Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Melvin Triolo Interview

John Hennen: Sound check on mike one, narrator's microphone. Sound check on mike two, interviewer's microphone. This is John Hennen for the Matewan Development Center Oral History Project, its July 27, 1989, approximately 2:00 p.m. I'm preparing to do an oral history interview with Melvin Triolo. And his office is in Logan, West Virginia.

J: Mr. Triolo, just to get started with some biographical information here, would you please tell me when and where you were born and your complete name please?

Melvin Triolo: My name is Melvin Triolo and I was born at Wilkinson, West Virginia. Wilkinson is located about 3 miles up Island Creek; here in Logan County.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And, I resided in here all my life.

J: What year were you born and what day?

MT: January 19, 1914.

J: Okay. Did you have brothers and sisters?

MT: Yes.

J: What size family did you come from?

MT: Well, my dad had in our family...they was seven children... four boys and three girls and my mother and father; nine all together.

J: Okay. What kind of work were your parents involved in?

MT: My father was a coal miner.

J: Okay. I assume your mother ran the household then, is that correct?

MT: Yes.

J: Were your parents native Americans, native born Americans or immigrants?

MT: No. They immigrated from Southern Italy. From (unintelligible), Italy. My dad came here about 1901. When he arrived in this country he and my cousin they went to work, went to work in Buffalo, New York. When they got there on Ellis Island they talked to Italian feller there, (as) to whereabouts would be a good place to go to work. And, at that time, we was developing Buffalo into a steel center.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And they went up there and got 'em a job laying street car line for .25 cents a day.

J: Was he employed by the private street car line at that point?

MT: He was employed by the City of Buffalo, him and my cousin Mo (?).

J: Whose public transportation...city...city street car line.

MT: Right. That was...he was there when they...when they had the Pan-American Exposition. Willie McKinley got there, he was there in the crowd when Willie McKinley (McTilley) was assassinated.

J: Is that a fact, did he ever...

MT: ...he got shot, he died about three days later.

J: Uh-huh. Did your father...was your father aware of what was going on at that point did he see...

MT: He told me that McKinley was gettin' off the train. He had... this fellow walked up to him had a hand all bandaged up and he went to shake hands with McKinley and shot him. And they took him to the hospital and he died about three days...I think he lived about three days after he was shot. And, in the meantime, while he was there, see my bro...my dad had a brother that was over at Vivian in McDowell County workin' in the mines, his only brother. In the meantime, while they was in Buffalo, he got word that his brother was injured in the coal mine or seriously injured. So he and my cousin caught the train and came down to Kimball. And got on the train...Vivian is the next town above Kimball.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And, of course, when they got down there my uncle that was... what had happened, he was injured when he was...went to the powdered magazine to get his powder to go inside the mines...

J: Right.

MT: ...back at that time they used oil lights.

J: Right.

MT: ...and some that hot wax fell in that powder magazine and blowed up on him and burn him up. And he died in the hospital he was dead and buried when my dad and my cousin got down here.

J: So, they didn't get to see him when they came down.

MT: No, he was buried there at Kimball. And then, while they were there, they learned about these new coal fields in Logan being developed. So, they decide after they got things settled down there they'd come over here and see if they couldn't get a job. And when they got...they only...as far as they could get from Kimball on N & W was to Dingess.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: That's the last train stopped there.

J: That's in Mingo County.

MT: In Mingo County. And they had to walk from Dingess to Logan. And when they got here...they was nothin' but a wilderness here back at that time, about nineteen and three. And uh...they got a job with the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway. They were building the C&O depot down here where the...the city hall, the City of Logan, is located.

J: Yeah.

MT: And they finished buildin' that depot and then they continued to work with the Chesapeake and Ohio Land Railroad about toward Holden and Island Creek.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: When they got to Monitor junction they...the railroad put on another crew and it went towards Holden and the crew my dad and my cousin worked on went on up Island Creek. And when they got up there at Wilkison...beyond Wilkison...uh...they was some people from uh...Pottsville, Pennsylvania put in a coal mine there they call it the Monitor Coal and Coke and Robertson was one of the principal owners of it. And they quit the railroad went to workin' the the mines there. And my mother...her and my cousin...this cousin...they came over from Italy in 1913 and my dad and my mother was married in the...by the county clerk at that time Preacher Green McNealey.

J: Did the wedding take place in Wilkison or...

MT: No, it was in the courthouse. And he married her then and then later on my dad started havin' a family.

J: So, your father had been in this country about ten or twelve years before he got married didn't he?

MT: Right.

J: And how long had your mother been in the country?

MT: That's the first time, when she came here.

J: In 1913.

MT: Right.

J: Approximately what ages were your mom and dad when they married?

MT: Well, I don't know. My dad was uh...my mother was about sixteen or seventeen years old.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: See my cousin that came over here with my dad he went back to Italy and married his wife over in Italy.

J: And then did he remain in Italy?

MT: No, he came back. And my mother...my dad went over and got engaged to my mother then they came back here and that's the... they came back here. And of course, he had...my cousin he had his wife already. And my dad got married here. And they lived up at Monitor. What they call the post office address is Wilkison, but everybody calls it Monitor, number three Monitor.

J: What was your mothers maiden name?

MT: Azaria.

J: How do you spell that?

MT: A.Z.A.R.I.A.

J: Okay. No, go ahead.

MT: Her name was Mary Azaria, that was her maiden name.

J: Did your father have a trade before he came to the United States?

MT: Have a what.

J: Did he have a trade before he came to the United States? What was his occupation in Italy?

MT: Oh, he didn't have any occupation he was a young fellow about twenty years old they left home to...seekin' work.

J: Yeah. Okay. Did he continue to work in the coal mines then?

MT: He worked all his life in the coal mines, never worked outside the county after he got here.

J: And what were some of the companies that the worked for?

MT: He work for the old Monitor Coal and Coke Company was the first company he worked for. And then during the Blair Mountain altercations, he and my...me and my brothers and my mother he, took us to Kimball and we stayed there for about two weeks until this thing was over with on Blair Mountain he didn't want to get involved in it.

J: So, you stayed in Kimball then for about two weeks you said?

MT: Right. Then when they came back, he got a job at No. 11 Island Creek Coal Company at Monaville, he went to work 'ere. He and my cousin both, they left Monitor Coal and Coal at the same time. And they lived next door to one another at Monaville.

J: Now you mentioned that your father didn't want to get involved in the Blair Mountain controversy. Was he under any kind of pressure from either his company or the unions to get involved?

MT: No, no, no, no. They was people volunteered to go up to Blair Mountain and the company ask people to go up 'ere.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And uh...I know we was living there just a couple of doors from a tipple boss 'ere at Monitor, fellow by the name of John Muncy. He went up there uh...the company ask him to go up 'ere ...and he had seven or eight children...and he went up there and he was one of 'em that was killed there.

J: I see. Were there ever any prosecutions for the any of the killings at Blair Mountain?

MT: The only prosecution that was in the killings was William Blizzard whom I worked for about 18 years.

J: Bill Blizzard did you say?

MT: That's right, William Blizzard, Bill Blizzard. Bill was indicted for the murder of those three people that was killed on Blair Mountain.

J: I see.

MT: They was only three people killed there. One of 'em was John Muncy, the other one was John Gore, who was a deputy for Don Chafin, and the third fellow that was killed 'ere was J.W. Swanner, S,W,A,N,N,E,R. Swanner was a foreman for the old D. and H. Pritchard Coal Company at Ethel, at the foot of Blair Mountain.

J: Now, to your knowledge were these men killed in general firing or was it deliberate, deliberate shootings?

MT: See, Bill Blizzard was charged with leadin' the miners from Marmet to Blair.

J: Right. They used to call him the general didn't they.

MT: And these fellows was killed up 'ere and they arrested Bill Blizzard and they kept him in jail, in the Logan County Jail, for a good while. See Bill, at that time, was a representative of the union...

J: Right.

MT: ...on Cabin Creek and he told me this story, this is all second handed story.

J: Right.

MT: He told me and I read a whole lot of the transcript of the record and his trials. See, Bill was tried three times. Let's see, they got a change of venue from Logan to Fayettsville, when they tried him murder, for these three fellows. That...Fayettsville, West Virginia in Fayett County.

J: Right.

MT: And they had a hung jury there. Then they transferred the case to Lewisburg where he was uh...tried the second time for murder and they had a hung jury there.

J: Was he charged with all three of these killings?

MT: Yes, he was charged with all three of murders. See, at that time, Bill was about 19 years old.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And when they had him in jail over here they had a canvas that covered his cell and they charged...he told me this...they charged .25 cents a person to look...go in and see him.

J: Is that right!

MT: Yeah.

J: Now would this have been Sheriff Chafin that was charging them?

MT: Well the jailers...the jailers at that time. They were all Don's people. And uh...he...it's a wonder they hadn't killed him when they had him in jail. I don't know how he got out of there without being killed. Well, in the meantime, while he was in jail he told me this story, and it's a fact. The jailer had two sons that was...operated the jail over there Freelin and Oscar White. And they brought some young boy in there about 15 years old and I don't know which one shot him and killed him. But anyway he was shot and when he...after one of the brothers that picked this boy up by the heels of his feet...

