. They should be allowed enough to protect their property and... and just... that's it.

J: Do you see any diff... er... much difference between the use of security, private security guards now, and the use of private security guards in the twenties and the thirties?

WA: Oh, yeah, we never... we never had any. We didn't have any in the thirties and the forties. There wasn't any security guards when we were on strike. There wasn't any company property damaged either. Nobody didn't damage anything. The only thing that these mine towns had... they had a deputy sheriff. And uh... he was more or less controlled, I guess, by the company, but... uh... the sheriff of the county th... they usually allowed them one deputy sheriff in a... in a mining town, you know. In some cases, the company might have paid 'em for 'em, I don't know, you know, might have paid his salary, but that would be all there is.

J: When the Union was recognized in th... in 1933, did... did this... did the legislation uh... uh... alter any of the practices of the company stores or were the company stores pretty much faded out by that time anyway?

WA: No, uh... we still... we still had the company stores, and uh... this area, you know, these camps were isolated, you know. And that company store did a service, they had high prices, but they had anything that you wanted in those company stores. Up at Glen Alum, this old company store, they even had coffins for people, people could buy their coffins there. But back in those days, people made most of their coffins. But you could actually buy anything in that company store you'd need. If they didn't have it, they would order it for... for 'em, you know. You bought your furniture, you bought everything through 'em. And their... their payments were liberal, they took... took it over the payroll. They didn't have any carrying charges, but the prices were high. But not... not too... not outrageous or anything. I'd say they were not any higher... they weren't any higher then like you buying today and paying eighteen per cent on credit accounts, you know. I don't think they were any higher than that. That is the people who use credit.

J: Before the Union came in, 1933, uh... how did injured miners take care of themselves and their families?

WA: That... that, to me, was a real tragedy. Uh... they had these company doctors and they would set their legs and do the best they could, and they had uh... they had one hospital in Williamson, Williamson Memorial Hospital, and the miners paid uh... they usually paid around a dollar a half for hospitalization, and they paid the company doctor about a dollar and a half. So if you had to go to the hospital they took you down there, but after they did that, why, I can remember people being at home after they'd put their cast on with their broken legs and so on, and they had to stay at home in the bed, and the families had to take care of 'em.

J: So they really had no income at all at that point?

WA: No, uh uh. No, when they couldn't work, they didn't have any income. There was just what the people helped them and the... then the company store companies had a policy of where they would allow uh... a person a dollar a day for uh... in the company store to buy groceries and necessities and so on. Things were a lot cheaper then though, you got to remember, and so they... they didn't do well on a dollar a day, they could make it on that. And the companies would carry 'em. And also in '33, from '33 on up 'til oh... on up 'til the end of the... I'd say into the forties. These coal companies, even if the miners called a strike, you know, they didn't have any strike benefits, and... and you didn't qualify for unemployment compensation. These companies would allow these miners a dollar a day in the company store.

J: Even during a strike?

WA: Even during strike. Now some of them would and some of them wouldn't. Some of 'em would cut 'em completely off. But some companies would uh... Souvereign(?) up here and N and W Fuel Department would do that and some of the... I don't know they... they just thought more of their people. People that worked a long time for 'em, and they didn't want to see them go hungry or anything, and so they... they would... they would allow 'em that and their company store to buy their groceries with.

WA: ... help you do that. Red Jacket would uh...

J: Red Jacket would carry people on the... in the company store?

WA: Yeah, yeah, they would carry people in the company store. Several companies would er... very few that would cut them off completely. But then after they went back to work, most of 'em you know, they would... they would pay that back, they would hold it on their payroll, you know. Th... still wouldn't allow them so much script 'til they got that paid, you know.

J: When uh... when did strip mining get started around here?

WA: During World War II, uh... strip mines started up here at Thacker, Perigan and sons(?) I believe it was stripped all that. They started all that, and then after the war, strip mining came in with a lot of companies started strip mining, but then it... the coal market got bad, they couldn't sell this coal with so much moisture content in it 'til the strip mines dropped off. They just didn't have any market for strip coal, you know. And so, since then it's begin coming back now, it started coming back a lot in the sixties and seventies and now it's... but they've improved these blast forces you know, until it'll handle this high moisture coal, they just pulverized it, and blow it in there.

J: Has strip mining, do you think, had any impact on uh... flooding in this area?

WA: Oh... definitely, definitely, that strip mining they did at Thacker ruined Tug River, and some up at Glen Alum, and all through there, it's ruined Tug River. Yeah, it let's water run off so fast, and then that earlier strip mining they left this... they left this coal seam exposed and air cause oxidation on coal, and these rains washed that off into the river, and that poisons the river, kills fish and everything. And they didn't have any controls at all in that area of strip mining.

J: Did you ever fish as recreation in the river?

WA: Oh, tha... tha... that was... that was my recreation. Fishing and hunting, yeah, you can see, yeah, I used to catch Walleye in Williamson, out of Tug River, bass and so on, still catch some, it's coming back if... if uh... it really helped a lot now, they're making them build these sludge ponds and so on, they make 'em cover this exposed coal up, you know 'til it can't oxidize and th... they just really helped in Tug River a lot now. There's bass in Tug River, catfish, some game fish. It'd been a water stream(?) they don't stock it. But they stocked one up here on Dry Fork, it's... with some warm water fish, some bass, and crappie, and so on, and some of them washed down Tug River uh... Glen Alum, places where fish would come out up at Iaeger, you know. So you liable to run into occasional one of any kind.

J: So they are making a comeback now where as twenty years ago they weren't...

WA: That's right, they're coming back real strong, and the feed for 'em is too, the crawdads, and the heligrimites, and all feed in the river for bass and game fish is coming back. Now I haven't seen any Walleye or heard of any, but see I haven't fished none in... oh, the last four years, I guess. My son fishes, yeah, oh, they... they catch th... they usually turn bass loose, but... but uh... occasionally keep one of the larger ones.

J: What other kinds of things did you do for... for recreation when you were a kid now... now I know you mentioned you played... you played football?

WA: Oh yeah, we had in South Williamson where I grew up, we had uh... we had baseball, and all kinds of sports plus we had swimming in Tug River, you know, back then Tug River was very clean. Well, it wasn't           ________, it was above Williamson. At the time Williamson dropped raw sewage into Tug River.

J: Is that right? Now the coal camps used to have baseball teams, some of them.

WA: We had one in every mining town, and that... that was... and you... you would be surprised at the support they... those baseball teams got. I mean, Majestic had one, Freeburn, Stone, Coal Hill, Pond Creek, that was Red Robin, N and W Fuel Department always had baseball teams, and it was quite a bit of competition between them too, they... they really liked that baseball. Why I played baseball, too, you know, some.

J: Did you? For... where did you play?

WA: Well, I... I played there in South Williamson, you know. We... we didn't have any High School teams at that time, but we had many sand lot teams, we called 'em. And some of the companies even furnished their baseball teams uniforms. They'd have uniforms.

J: Now was that a form of uh... say the different coal camp and the different company teams, was that a friendly rivalry or was it a hostile rivalry?

WA: No, it was... it was a friendly rivalry, I mean, and the people just enjoyed, there wasn't no such thing as uh... as anybody fighting or get... not getting along and that. Uh... no it was just a friendly, and people enjoyed it a lot too. About all of 'em had a... had a baseball park. The N and W Fuel Department had one at the mouth of Pond Creek, Stone had one up there at Red Robins, and Majestic had a ball park up there at Sedar, so they... they travelled about. And then uh... these company promoted that baseball in fact, if you were a pretty good baseball player, they'd give you a job.

J: Is that right?

WA: So you could play on the baseball team, yeah.

J: Did they ever try people out, like say a couple of guys wanted a job, would they... would they try them out in the outfield or something to decide who got the job?

WA: No. No. They just... they... they'd just... they just knew them by seeing them play, you know, and some of 'em well, they got out of a job, why, they'd go up to Majestic and they'd give them a job so they could play on their baseball team. But you didn't have to... you didn't have to have a job to play on the baseball team, you could uh... if you just lived in the mining camp, you know, they didn't have, really have any eligibility rules or anything. But they didn't bring in... in any professional players or anything like that just to win, they didn't do anything like that, you know. But we had recreation halls in these mining towns they called 'em and they would have pool in there, you know, and... and a place to get drinks, a dance hall...

J: And these would be uh... operated by the companies?

WA: Yeah, hmm hmm. Yeah, I worked at that 'un at the N and W Fuel Department when I was uh... sixteen. I ran the poolroom and the dance hall, yeah.

J: Did the dance halls have uh... live music or did you have jute boxes and record players?