J: Yeah.

MT: ...and dragged him in front of Bill's cell and threatened him, tellin' him that what was gonna happen to him if he didn't start talkin'. And Bill told me that story. And I believe what he told me. So, then after they got that trial from Lewisburg they transferred it to Charles Town, West Virginia, were Aaron Brown was tried for treason.

J: Right.

MT: And when the case got up 'ere they indicted Bill for treason. Up until that point, they was no one ever tried for treason in this country, outside of Bill Blizzard. Bill told me that the union didn't have much money and they employed a fellow by the name of T.C. Townsend as his attorney. I knew Mr. Townsend, he was a brilliant criminal lawyer. He never went to law school. He got his education in the Magistrate's Courts over 'ere in Fayette County, he was originally from Fayette County. And he come up... what he did...when Bill was transferred...see they figured they break Bill's neck up in Charles Town. That's all strictly farmin' area they wudn't a coal mine in 125 miles of that place.

J: Now you say break his neck, you mean figuratively speaking?

MT: Hang him, hang him.

J: Okay, hang him for treason then.

MT: That's right.

J: Okay.

MT: That was a felony in this state at that time.

J: Right.

MT: So, Mr. Townsend came up with a scheme. He hired about 30 people as salesman. In the meantime, he got...he ordered a bunch ...I don't remember how many hundreds copies of the Bible. And these fellows went up 'ere about six months before the trial...and uh...and uh...what the hell, in Jefferson County that county's in Jefferson County. And they combed all them farms. They'd go to them farm houses sellin' bibles. In the meantime, they're, they're ...what they were to do is go in and tell...represent these Bible companies. They were selling bibles to get a chance to sit down and talk to the people.

J: Right.

MT: And then they turned right around...he...they turned right around and these salesman would tell 'em that they was down here in Logan County, about how mean Don Chafin was, that they he wouldn't let 'em come in here to sell bibles, and they just had a rough time. What they was doing is convertin' those farmers. Some of 'em they knew was gonna be picked on the jury. Just to show 'em what a lawless county Logan was.

J: So they're pulling a little PR (public relations) job then.

MT: That's right, and it worked. So when they tried Bill...he ...they tried him by a jury there in Jefferson County, he was freed, turned scott loose. The trial lasted for about four weeks. I don't know, he used to have the transcript of his trial up there. It was four big volumes, each volume was about that thick.

J: That was my next question, do you happen to know if there any of those transcripts around?

MT: Well, I expect his son probably got those transcripts of that trial. The young Bill Blizzard and uh...but I don't know where his son is. And uh...because I tried to reach him...tried to locate him here about three or four months ago. He was over at Beckley workin' for the Post Harold Newspaper. He was a sort of...that's the field that he graduated from West Virginia University, that he followed.

J: Right.

MT: Because I's tryin' to get a couple of letters that I... Bill showed me that I read. See I'm writin' a book on John Lewis myself...

J: Is that right.

MT: ...and on the history of the United Mine Workers' bringin' it up to the present date.

J: Great.

MT: I just about got it finished. And uh...I read these letters. One of 'em was on Bill's death bed. See Bill thought as much of me as he did his only son. He only had the one son and one daughter. And uh...course that's a long story. It's about John Lewis, the way John Lewis treated him. And Bill told me if he had his life to live over again...and they was another fellow with me when he was we read them letters both of us read 'em... that he would never do what he did for the United Mine Workers' the way Mr. Lewis treated him.

J: This is Bill Blizzard telling you that?

MT: Yeah, when they got rid of him...when they got rid of him.

J: What...I don't want to delve...you know...pry into your own research, but generally what were the circumstances in that?

MT: Huh?

J: Generally what were the circumstances in their split or of Lewis squeezing out Bill Blizzard is that what happened?

MT: Yel, it was uh...see Mr. Lew...that's a long story.

J: Yeah, like I said I don't want to pry into your own research, but uh...

MT: That's uh...what happened there, Bill when he was president of District 17 the time, Raymond Lewis, Mr. Lewis put his brother in, Raymond Lewis in as secretary/treasurer. And Bill...the policy ...the district over there was in Charleston...that the secretary/ treasurer would get the mail and disassemble it throughout the different offices. And he would open all the union mail out and take it to each office. In Bill's case, Raymond's opened up his personal mail. And Bill went down and told him that he didn't want his personal mail opened when he got personal letters...now he didn't give a damn about the union mail, he could open all that he wanted... but his personal mail he didn't want 'em to open it up, that was his job. Well, about a week later the Legislator was going on up to Legislator, and Bill went up that morning...he always stayed around the Legislator when ever it was in session. That morning Mrs. Waldo, who was Raymond Lewis's secretary, went upstairs to Bill Blizzard's office and she had a letter that she wanted Bill to sign before she would give it...leave it with Bill or his secretary. Bill wudn't 'ere and his secretary told her that he wudn't there. She'd have to come back and see him. And the secretary refused to sign the letter. She said, "No, I'm...you'll have to get Mr. Blizzard to sign that, I'm not signing his name to that." So, she left and went back downstairs with the mail. Well, Bill never got to his office 'til the next morning. And in his office, at the time, was the vice president of the district, Charlie Payne, and the fellow that was in charge of the Kanawha Field Office, Jim Farley, and a Field Representative, Wirt Castle, and another field representative, (by the) name of Pete Chapman. So Raymond Lewis comes upstairs into Bill's office, walked in. Bill was discussing something with these fellows...some contract matters or something...and Raymond walked over and handed him this letter. And he had his glasses off and his sleeves rolled up no coat on and told...handed Bill that letter. Bill read the letter. And when he saw what the substance of the letter was he was receiving his mail and his personal mail had not been bothered. and Bill handed him the letter back and told him said Raymond I don't have to sign nothing to get my personal mail and he said I want my personal mail. Well Raymond had his personal mail and he said, "Your not gonna get it 'til you sign that letter". And Bill said, "Well I'm not signing it." He said, "I'm gonna get my mail". One word brought on another then Raymond called him a Son-of-a-Bitch. And anybody that knew Bill Blizzard, (knew that) Bill Blizzard would fight a circle saw.

J: Laughing.

MT: And he hit him right between the eyes and knocked him down. And he bloodied like a stuck hog. None of these other fellows that was settin' there made any attempt to get Bill off of him.

J: Laughing.

MT: Bill just worked him over good. In fact, he beat him up so bad that Bill's secretary fainted in the office there. So the next day, the Charleston Gazette had a headline about a certain Labor leader sportin' two big black eyes.

J: Yeah, and that was Raymond Lewis then.

MT: That's right John L's youngest brother.

J: About what year was this?

MT: Well, I don't know, let's see. I do know to, it was in 1955.

J: Oh, '55, that late uh?

MT: Yeah, it was in '55.

J: Wow!

MT: Because I quit the Mine Workers' union in Jan...in November of '55. And it happened before that. It happened sometime in January in '55. So after that happened see, all the district offices, the president, the secretary/treasurer and the members of the International Executive Board in each district, they were ...they had commissions. The International Union issued commissions each year on their appointment to what office they have. In other words, in March...in April, yeah, in April...at the end of ...before the end of April, the International Offices had to send in their old commission and they would renew a new one and send 'em a new one, appoint 'em for another year. Well, in the meantime, sometime in February, I guess it was, Bill was ordered to report to Mr. Lewis. And he went up there and saw Mr. Lewis. Mr. Lewis told him said, "Now Bill, I got you up here," he said, "You know they's not a labor leader in this country that has the labor record that you...was established during your life time." And he said, "You worked hard all your life. I'm not goin' to renew your commission on the first day of May."

MT: "That we'll pay you $400 dollars a month, your pension." So he said, "I want to know whether your gonna to accept that or not?" Bill started to tell him about his and Raymond's troubles.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: Mr. Lewis responded, said, "I don't want to hear a Goddamn thing about that." Just like that. Well, Bill then realized that if he didn't accept to retire at $400 dollars a month, Mr. Lewis would send him to Missouri or...that's the way he operated. These fellows he wanted to get rid of, he sent 'em to these areas where they was no coal mines. And wouldn't let 'em come back to see their family. They eventually have to quit to come back home.

J: Right.

MT: And Bill knew that.

J: So, he'd send 'em out there to do field work where there was no work to do.