WA: No uh... like I said these uh... people would have their own bands and they played... played good music, too, especially... especially some of the Hungarians and so on, they brought that music here with them, you know, and then uh... th... the American people usually likes string music, like a violin, guitar, and a mandolin, you know. In fact, at ta... New Camp there's three Ellis' boys, all of 'em, one played the mandolin, one a guitar, one a violin. No, they had their Hungarian music and so on, so on, they had a band, they'd be from different localities, you know, but they'd come in and play there, dance all night man, had a good time. Yeah.

J: Did the uh... did the different ethnic groups tend to have their dances and parties separately or did occasionally everybody get together in the camp and have a big party?

WA: Uh... it was usually different groups, yeah, uh... you know the officials didn't associate too much with the workers, you know and like that. It was kind of a separation there. Except in some cases now, in some cases they'd be at those parties too, you know, where it is uh... more an outlying communities and not close to a town or something.

J: When you uh... went into the mines and then particularly when you joined the union, was there ever any tension between you and your dad? You being a Union man, and he being a Company man or was that just to be left at the work place?

WA: No. No, we... we... we never had any tension and uh... in fact my dad was a... a... he couldn't say anything you know, but he believed the Union was the best for the miners when it came in in '33, but he couldn't say that you know, and uh... him being a mine foreman, course the Union was always against him, you know. But uh... I was never uh... mistreated anyway Union because my father was a mining foreman, you know.

J: When uh... when Island Creek or excuse me... when Red Jacket sold to Island Creek uh... I guess in the mid-fifties, did that change things much?

WA: Oh... that... that really changed things for Red Jacket, at that time I was working for Island Creek Coal on Rock House Fork of Pigeon Creek above Delbarton and uh... Island Creek had high production mines and production was down at Red Jacket. And so they increased production a lot at Red Jacket plus any that uh... uh... seams that weren't making a good profit, Island Creek shut them down, they didn't mine them. And uh... these older companies wasted a lot of coal in this area uh... in there pillar work and so on, they didn't... they... they didn't mine it the way they do it today, some of the larger companies, they have one hundred per cent recovery or ninety per cent recovery. They did what they called "the honeycomb method". It was particularly popular with Island Creek and just drive up these rooms wide and not leave enough support and then when they started to pull pillars, why it'd cover a lot of pillars up and so naturally that that coal source was lost forever you know when you do that. You can't go back in and get it.

J: Now when you... when you talk about pillar mining, does that mean cutting... cutting posts out of the coal itself?

WA: Yeah, what they... what they do... they... they... they usually drive up about uh... five entries in this solid block of coal, and then they turn what they call "rooms" off of it or entries. And they usually put a machine in that, and it has uh... what's called pillars between it. What... what a pillar is is just a block of coal to support the mountain, the overhead           ________ you know, 'til you get drove up, and then as you come back your supposed to recover this pillar coal or these blocks that you need. You see you have to put a block up and then, so far, and then you have to have your air coming along around that block to ventilate. And so that's... that's... that's the reason you can't drive up just solid block. You can't leave a solid block, you have to have cross entries for your ventilation, you follow me?

J: I don't have anymore specific questions. Is there anything you'd like to bring up that we haven't talked about? You know your life better than I know how to ask about it.

WA: Well, I uh... from what my parents told me, these mining companies uh... the people that came out of Virginia, I mean they lived out there on those poor farms and they were having it hard trying to raise enough food and so on. And they came in these ca... in these camps with good houses and all, they really liked that life, you know. Of course, I believe I told you that, eh... that's the reason they migrated into this area, my people anyhow. Of course, they later went back to their farms but... but back then you know they cut off a... wh... why... why... when you reached the age where you weren't producing too good, they cut you off. You didn't have any social security, you didn't have anything, and so you were really lucky if you had a little farm to go back to, you know.

J: Did a lot of the people after they moved from the farms and went into the mines, did they continue though to raise some of their own food, I know you mentioned people kept milk cows?

WA: Oh yeah, we... we always had a garden and raised food. My... my mother and... and they knew how to take care of food, and we never had a shortage of food because there's plenty of land around through here, you know, and you didn't have to pay anything on it if you wanted a garden. You just went out and cleaned you up a place for a garden and had you a garden. They especially wasn't many gardens 'til the depression came along, and then a lot of people had gardens that know'd how to do it, you know, and they... they'd can their food, and so on.