MT: Bill knew how he operated.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: (He'd) been around Mr. Lewis all his life, he knew how he operated. So, Bill went on ahead and told him he would go ahead and except that. He would accept that he would accept that $400 dollars a month. In the meantime, he must of had a desk wired up because after he said he would accept that, in walks Mrs. Covington, that was John L's secretary. She set down 'ere with her stenographic book and pen and Mr. Lewis told him to dictate his retirement. Well, Bill went on ahead and dictated the letter to Mrs. Covington and thought no more about it. So Bill, the next day, he left Washington and come to Charleston. And he...uh in the meantime, I got a letter from Mr. Lewis to report to his office on this certain day and for me not to say anything to anyone to my whereabouts.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And I reported up 'ere, went out on Monday morning. I went up on Sunday, flew up 'ere, standin' 'ere at the Capital Hilton Hotel. And at 9:00 at Monday morning I was over in Mr. Lewis's office. Mrs. Covington said to me, said, "Mr. Triolo," said, "Mr. Lewis doesn't normally come in here to about 9:30 or 10:00 o'clock." Said, "Why don't you go back over to the hotel at your room and soon as he comes in I'll call you, then come on in then." See Capitol Hilton was right across the street; a block from Mine Workers' Office. I said, "Okay." To make a long story short, this is a long story I'm tellin' you about.

J: (Laughs)

MT: I was suppost to have been the fire head boy that succeeded Bill as president of District 17. He uh...see I was up 'ere practically four or five days.

J: Were you vice president or secretary?

MT: I was in charge of this office the United Mine Workers'. In this same building on the third floor.

J: Okay.

MT: I was the chief field representative and uh...he told me that he was gonna he wanted me carry on the duties of the district president and that after the first of May that he was gonna appoint me the district president down here. And uh...in the meantime, he ask me about Gover...how well I knew Governor Marland. I said, "I know him real well." And he said, "Well." He picked up the telephone and called the governor. And then when he talked to Bill Marland he said, Now, he ask him if he knew me and he said, "Why yes, I know Melvin. And I know him very well." Well, he said, "He's gonna be my man down there in District 17 and anything that comes up that involves United Mine Workers' there in Southern West Virginia he'll be my spokesman. He'll have full authority to act in my place...in my place. So, I want to know when can you see him?" The Governor said, "Well, when's he coming back from Washington?" And Mr. Lewis ask me. I said, "My plans are to leave in the morning." He said, "What time will you get down 'ere?" I said, "Well, my plane gets into Kanawha Airport about 12:00, 11:30, 11 or 11:30." I don't remember when it was. It was before noon, I know that. Well, he told Marland that. And Marland told him that, well, said, "You have him to wait 'ere and when he gets in there I'll have this..." What was Ferguson's real...first name...black man, he'd was valet for five or six governor's. I knew him real well as Ferguson. He was right 'ere at the airport waitin' on me. And he picked me up and took me down to the mansion. And the governor and I had lunch 'ere. And of course uh...he was surprised he wanted to know, said, "What happened to Bill that your gonna take his place." And I said, "Well," I told him the same story that I said hear about Raymond Lewis. He said, "My God," he said, "I hate that" said, "I worked with Bill, he worked so good. But he said, "I'm not gonna say nothin' about this, but I'll work with you. Whenever you need (me), you let me know." So that's the way it went on. When I was up there he, Mr. Lewis, painted a glowing picture of my activities down here. What a good administrator I was, I kept my work up to date and all that. Won the coal operator down here in the Logan area. I don't owe Mine Workers' one nickel. And wrote me out. And uh...so when I went to the post office on the first day of May they was a letter in 'ere for to all the fieldmen, and one to me. I had four fellows that was workin' under me here in this office. And the letter...the contents of that letter was that effective May first, that Raymond Lewis, the Secretary/Treasurer of District 17, was being elevated to the position of president of District 17, effective May the first.

J: The first you'd heard of this.

MT: ...and bespoke (?) said I bespeak your coal operation in carrying it out the contents of this letter, that's signed John L. Lewis. Well I knew that blood was thicker than water. I didn't say a damn thing. I didn't like it, but that was the story on that. But uh...so I had a very good friend of mine that was inducted into the Shriner's Lodge and the Masonic Lodge in Charleston. And Raymond Lewis was tendin' that Schiener's...he was bein' inducted that same night. And he knew me and he was a very close friend of mine. And he'd seen in the paper a day or two before he went over there that Raymond Lewis had been the new president of 17. So when he was over 'ere somebody introduced him to Raymond. Well naturally, what this friend of mine said, he said, "Well," said, "congratulation Mr. Lewis," he said, "one of my closest friends is Mel Triolo over at Logan."

J: Uh-huh.

MT: He was a lawyer, he was from Logan here, he's still livin'. He's around, he's in Charleston, a hell of a good lawyer. One of the best, he's retired right now. He's been with the Jackson-Kelly for years.

J: What's the name?

MT: I didn't say what his name was.

J: Oh, okay. (Laughing)

MT: But I know him real well. And I have a reason for not saying his name. And so when he said that...this fellow went to tell him about me. Raymond interrupted and said, "Yeah," said, "I know Mel real well." Said, "He's got a damn empire of his own over there and I'm gonna tear it down for him." Well this friend of mine knew that he'd said the wrong thing to Raymond.

J: Yeah.

MT: So he didn't say any more to him. So late that night this friend of mine came back home, here at Logan. And about 11:30 he called me at home. He said, "Mel, where do you have your breakfast in the morning?" I said, "Well, I generally eat at the Smokehouse every mornin'." He said, "What time do you generally eat down 'ere?" I said, "About 8:00 o'clock ten or fifteen minutes after 8:00." He said, "Well," said, "how about havin' breakfast with me down 'ere tomorrow I want to talk to you." Said, "I'll meet ya down 'ere." I said, "Okay." So, the next morning I was...I beat him down here. He came in and set down and we set down in the back by ourselves. And he said, "Well let me ask you something, what kind of a shape are your records up 'ere in your office." I said, "I can put my finger on anything I've ever done up 'ere, on any decision I've ever made.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: I said, "Why?" "Well, I got a reason for asking you questions." And he said, "You say you can defend anything you've ever done up 'ere." I said, "Yes sir, in front of anybody. I don't have any anything to hide." Then he said, "You know, I'm a mason and I'm not...took...went into the Shriner's lodge. And I'm not suppost to tell about what went on. You've always been fair to me. You've always dealt honestly with me and I've got a lot of respect for you." But he said...he told me what Raymond, him and Raymond Lewis ...the night before, what had happened. And now, he said, "Now, I...it's against...I said...I vowed that I won't say nothing about another mason, but," he said, "this is just between you and I." I said, "Now, okay, that's the way it is." And I told him, I said, "Now you just uh...my records are clean. Anybody wants to come and look at 'em, I've got 'em available for 'em." Well, he said, "I'm glad to hear that." We went on ahead with our breakfast and that was the end of it, our conversation. So, I made up my mind then, when this friend of mine told me what was goin' on, that I wudn't gonna take anything from anybody. I didn't give a damn who they were.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: Whether I held the job down or resigned. See I was about 40 years old then.

J: Right.

MT: I figured I could leave the Mine Workers', I'd learned enough that I didn't have to depend on them by-God for a job. So the next thing I knew...I had girl that was workin' for me, the secretary, Mrs. Kelly. She'd got cut off in the Charleston office. Her husband was uh...sold used cars over there. And her dad was on the county commission over there. And they...in 1952 when the lull in the coal industry, they had several people that was cut off in the offices over there, field people. And these people were cut off and told were told and when they...the district...was able to support 'em they would be called back and given their jobs back. In the meantime, I had my vacancy. My secretary had gotten married and moved to Columbus. And I told Bill I's gonna have to somebody over here. And he said, "How about you takin' one of these girls over here." And I said, "Well, who am I gonna have to take?" He said, "You know we put the oldest ones back first." I said, "Well, that's alright with me." So he said, "How about Lillian Kelly?" I said, "That's good." She'd come over, got her a place to stay over here and was my secretary for a couple of months. And she'd go home on the weekends. I let her go home on the weekends...and she'd come back on Monday. So, this particular Monday, she didn't come back. I waited 'til Tuesday she didn't show up. She never called or anything. Well, I thought that was unusual, so I called Lillian home that night. I said, "Lillian," I said, "are you comin' back to work here?" She said, "No," said, "haven't you been told?" I said, "No, told what?" She said, "I'm workin' down 'ere in the district office now." Said, "Mr. Lewis sent Bob Hutchison down to my house and told me to report to the Charleston office and for me to give Bob Hutchison the keys to the Logan office." Well, Bob Hutchison was a black man. In fact, I put Bob Hutchison to work over 'ere in Charleston. And he was a good friend of mine. So I knew that from what this friend of mine had told me in the smokehouse that the jig was up. So, I waited a couple of days. I was gettin' behind on my correspondence, nobody showed up 'ere. And I called Raymond Lewis, I said, "Raymond, I'm gettin' behind on my reports and on my correspondence. You want me to hire somebody for this office as secretary, or what are you gonna do?" He said, "You'll have a secretary tomorrow morning. (being a) Smart aleck.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: I said, "Okay." So, I told the other fellows that was workin' for me downstairs I wanted 'em to be...whoever brought the secretary in...I wanted 'em to be around, in my office. So the next morning Bob Hutchison came down and had a...with him was a black woman, she was about six foot tall. And you know that's a hell of a tall woman.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: She was black as a chunk of coal. Bob got in and we shook hands. And he walked over...just like your settin' there...and had the keys to the office. He said, "Now, Mrs. Baker, this is the keys to the office. You'll work here for Mr. Triolo and your salary will be...to start off with...what it'll be and uh... you'll get two weeks vacation. See, I knew that Raymond Lewis and a fellow by the name of Humphryes, his right hand man over 'ere, had lined Bob up. Because, if this friend of mine hadn't told me what he did in the smokehouse, I'd threw that black Son-of-a-Bitch out of that third floor when he come in 'ere shakin' them damn keys in my face.

J: Yeah. But you knew he was being put up to it?

MT: I knew he was put up to it. And that's what they wanted me to do is knock the hell out of 'im so they can fire me. I knew that, so I just went on ahead and accepted it. Boy it's a bitter pill, but I accept it. And I never had a black person to work for me before. And I guess they thought, 'well, we'll put that black person over there and he won't put up with her, he'll run her off, cause her to quit.' But I went on ahead and worked with her for about 2 or 3 weeks. Well, when that didn't work for Mr. Lewis, Raymond Lewis I'm talkin' about.

J: Right.

MT: In the meantime, I'd written, sent a couple of telegrams to John L....which I have in my possession now, that whole record... askin' for an audience with him. I wanted to know what in the hell happened to me from February to May. All that crap he was dishin' out to me. Well, he'd respond by answerin'...writin' me a letter and said he was preoccupied with some conferences and at this time he didn't have the time to meet me and whatever problem I had on my mind to take it up with the District President, Raymond Lewis. I wrote him back and told 'em that the nature of my business was such that I couldn't discuss it with Mr. Lewis, Raymond Lewis. Well, that went on from May until October. The...let's see, the later part of October. Finally I got a letter from him tellin' me...instructin' me...this is John L....to go and... Raymond Lewis was the district president, District 17 and whatever matters I had on my mind to discuss it 'em with him. And if Raymond would recommend that I have an audience with him, he'd give me an audience. So when I got that letter, I went over to Charleston and saw Raymond Lewis. And he wanted to know what I was doin' over there. I said, "I come over to see you." I said, "I want you to...you got a copy of Mr. Lewis's letter where he said that if you recommended an audience for me that he would go along with it, he'd give it to me. And I want to know whether your gonna do that or not?" He said, "Well," he said, "what are you gonna talk to him about?" I said, "About the situation here in District 17, that's what I'm gonna talk to him about. And tell him what a damn big liar you are. And tell him the only damn time I ever got a wage cut in my life is when the United Mine Workers give it to me when you cut my wages after you became president of District 17." Well, I got on him so hot and heavy he agreed to go ahead. He said, "Okay, I'll right him a letter this evenin' and I recommend that he give you an audience. And I'll send you a copy of the letter. Lo and behold, the next day when I went to the post office I got a copy of his letter and that Son-of-a-bitch recommended...he wrote to Mr. Lewis and said, "I discussed it with Representative Triolo yesterday the nature of his business, on the basis of what we discussed, I feel that no audience should be granted." After tellin' me he would go ahead and give it to me!

J: Right.

MT: So, in the mean...when I got 'ere that burnt me up. I sent Mr. Lewis another telegram. I said, "Mr. Lewis, I've been employed by the United Mine Workers for 18 years." On October first made me 18 years in their employment. "You've had me two or three times up in Washington to discuss business of the union with you, at your request, three or four times. And I said, "Since I've been employed for 18 years, I've never ask you for an audience. I think I'm entitled to one audience. And I want to know whether your gonna give it to me or not." I got a telegram from him that next morning stating that he would see me at 9:00 o'clock on the next...the following Monday. So I went up 'ere. When I went up 'ere, I told him what I wanted to know. I told him about givin' me all this cockin' bull story about puttin' in Bill Blizzard's place, having me go down and get with the governor and have lunch with him. And he called me about ever day from February 'til around the last week in May, Mr. Lewis did. And I'd bring him up to date on what was goin' on, but after he sent that letter that was the end of it. Well, he wouldn't give me the answer. And then he said to me, said, "Well are you gonna do about this?" I said, "Mr. Lewis, I'm 40 years old and I've learned enough workin' for the United Mine Workers, the 18 years I been with 'em, and I can go out...I may not be makin' the money I'm makin' now...but I said, by-God I'll make enough that I can eat on. I said I don't have anybody but myself and it won't take much for me to do it. In the meantime, he had Tom Kennedy to come down in the office. And he told Tom, said, "Tom." He wanted to know what I was gonna do. I said, "Well" I said, "if you'll transfer me I'll take any damn transfer any place you want to send me, but I won't work in District 17." And he called Tom...had Tom...to come down, Tom was on the second floor, his office was...right off from Mr. Lewis. And he said, "Tom, I'm sendin' this young man back to Charleston see if you can put some damn sense in his head." And uh...he didn't want me to quit see. So Tom took...got up...took me back into his office. And he told Tom to keep me there for a couple of days and take me out to the game...ballgame, which he did. And, so while we was in Tom's office Tom said to me...Tom was International Vice President...he said, "Well" he said, "I would suggest you go on ahead and go back dowm [sic] to District 17 and do your work and hang on down 'ere one of these days said it will work out." He said, "You know, I'm the vice president of the National Union. And I was convinced...he didn't tell me this...I was convinced by him having you up here that you was gonna take Blizzard's place." But he said, "You know that I'm the vice president of the National Union, he's never even consulted with me" said, "the worst word" or "the first word about puttin' Raymond Lewis down 'ere." And he said, "You know I'm to old a man to start questionin' his rules now." I said, "I understand that Mr. Kennedy, I wouldn't want you to do that in my behalf." He said, "What ya gonna do?" I said, "When I get to Charleston I'm goin' to that office and I'm gonna have 'em to pay me off, I'm resigning. And that's what I did. This is all the way from what your in here (for)...

J: Oh, no, no, this is fascinating, this...

MT: They's a lot more to that story than that.

J: Now this uh...this practice the Lewis was going through, purging, basically purging District 17, I suppose, now did he do this in other districts as well? Was this standard uh...

MT: No, that's the way he operated.

J: So is it safe to say that he would have considered you a loyalist to Blizzard and he wanted to get rid of you for that reason?

MT: No, I don't think it was that. I think it just come to the point where blood was thicker than water. He knew...Raymond has told him that he would never work for me down there...that he'd never work for me down here in District 17.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: I believe that's what the whole story was. See, reason I said they's a whole lot more to this story, see at the time this happened, I was the oldest person in point of service, that was on the payroll in District 17. And when I went to work for the United Mine Workers, I come right out of the mines and went to work for 'em. And Raymond knew this, and John L. knew this. Raymond had never worked in the mines.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: He's never worked in the mines. And the constitution of the United Mine Workers' provided that before a man could work for the International or District Organization, he had have at least 5 years of mining experience. And he's never had that. But who in the hell's goin' question John Lewis makin' him president of District 17. Nobody would've questioned it, which they didn't.

J: Is that provision of the Constitution of the UMW still in effect, to your knowledge?

MT: I don't know whether it is or not. It was up until uh...I believe it is still in there.

J: Well then, backtracking some, you say you first went to work for the Union in 1937.

MT: Right.

J: But, you had worked in the mines at least five years before that, is that correct?

MT: That's right.

J: When did you go into the mines?

MT: I went to work in 19...during the depression with my father... I was 15 years old, at Monville. And when I went to work for the district was in 1937. No, first day of October 1938.

J: When did union recognition finally became wide (spread)...was it about 1935?

MT: In 1933.

J: 1933.

MT: In the fall of '33.

J: With the pac...with the National Recovery Act? Is that when the...

MT: That's right. After the National Industrial Recovery Act was passed, Mr. Lewis sent organizers throughout the coal fields and organize a miners coal industry overnight.

J: Uh-huh. And then even though the NRA was overturned the Wagner Act was passed.

MT: In the meantime, that was a year and a half later.

J: Right.

MT: When the supreme court declared the NRA unconstitutional. That fellow from the Stetsor Poultry Company out of Maryland 'ere that contested the NRA.

J: Uh-huh.

J: Had you begun your career with the UMWA as a field representative yourself.

MT: Yes.

J: Okay.

MT: I was workin' in the mines...at the Ross Moore Mine in the West Virginia Coal and Coke when I went to work for the United Mine Workers.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: I was financial secretary of local union; check weighman. I weighed the coal for the miners.

J: What local is that?

MT: Well, that was 5812 in Rossmore, at that time.

J: And when did you begin your affiliation then with Bill Blizzard?

MT: When I began my affiliation with Bill Blizzard? On October the first 1938.

J: Okay.

MT: He was vice president of the district at the time under Van A. Bentler(?) Van A. Bentler was the president of District 17. In fact, he made the recommendation to Bentler when a fellow by the name of Cassady was in charge of this office here. It was on the third floor in this building, we had three offices downstairs. And uh...Cassady took me over there and we went to Blizzard's office. At that time, the (United) Mine Workers' Office (was) located on Summer Street...and Blizzard's office was on the second floor and Bentler's was on the third. So after we got over there we went to Blizzard's office and Bill Blizzard took us up to the third floor and got me acquainted with Van Bentler. And Van told me said, "Well" said, "young man" he said, "all I can promise you the Mine Workers' job is seven days a week." Mine Workers' representative job is seven days a week and 24 hours a day. "Only thing I can promise you is sum'in (something) happens to you, I promise you that you'll have a damn good funeral." That's what Bentler told me when he gave me the damn job.

J: I'll be darn.

MT: He was tough.

J: Now, a field representative...from what I gather...it takes a pretty rare type of personality or particular make-up, I mean, for that kind of that kinda dedication or that kinda?

MT: Well, you have to have a lot of patience. And you have to have uh...know how to get along with people without gettin' into a row (fight) with 'em and gettin' in trouble with 'em. Sometimes your encounter arguments with some of these guys. Back at that time it was a rough damn job. Because half of the...more than half the miners that work in the coal mines during that period were illiterate.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And you had to go way around to convince a damn guy. You couldn't just come right out and say now uh...Mr. Hennen you're wrong on that you can't do that. You couldn't do that. Hell he'd apt to knock the hell out of ya. You just had to use your patience and work your way around to it where you could convince a guy that he was wrong without hurtin' his feelings. And it was uh...it was uh...it was a tough job.

J: Did you deal...as a field representative...did you deal primarily with officers from local...from the locals or with the rank and file?

MT: Yes, I dealt with officers from the local union and the rank and file. That was my job.

J: And of course you had to deal with coal operators as well?

MT: That's right.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: But, the coal operator's wudn't so hard to deal with.

J: Were the contracts, at that time, strictly a year to year basis or were they multi-year by that time?

MT: Oh no, no, that was multi-year about two years, not over three, at that time. I never remember Mr. Lewis ever makin' a contract for more than three years.

J: Was uh...was Charlie Kiser still a representative with District 17 at that time?

MT: Yes.

J: He was?

MT: Yes.

J: Did...

MT: In fact, he was one...that was one of my troubles, was with him.

J: Who Charlie Kiser?

MT: Right.

J: He's pretty prominent, has emerged as a pretty prominent figure down around Matewan. Was he difficult to work with?

MT: Why, he was no damn good.

J: Is that right.

MT: Why, no I wouldn't trust him any farther than I could see him. See what happened to me...after they brought that black woman in 'ere as my secretary...

J: ...then one day I was called into Charleston. And when I got over there uh...the present...Blizzard's former secretary was still the secretary there, Mrs. Burk...and I got in 'ere I was ordered to report to Raymond Lewis in his office 'ere at 1:00 o'clock. He still used Mrs. Burk as his secretary. So I got over 'ere about 10 or 15 minutes before 1:00. Went up stairs, and Mrs. Burk was 'ere. And she said to me said, "What are you doing over here today?" I said, "Well, I don't know." I said, "Raymond Lewis wrote me a letter and ordered me to report here to him at 1:00 o'clock." She said, "You know Mr. Kiser's been here all morning in a conference with him?" With Charlie Neal and Raymond Lewis." I said, "No, I didn't know that." So in the...said, "They're out for lunch and Charlie's with 'em and Raymond said he'd be back at 1:00 o'clock." (That's) What Mrs. Burke said. So I just set down 'ere and waited on 'em. So they come in we went in to Raymond's office and uh... up until that moment, I've always was known as Mel, Raymond called me Mel for all the time he worked in District 17. And uh... so, I became Mr. Triolo when our discussion started. He said, "Mr. Triolo..."

J: This is Raymond talkin'.

MT: That's right. "Mr. Triolo, effective the first of the month..."...which was two or three days later..."I'm transferring you to Williamson. I'm puttin' Charlie Kiser in charge of the Logan and Williamson office. Charlie Kiser has got to much work over there for him to do. And I want you to work directly under him and do as he instructs and help him get his work straightened out." I said, "Raymond, let me tell you something, what in the hell are you trying to tell me?" I said, "I've got over 12 thousand coal miners to service in Logan and Wyoming County. I got 78 local unions in Logan, in the Logan field, Charlie Kiser has got about 6 or 8 thousand miners over there and he's got about 30 local unions. I got three times more damn work than he's got and I've only got three people to work here with me and he's got three people to work over there." I said, "Don't come telling me that damn crap about how much work he's got over there."

J: You say you had 78 locals in this county?

MT: That's right! In Logan and Wyoming County. Copperson, it was all in District 17. It was worked out of the Logan office. And, at that time, we had over 12 thousand miners in this district.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And I told him I said, "Don't come givin' me that damn crap." And him and Charlie Neal and Charlie Kiser settin' 'ere when I told him that. And he didn't like that. He said, "Well, what are you gonna do about it?" I said, "Well, Raymond..." see I had the benefit of knowing what this friend of mine had told me in the smokehouse.

J: Right.

MT: I already had my mind made up. I said, "Well as long as I work for the United Mine Workers' I'll carry out their instructions and when I cease to work for the United Mine Workers I'll do what Mel wants done." Well, he said, "Then Mr. Triolo"... all kept callin' me Mr. figurin' that I'd haul off and knock the hell out of him. "Well, Mr. Triolo, effective the first of the month your salary be cut $100 dollars." He said, "What are you gonna do about that?" I said, "Raymond I told you awhile ago, that as long as I work the United Mine Workers' of America I would carry out their instructions.

J: So this was that one wage cut that you referred to a little bit earlier.

MT: Yel, that's right! So that went on. And then.........after I told him that, one word brought on another, I got mad and I uh...me and Raymond got into it. And uh...I told Raymond, I said, "You keep tellin' me how much Charlie Kiser's got" I said, "I don't have a nonunion mine in the Logan district." I said, Charlie's got two or three over 'ere in his district. One that's a good size mine on Wolfe Creek..."

J: Uh-huh.

MT: ...owned by a fellow by the name of Webb." And I said, "You tellin' me he's got a hell of a lot more work than I got to do?" Well, one word brought on another. They started talkin' loud. I said, "I'll take either one of you'uns if you want to go, down here in the damn lawn. And I believe I can whip either one of you'uns, By-God, one at a time. I'll take you all three or one at a time." I said, "By-God you don't have guts enough to come downstairs and talk to me like this." But anyway, I went to Williamson the next, day like he said.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: But, if I'd been a younger fellow...hadn't had the background of what this friend of mine had told me...I'd never went over there see.

J: Yeah.

MT: So, I've been around long enough to know how the Mine Workers' operated. So, of the morning I'd go to Williamson. I'd be there at the office, By-God, when Julia Smith, she's Jolly Smith's wife. You know Jolly Smith?

J: No. I've heard that name.

MT: Why, he's the chief police 'ere in Williamson now.

J: Oh okay, yeah.

MT: She was the secretary to Charlie. And Julia had come and opened up the office. She'd ask me what I was doin' over there that morning. I told I'd been assign to work over 'ere. And she despised Charlie Kiser. He had Gus Allison with him, fellow that work with him Charlie. And then Charlie come in, he had Gus 'ere. He said, "Now your job is gonna be to organize Wolf Creek Colleries" That's old man Webb's mines, up on Wolfe Creek. You know where Wolfe Creek is?

J: Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

MT: And he said, "I want you to go up 'ere and stay there 'til you get 'im organized." "Well" I said, "is any of the local officers at some of these other locals live around 'ere that I go and contact and have 'em give me some help?" And he'd give me the president of the local union at 28 Island Creek over at Ragland and 24. And I went up and saw 'em. But before I went up 'ere... I'm gettin' a little ahead of my story...I knew a fellow 'at was uh... president of the local union 'ere at uh.......wudn't Naugatuck ....what the hell's the name of that place.

J: Lenore.

MT: No, it's 'fore you get into Williamson. 'At you go down and across the railroad tracks and you cross that bridge to go over in Kentucky, what's the name of that town? You know where I'm talkin' about?

J: Uh...not Belfry.

MT: No, your talkin' about going towards Kentucky, towards Pikeville. I'm talkin' about goin' to uh...Hatfield Kentucky.

J: Oh, no. I don't...

MT: Cross that bridge 'ere at uh...right out of Williamson 'ere they's uh...name of that town. What's first, second town above Williamson towards Huntington?

J: Going towards Huntington...

MT: The mine was across the river on Kentucky side. It was operated by the same people that operated the mines up at uh...Rita oh, what in the world is their name.

J: I'm lost on that one...

MT: But, anyways they was a service station on the right of the road. In the back of that service station was this fellow Marcum he was president of the local union. And I knew him. Him and his wife lived in back of the that service station, their house. And the mine had shut down and he wudn't workin'. So I went over, I knew him, I stopped at his house...his wife. He said, "What are you doin' over here?" I said, "Well they sent me over here to work, to help Charlie Kiser organize Webb on Wolfe Creek." And uh...I said, "You doin' anything?" He said, "No" said, "I ain't done a thing since they shut the mine down. We call him Mont. I said, "Mont, I tell ya what I want you to do. You got a good pistol?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "What kind of pistol you got?" He went in and got it. He had a 45, showed it to me, all loaded up. I said, "I tell ya what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna stop by here and pick you up, if you'll go along with me, and I'll pay you $10 dollars a day just to ride in the front seat of the car with me, with that gun." And I said, "I don't what you to let anybody lay a damn hand on me, over here on Wolfe's Creek." He said, "I'll do it." Said, "You stop pick me up in the morning." So everyday I'd go over there, I'd pick him up. And then of the evening, when I dropped him off at home, I'd give 'im the $10 dollars. So, I went to these presidents (of the) local unions...and if Marcum was livin' today he'd tell ya the same thing, he's dead now...and these fellows both wouldn't even let me come in their yard. They was president of Island Creek's local unions.

J: What...why would they not let you come in there?

MT: Ahh, they was afraid of me. They didn't want them to know that they was part of tryin' to organize Webb. You see, Webb had had a brother that killed somebody over there, that they'd hung in the State of Kentucky about 3 or 4 months before I went over there. And them Webbs suppose to be pretty tough characters. That's the reason I was gettin' Mont to go over there with me. So anyway, I went up through there, for about a week. One day Webb was settin' 'ere on the porch with his wife, at lunch time. And I pulled over on the side of the road. I said, "Mont, I'm going in here to talk to Mr. Webb." "Oh," said, "don't go in 'ere" said, "you gonna cause me to have to shoot 'im."

J: (Laughing)

MT: I said, "No, I'm not gonna do that, now" I said, "You just set right here and watch me." I said, "I'm not gonna say anything to that man that's gonna make him mad, in anyway. If he starts cussin' or anything, I'll just turn around and come on back and get in the car. I'm not gonna say anything to 'im that's gonna make him jump on me. You just keep your eye on him." Said, "Okay." So I got out the car and went over and set down on the steps. And him and wife was in the swing. And I said, "Mr. Webb" I said, "I'm ...my name is Melvin Triolo." And I said, "I'm organizin' over here for the United Mine Workers'." He said, "I already know all about you Mr. Triolo. The first trip you made up here I got your license number." And he said, "All I want you to do, I don't want you to bother my men during workin' hours." See the mines was right back of his house.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: He said, "As long as you talk to 'em when their off of duty, whenever you want to talk to 'em you go ahead and do it, but don't bother 'em at all on my property." Then he said to me, said, "Charlie Kiser and Ransom Kirk is all time sendin' me word, 'they've got a mule train comin' up here to get me.'"

J: A mule train.

MT: Mule train, that's what he called it. What he meant by that is, they's gonna have a gang of men come up 'ere and beat the hell out of him. He says, I's just waitin' here on Mr. Kiser and Mr. uh...uh...what I'd say his name was?

J: Kirk.

MT: Who?

J: Kirk, is that who you said?

MT: No, no, not Ransom Kirk the other guy...Gus Allison, Gus Allison. Kirk was a decent fellow. And uh...but them other two wudn't worth a damn. He said, "Now they're not coming up here." He said, now he said, "I'm not puttin' up with any mule trains. And if you're that type of person, your organizin' mule train to get me," he said, "I'm tellin' ya right now, you'll never see the day to live that you're gonna get a mule train with me." I said, "Now, Mr. Webb, I come up here to talk to you just like I want you to talked...talk to you just like you want to be talked to. And I wanna to be talked to the same way." I said, "I'm not up here to organize any damn mule trains. I'm not gonna bother Mr. Webb in any shape, form or fashion." I said, "now they's advantages and disadvantages belong to the union. And if I can't convince you by talkin' to ya then..." He said, "well you all...(did) you tell me you work for the United Mine Workers?"

J: (Laughing)

MT: I said, "yes." He said, "I've never heard tell of a man being as nice as you are Mr. Triolo." And he said, "I sure am glad I met your acquaintance." Said, "this is a new wrinkle on me." He said, "I'm a union man, to begin with." Said, "I worked at Red Jacket before I started my own mine. I was a union man down 'ere. But they's no nobody gonna threaten me with a gang." And he said, "I'd like to pay the union wages and have a contract. But I've got...I want to show you something." Said, "Come on in, I wanna take you in the house here and show ya."

J: Was this man's name Jakens Webb by any chance?

MT: Who.

J: Was his first name Jakens by any chance?

MT: I don't know what his first name was. Webb was his second name.

J: Okay, go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt.

MT: I never did know what his first name was and I never tried to find out. 'Cause he's a damn decent fellow. And he took me from... him and wife...we went from one room to the other. And old Marcum didn't know what to do out 'ere in the car. Whether to come on in the house with his gun after me. But anyway, he showed me...and the house all through out his house liked about 2 inches of that big flood they had over there in "54" 53 or 54 gotten almost to the top of his house, in all his rooms. And filled his mine full of water. Destroyed all his machinery and his home. And he said, "I owe the bank down here at Kermit $45,000 dollars" and he said, "they's no way I could ever sign a union contract and pay off 'at down 'ere." "Now" he said, "you go ahead and do what you wanna do. As long as you do it right, you'll have no trouble with me." So I did. And ever now and then I'd stop and talk to him. And never say nothing out the way to him. And treated me royally. So then went down to uh...at Warfield on the Kentucky side there at Kermit. They was a fellow by the name of Coleman run a mine down 'ere. Had about 85 people workin' 'ere nonunion. And then on up the...when you come across the bridge 'ere at Kermit, they's a hollow almost directly opposite that bridge.

J: Okay.

MT: I went up that hollow. And I saw some coal trucks coming out of 'ere. And I went back to Kermit to see where they...these coal trucks that was loaded with coal go to. And they'd...you know on the lower end...I don't know...of Kermit 'ere on the lower end down there of Kermit going towards Huntington...

J: Uh-huh.

MT: theys uh...used to be a Persinger Supply yard there, I don't know if it's still there or not.

J: Yeah, I don't know.

MT: Okay, that Persinger Supply Yard they was a little ol' tipple that the trucks went up on this ramp and dumped the coal. And they's a fellow up in the tipple was dumpin' that coal in the railroad car. So I went up to where this fellow was that was dumpin' that coal. I ask him who owned them truck mines up 'ere, two or three truck mines up 'ere. And he told me a fellow by the name of Fred Shewey and a fellow...Dr. Coleman, who was the doctor there in Kermit.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: Well, at the time, I didn't know Fred Shewey. We later became good friends. We're still good friends. Fred still lives up there. And he lives in Florida in the winter time. Do you know him?

J: No, no, don't know him.

MT: Anyway, at that time, he was runnin' for the Board of Education in Mingo County, Fred was. So, the next morning...all their mines is all nonunion, they had about 25 people workin' for 'em Dr. Coleman, and Fred Shewey...I stopped by the district office 'ere in Williamson. And when Charlie didn't come in at 9:00 o'clock, I'd ask Julia about some of those companies owing money for the welfare and so forth. And she'd give me all that information see. I had all that information.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: (The) Number of local unions Charlie had to serve. So when Charlie come in...Gus Allison was settin' 'ere...I said, "Charlie you know Fred Shewey down at Kermit?" "Yes sir I know him! He's the best friend the United Mine Workers' ever got." (Deepens his voice real low) He said, "he's running for the Board of Education and we've endorsed him over here in Williamson. And where you can I want you to help him, get him elected." I said, "Okay, Charlie." I said, "what about Dr. Coleman down 'ere at Kermit you know him?" "Yes sir" You had to know Charlie to...that's the way he talked.

J: (Laughing) Yeah, I've heard that, I've heard that.

MT: Biggest damn blow George that ever was.

J: (Laughing)

M: "Yes sir, I know Dr. Coleman. He's the best union doctor that ever hit the coal fields!" I said, "Well, I'm glad to know that Charlie." He said, "what do ya wanna know about 'em" I said, "I want you to pick 'at telephone up, call Fred Shewey first, and tell him that I'm coming up to Kermit 'ere, I've got three copies of the contract that you want me to get 'em signed for you...have him sign 'em" "By-God, I didn't tell you to go up 'ere at Fred Shewey's mine! I told you to go to Wolfe's Creek!" I said, "My job is to organize wherever I can organize anybody Charlie." I said, "Now I want you to call Dr. Coleman and tell him the same thing. Their such friends of the United Mine Workers you shouldn't have any trouble gettin' these contracts signed." (He said) "By-God I told you to stay away from 'ere and I don't want you to uh...meddling around up 'ere!" I said, "Okay." So.......

J: Now why had he...why had he neglected to organize those areas?

MT: Well they didn't...they wouldn't organize. Them fellows had 'em workin' nonunion. Had those people...they wouldn't sign any cards.

J: But, did he then...did he just have a...why did he get along so well?

MT: I'll tell you. You want to know why? I'll tell ya, I couldn't prove this.

J: That's alright.

MT: The reason I know why they was workin' nonunion is because they was kickin' back to Charlie money.

J: I see. That's pretty much what I was suspecting.

MT: And he was a no good...I hope that God will sink me in heaven this minute if I'm not tellin' you the truth.

J: Yeah.

MT: Downstairs on the third floor, they was me and Red Cassady and Nelson Madey was workin' out that office. See Charlie...when the CIO was organized he was a workin' out that Logan office. They sent him to Midroe...Monroe Michigan in a steel...small steel plant...to organize steel plants.

J: Right.

MT: And he was up 'ere five or six years or more. And when Uncle Billy Thompson died, who was in charge of the Williamson office, they brought him back and put Charlie in charge of Williamson. (He was) Drivin' a big cadillac. And the people was...miners was raisin' hell about 'im. And when he came through from Detroit from Monroe Michigan, he stopped down in the office that night that evening, it was in the afternoon about 2:00 o'clock.

J: Okay.

MT: About 2:00 o'clock and he had on him a check for thirty (30) thousand dollars, a cashier's check. And he had about forty-five (45) thousand dollars in cash, in his pocket that he showed us. And we ask him, "Charlie, where did ya get all that damn money?" We was only makin' $300 dollars a month then. And I'm telling you what he told us, almost word for word. He claimed that he had a ticket on a baseball pool, that he won that $45,000 thousand dollars on (ticket). Is the reason why he carried it in cash, he didn't want to turn it in 'cause he'd have to pay taxes on it. He had $75,000 thousand dollars 'ere in money. And all three of us never had two (200) dollars in the damn bank up here in Logan. Because you couldn't save any money. And we all knew right then... we said it among ourselves, "that Son-of-a-Bitch has sold some of them workers out up 'ere. Them small steel companies is givin' him a pile of money. And By-God he's forgot about the workers."

J: So this was money he brought with him from Detroit?

MT: That's right, from Detroit.

J: Okay, Okay.

MT: And that's the reason why I never had any use for him all the time when he was back. So in the meantime, I was...one day I went in the office over there and Julia said, "Well" said, "Mr. Lewis called here yesterday evening and told me to tell you to report to the Charleston office tomorrow at 1:00 o'clock." I said, "Okay Julia, thank you." This is Jolly Smith's wife. I went over...I was over there at 1:00 o'clock. Here set Charlie Kiser, Charlie O'Neal and Raymond Lewis. In the meantime, I already had my mind up I was quittin' the United Mine Workers. I was trying to get this audience with Mr. Lewis.

J: Right.

MT: John L. Well, Raymond had a habit of pacin' the floor and throwin' up a coin and catchin' it in his hand, tryin' to look important.

J: (Laughing)

MT: And said, "Mr. Triolo" said, "you've been causin' us alot of trouble over there in the Mingo field." He said, "Charlie Kiser says the local unions are raisin' hell about you over there." I said, "What kind of trouble am I causin' over there." He said, "well, you're misleadin' the fellows, not doing your work, doin' what your suppost to do over there, organize Webb Coal Company." I said, "Raymond my job is to organize anybody I can." I said, "I didn't realize that the whole dawm half the Williamson field, by-God, is nonunion over there." "Well" he said, "we can't have that over there. And effective the fifteenth of the month, I'm assigning you down at Point Pleasant...."

J: They just didn't know what to do with you, did they?

MT: ...in Mason County. And organize them nonunion mines that's around the river down there." And said, "Your gonna have to make arrangements to find you a place to stay. We can't pay your travel expense backwards and forwards from down there to Logan." He said, "What are you gonna do about that?" I said, "Raymond, I've told you a number of times, as long as I'm on the Mine Workers' payroll I'll do what they tell me. When I go off of it that's when I'll do what I wanna do." So I left. But before I left, he said, "They was another thing" said, "the trouble you havin'" said, "you went down there in Hatfield Kentucky to handle...Charlie sent ya down there to handle the grievances with the management, Joe Ardigo, and you refuse to go with Joe." Joe Ardigo was the Coal Associations secretary. I said, "That's true, I refused to go with Joe Ardigo." Said, "Why did you refuse?" I said, "by-God, I don't go to a coal mines with the coal industries representative ridin' his damn car."

J: Yeah.

MT: I said, "I got better sense than that." And I said, "Them men told me when I got down there, 'it's the first time anybody ever come to their Hatfield Kentucky that didn't ride down there with Joe Ardigo on to handle grievances.' Charlie Kiser always rode down 'ere with 'im. And he was settin' 'ere. And I said, "by-God I'll never ride with any coal operator's car gonna down there to settle grievances." And I said, "Joe Ardigo didn't come because I didn't go over to his office and ride down there with him in the car." And I said...

J: So he never showed up at the grievance meeting then?

MT: No.

J: So he never showed up.

MT: No, but I was 'ere and I told the man I said I'm not ridin' down here with him. Hell with him. He don't sign my damn check. But that was uh...culmination of things and finally.

J: Right.

MT: In the meantime, I was always correspondin' or wirin' or something with Mr. Lewis to get this audience. I wanted to tell him what the situation was in Williamson. And what a situation Raymond was upholdin. So when I got to Washington I did tell him that. I just told the whole dam story just like I'm tellin' you. And I resigned on November the third.

J: 1955.

MT: That's right. It was effective when I come back from Washington. And stopped by the office. I made 'em pay me off. They paid up 'til the November the third. They paid me for three days in November. I didn't say anymore.

J: Then what did you do next?

MT: Well, about...in January about the second or third of January, I went to the post office and got a check paying me up 'til the first of the year, instead of December the third. They paid me up I don't know I guess Mr. Lewis in Washington must have been responsible for that. He's probably found out what they done and he's told 'em to pay 'til December 31. In the meantime, time I got home from that meeting in Charleston that I had with Raymond and Charlie Kiser and them and told 'em about these other places, nonunion, before I got home, by-God, they'd call my house, my mother and told her to tell me not to go to Mason County the fifteenth. To keep stayin' over 'ere in Williamson. See they's gonna put the shaft on me tellin' a bunch of lies 'ere that Charlie and 'em was tellin' him.

J: Yeah.

MT: So I never did go to Mason County. So that's the story on that.

J: Well.

MT: Now I've got I got the utmost respect for John Lewis, don't get me wrong.

J: That's funny, that was my next question. I was gonna to ask your assessment of John L. Lewis, in a nutshell?

MT: He was the most brilliant person I ever knew. Smart, and the most ruthless person I ever knew.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And he was highly intelligent. His wife educated him. He never half finished the eighth grade.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: Bt you'd never know that by talkin' with Mr. Lewis. Now they's not doubt in my mind and I'll always reverend him as been the most outstanding liberal leader that the world has ever known.

J: I was gonna say, was there ever any other labor leader approached him at all, in your estimation?

MT: Nobody would touch him. Nobody would touch him. He was smart and he really was looked after the miners rights. Wudn't anything he wouldn't do for the benefit of that miner. It's all together different today. And even though I had my problems with him and his brother...see his brother...I knew how he got into the union. Bill Blizzard told me, see. What happened when John Lewis...Raymond was sort of a bum and during the depression and after...a couple years after the depression...he didn't do nothing but ride railroad trains, hoboed all over the country.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: Never held a job any place. And when...in '34 things got... (when) Mr. Lewis organized all the coal fields he sent Danny (or Denny) Lewis, that was Raymond's brother and John L's right hand man, he's next to John L., John was the oldest, sent Danny Lewis down there to see Bill Blizzard. So Bill told me. He got down there and Danny told Bill said, "Bill, John sent me down here to see you, if you couldn't find something for Raymond to do here out the district office." Said, "Raymond has never worked and he's gettin' hard up, he needs a job." "Well" he said, "I don't know of anything here I got available right now." And then he said, "Well can't you...why don't you put him...he's pretty good with figures...and put him on as a auditor for District 17 and have him audit these local union books. "Well" Bill said, "Okay." He couldn't say nothing else. Because he would have went back and told John L. about it. So Bill told me, they put him on as district auditor. And the first books he audited was right here in the Logan field, up here at Omar, No. 5 local at Omar. It just a damn job, a joke. And he worked out of Charleston. See, in the meantime, he had married a woman from up in Sutton, in Braxton County. She still lives down in Florida. Raymond died here last fall he was about 88 years old. He'd had a couple of strokes. But uh...so he worked as an auditor about eight (8)...about two (2) years. Next thing we knew, we got a letter from Mr. Lewis that Uncle Billy Thompson had died; he was the secretary of treasurer over there, who was in charge of Williamson field. And he designated Raymond...R. O. Lewis...as the secretary/treasurer of District 17. Well before when he got that job as an auditor he had to become a member of the United Mine Worker. He had to have five years experience in the coal mine. Which he never worked in the coal mine. Never inside of one of 'em.

J: Right.

MT: So, Danny Lewis and Raymond and Bill Blizzard went up 'ere and got Herman Adkins, at Harewood. He was the president of the Simmon Sawmill, local union up 'ere, Herman was. And they got Herman to take Raymond in as a member and...that local union and the member of the United Mine Workers'. And then he turned right around and put Herman on as a Representative of District 50. That's how they operated. And he didn't have a damn bit more business of being takin' that guy in the local union cause he never worked around the mine. But Herman engineered all that and he got a good job out of it.

J: Yeah.

MT: And he was the biggest dam crook they ever had in District 50. Finally fired him, I think. He's dead now. But those are some of the things that went on. I could go on and on and on and on. I tell a lot of these things in my book.

J: Yeah, I'm lookin' forward to it. Is your...how far along are you in your book.

MT: Well, I'm just I'm waitin' on this thing to see what's gonna transpire of Pittston.

J: Uh-huh. So, your bringin' it right up to...right up to date.

MT: Oh yeah, up to date. It's uh...I don't think...I think Piston has already licked 'em (won). They'll never sign a contract.

J: That's....

MT: It will be nonunion.

J: That's my assessment too. I think they...

MT: And the Beckley Coal Company will be the same way in Beckley.

J: Would Piston have uh...would Pittston, you think, have even allowed a strike to transpire if they didn't think they could beat 'em? If they could beat this.

MT: Oh, well they knew it when they started out what they was gonna do. You see, they's a whole of lot of resentment in the coal industry. See, after I left the Mine Workers' Union I didn't do anything for about seven or eight months. And Governor Marland wanted to appoint me...at that time, he had a fellow by the name of, oh what was his name, from over at Welch, he was a lawyer, had resigned as his Workman's Compensation Commission in 1956. And he had me over there wantin' me to take that job. Of course the reason he wanted me over there, he was runnin'...Mel Furgerous was the administration man for Governor...and Marland was runnin' for the Senate.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And I was for Bob Mulahand for Governor. And Bob and I have been friends since 1934. And I turned him (Marland) down.

J: Was Mulahand in Congress at this time?

MT: Yeah. He was in Congress at the time.

J: Right. Okay.

MT: And he ran and got beat. Then in January he didn't run for reelection in the Congress cause the election was over cause he was runnin' for governor. And he was out and Arch Moore took his place. (Pause) What else do you want to know about the Matewan situation?

J: Oh, well this is uh...what you're telling me is what I need know. I'm just as interested in the coal economy in all Southern West Virginia as I am about Matewan. Unless...is there uh...something about Matewan that uh...

MT: Well, I know the history of Matewan. 'Cause Bill told it to me.

J: Bill Blizzard? Okay.

MT: He even showed me where those three fellows was killed there on Blair Mountain.

J: Oh yeah. Now, they were all killed at the same time?

MT: Yeah.

J: The three guys?

MT: At the same...there in the second curve going down Blair Mountain.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: That's the spot they was in when they got killed. And what happened, those three deputies...one deputy under Don the other two were deputized...they was going down towards Blair, they got down to that second curve and these miners that was coming up the hill to come towards Blair Mountain waved white flags so these three fellows thought they wanted to surrender. And when those miners got up to 'em, hell they shot all three of 'em and killed 'em. Bill told me that. But see, they was only three people killed in that Blair Mountain war. They claimed it was a war.

J [sic]: Yeah. They was only three people came (killed) 'ere. See, the Blair Mountain march actually was...what started the Blair Mountain march from Marmet was the fact that Greenway Hatfield, who was the sheriff of McDowell County, and was the first cousin of Sid Hatfield, who was the Chief of Police there at Matewan. See when that Massacre happened there at the railroad station when No. 3 train came in that afternoon. See Sid Hatfield had that set up. And Bill was of the opinion, I'm talkin' about Bill Blizzard. But Bill...the reason he had that set up was to shoot..they's Baldwin-Felts people...was because he was a goin' with Mayor Testerman's wife. And Bill was always of the opinion, up until his dying days, told me that Sid Hatfield was the one that killed Mayor Testerman.

J: Uh-huh. Yeah. You do hear that from some people.

MT: Huh.

J: You do hear that.

MT: Bill Blizzard was involved in that whole thing now.

J: Was he in town that day?

MT: Who, Blizzard?

J: Yeah.

MT: No, he never was over there. He never got any farther than Blair Mountain. When these three people was killed and they had him up for murder they was gonna tryin' him here in Logan they got a change of venue from Logan to Fayettsville, just like I said.

J: Now at the time that was going on uh...

MT: See that was all...what happened, the union was under contract with the operator's over there. At that time, the Red Jacket Coal Company was the largest coal company in the Mingo district. And they were under contract with the United Mine Workers. And in 1921 they decided they was gonna go nonunion. They wudn't sign another contract. Up until that point they was under contract over there. Well, when they decided to go nonunion, put up their notices. Red Jacket started evictin' the miners and out of their homes over there. They went to livin' in tents.

J: Yep.

MT: And uh...uh...of course Baldwin-Felts detectives, Tom Felts, told Sid Hatfield and Mayor Testerman that he was sendin' a bunch of his detectives over there on No. 3 train, would get in there and they would evict those miners. And when the train rolled in there they was several of those Baldwin-Felt Detectives was killed over there and two of 'em was Tom Felts brothers. And Mayor Testerman was killed. And they was a fellow by the name of...what was his name, he was a miner.

J: Mullens.

MT: Is that what his name was? I don't remember what...Blizzard told me that story. Well in the meantime, after this happened, Judge Bailey, R. D. Bailey, who was the Circuit Judge over there at that time, Mingo and Wyoming County was in the same circuit.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And Judge Bailey ran in Wyoming. And he was the Circuit Judge. Well, some kind of deal that he worked out with Blizzard. Blizzard hated his guts. Said he sold the miners out over there. But anyway, when this all was done, they...he worked out some kind of a deal with Greenway Hatfield, who was the sheriff of McDowell County. And uh...that Greenway Hatfield would guaranteed 'em protection if they let the case come over and be tried in McDowell. The murder case. Sid Hatfield and what was Chamber's first name?

J: Ed.

MT: Ed Chambers. If they would agree, he would guaranteed 'em they would be protected. Now Bill told me they left Williamson on the train that afternoon and got into Welch that evening. And when they got into Welch...I don't know whether you remember if you're familiar with where the old Carter Hotel is now.

J: I've not been to Welch. I've just seen photographs.

MT: Well, right across the street from the old Carter Hotel was the Lincoln Hotel. At that time, the Lincoln Hotel was the hotel in Welch.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: And they stayed there and their attorney for the United Mine Workers, what was his name. He was from down St. Albans.

J: I was gonna ask you about him. Now there was one Harold Houston. But this is not Harold. Is this Harold Houston?

MT: That's right, he's the one. He lived down St. Albans. He was the attorney that was with 'em. And they had their wives. They got off the train and went down and checked in the hotel and stayed there that night. The next morning about 8:30...they was to be in court at 9:00 o'clock. Ed Chambers and his wife. In the meantime, about two weeks after Testerman was killed Sid Hatfield married his widow.

J: Yeah.

MT: Well, she was with him. They was going up the steps up 'ere at the McDowell County Court House. And down on the street, right opposite the Court House, they's uh...what they call the McBride Herd Chrysler Garage. Apartments upstairs over top of 'em. They were shot and killed, Sid Hatfield and Ed Chambers by 30/30 high powered rifle. Both of 'em killed 'ere on them steps. Houston wasn't hurt or anything or their wives wasn't. Well now that's what Bill told me infuriated...if that's not the proper word...the coal miners in the Cabin Creek District were under union. They didn't like it because they double crossed Ed Chambers and Sid Hatfield. And they was gonna march on to Williamson, but they didn't get any farther than Marmet the first time. And Governor Morgan or Governor Cornwell met 'em 'ere on the first trip and got 'em...see Bill Blizzard was only 19 years old when that happened. And he was president of the Sub District 2, I believe it was over there, in the Cabin Creek District. And Frank Kenney and Ed Mooney was the...Frank was the president of District 17 and Ed Mooney was Secretary/Treasurer. Well, they was the ones that cooked up this damn march. But when they marched on Marmet, Frank Kenney and Ed Mooney left town they went to Columbus Ohio and hid out. Well, Cornwell met 'em there and he talked 'em into going back. And then in the meantime, Morgan was elected governor, Governor Morgan. Well he come to Marmet and talked 'em into going back the second time. But the third time they decided they was gonna come on through. They had to come through Logan to get Williamson. So some of those fellows was sent to the pen. They even...over there they took charge of the passenger train.

J: Uh-huh.

MT: See it come up Coal River to Madison to Blair. And they hauled alot of those fellows that was marchin' on Blair Mountain they hauled 'em up 'ere in the train. They caught some of 'em. And they sent 'em to Moundsville.

J: Now there was uh...at the time that was happening, there was supposedly a story going around referring to Bill Blizzard as the general of this miners army. Was he like the overall field commander?

MT: Yeah, he was in charge of it. See, Frank Kenney and Fred Mooney put him up to it. He was a young man, 19 years old, and you