J: So they had gotten away from gardens, but then when the depression came they got back into it.

WA: Yeah, they got back into it, and the... the people were real lucky that had the know how that had migrated off of these farms, and so on, and knew how to raise food, they were real lucky. And my father and my mother hey... they both knew how to do it, you know. And they raised some wil... uh... they had some hogs, you know, and so on. They'd have their own meat and so on, salt cured.

J: How about uh... now you mentioned that you used to do a lot of fishing and hunting uh... did people pretty much, say back in the thirties, stick to the fish and game laws or did they try to find ways around that?

WA: Well, we real... we really didn't have any fish and game laws enforced, I mean. I... I can remember the first time I ever had to buy a license. I paid fifty cents for it.

J: When was that?

WA: I was in the thirties. I don't know why, I... I did have to buy a license though. Hunting and fishing license both cost a dollar. And that's the first I knew about it, and as far as the game laws uh... well, in these mining... mining towns up and down this river, they would go together and buy a seinge(?) and on Sunday they would... they would get out and seinge(?) a hole of water, you know, and catch a lot of fish, and if they did everybody in the mining camp would have some fresh fish. When they went together on these seinges(?).

J: Did you ever have a big fish fry, community?

WA: Naw.

J: People would take them back home and... and cook them.

WA: Yeah, they took them back home and cooked them, I don't remember having that, any of them.

J: So, so the fishing regulations were later on then? Later in the thirties and forties?

WA: Yeah, a later on, and fish migrated up the stream in the spring. And they'd get out there and gig a lot of fish too with gigs.           ________, you know.

J: Now is gigging, do people gig fish at nighttime or daytime?

WA: Well, they'd gig in the day or the night either one. If they gigged them at night they had to have a light. They usually made a light out of... out of a torch you know. Made a torch with some coil in it, you know, and had that torch. And then these old carbide lights were good to gig with. They used carbide lights on their head and gigged too. That's what we used for mining coal was a carbide lights.

J: Now these are... are these the lights you are talking about with the carbide flame or with the flame in them?

WA: Yeah, hmm hmm. Yeah.

J: Up until when did you still use uh... use those?

WA: Well, I used them up to nineteen and thirty-six when Souvereign started mechanized equipment, they got some battery lamps, but the Union wouldn't let their Union members use those battery lights, and course, I wanted to use the battery light because I started on mechanized equipment with a lot of dust, a light was bad for the carbide light but they said no, and so I didn't get to use one for awhile, and then they later changed their mind, you know.

J: Why did the Union not want to use the... the battery lights first?

WA: I don't know they... if you wanted to use a battery light or something, they'd call you a sucker something, you know, so you just said well, rather use my carbide light.

J: A suck, you mean like you're a wimp or something like that?

WA: Yeah, a company man, you know, wanted to be a wh... that was a name that went around, they called them a suck           ________ a kin to the management, you know, doing what they wanted to do, and so on. That was a saying in the Union, you know, Company Suck, that's all you are... a Company Suck. You got that damn battery light on your head. (laughter)

J: So if anybody wanted to get at you, they could call you a Company Suck and that was...

WA: Yeah, oh yeah.

J: This might have been before your time, this is my last question and I'll let you off the hook here. Doe... you always used to hear about miners taking canary birds down into the mines to check the levels of gas, now... was any... was that still going on when you first went to work in the mines? Did that...

WA: No. No. That was... that was passed...

J: ... it was earlier?

WA: ... by that time they... they... they'd brought out that flame safety lamp, like the one hanging up there, that used uh... Napa(?) gas to detect gas. And also, it will go out in bad air where it doesn't have any air. And Black Damp is not anything other than bad air without oxygen in it. And so that's what canaries were used for, and uh... I just... if air didn't have enough oxygen in it, the canary just fall over, you know. Now canaries wouldn't detect gas unless it was a tremendous amount of gas to displace oxygen, that's the only way canaries could detect it. They had to use these flame safety lamps.

J: I see.

WA: And in the earlier days, my father's told me about it, these guys used carbide lights in the mines and open flame lights, and they would burn this gas out. Set it on fire.

J: That's how they'd get rid of it?

WA: Yeah, but they didn't have the dust to go with it. You see, uh... in a blasting, when you raise this dust, and then if you got... if... if there's any... any gas, and anything ignites, you have this tremendous explosion, you know, from this gas and dust.

J: So it's the mixture?

WA: It's the mixture that really makes a big explosion.

J: So the dangers of explosions were more after mechanization?

WA: Oh, after mechanization, yeah. All the dust to make enough... mechanization made created a tremendous hazard. Explosions, lungs, and everything.

J: Did you all wear any kind of respirators in the mines when you were working?

WA: No, they... they didn't want... they didn't want to furnish respirators. Ah... I remember one time when uh... it wh... we're having to cut a band of rock, and uh... so, Sherman Hicks was helping me on a cutter, and so uh... to shear this coal, I had to have Sherman up there to see about it and so we went to the... we went to the mine foreman and told him we wanted a respirator 'til we got through that band of rock, you know, and uh... Howard gave us one and he told us, " I don't want you guys saying anything about this". Said, "Everybody here will be wanting a respirator." You know? And they...really didn't need 'em and we just needed them cutting through that bed of rock, you know. Yeah... I th... I thought it might help some, you know. That's how I got lung damage, you know. Mechanized equipment.

J: Did... do underground miners use respirators now? Or are they provided?

WA: Well, I... I really couldn't... couldn't answer that. I know that miners don't like 'em because it restricts their breathing, but uh...

J: Almost suffocating in a way?

WA: Yeah, but now... the larger companies have improved this air so much, and also this new equipment, they have this... they have uh... tremendous vacuum that picks up this dust and expels it through a tube, you know, or water and wet it down, 'til these miners don't even have the dust we had on cutters. And miners don't do anything but cut the coal out, it's not blasted. For cutters, we used to cut it and then it would be blasted, you know. Reason I know about ventilation and so on, you know, I have papers for mine foreman and so on. Well, it was just something I decided I wanted, you know, and I went and made those. I know about gas and all that, you know. Well, see the average miner didn't know about those things, you know.

J: So you just compiled this information for your own... for your own use?

WA: For my own... for my own use, yeah. Well, I... I fire bossed, you know, some form. But a fire boss could still belong to the Union, and of course, I was interested in my pension, and in my health benefits card, and so on, and so on. I wouldn't do anything but fire boss.

J: And what is... what's the role of a fire boss?

WA: Well, he inspects... he inspects the mines before the miners come to work all the time. He goes in and he checks for any... any safety hazards. And he checks each place for gas, and he checks the ventilation. He has a little ventilation meter in a case, and he checks the ventilation, how much air is coming through, and so on, you know. And any... any safety hazard he sees, he has to write on that fire boss report, and then he has to sign that, and then the foreman has to look the fire boss report over before the men go into that section, you know.

J: Then, did the fire boss work singly or with... in teams of say another fire boss?

WA: By yourself, single. Of course I... I worked at uh... I worked as a electrician and repairman, and then I... this mine was a small mine, the last work I did, and I fire bossed that mine and they paid me ten hours a day. That was two hours overtime, too, and that was seven days a week, and usually on Sunday, I didn't have to work but four hours, I could make that mine in four hours, you know. So I got paid for seven days a week.

J: Does a fire boss go in before every shift?

WA: Yeah, oh yeah. It has to be fire bossed before every shift. Now if a shift uh... say they would be working three shifts, and the foreman's there. He would fire boss that place after his shift ended, before the next one come on. So that foreman coming on, could bring his crew on and go right on to work.

WA: ... John L. came out, was a fore... was a foreman union, and my father joined that, and the companies were really opposed to that. He and uh... Henry Ratliff were kind of leaders in that, and John L. when... when he traded that for benefits, this foremans' union dropped it for something else he wanted for the miners, why my father and Henry was qualified for the miners' pension when they got old enough. At that time, I think it was sixty-two. But then my father died, but Henry got his miners' pension.

J: How long did that foremans' union last? I never... never heard...

WA: Ah... It went on for... for two or three years there when... when they were fighting for it, a few of 'em, but man they had such a fight, the companies were so opposed to that, they didn't want a foremans' union in no way.

J: How popular was it? Did most of the foreman join up eventually?

WA: Well, we... I... I would say about uh... maybe twenty-five per cent of 'em joined, the rest of 'em were afraid to join because they were fired. They fired my dad over it.

J: Over the foremans' union?

WA: Yeah, but they later... they put him back to work, and he... he got sick and died with lung trouble and pneumonia.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection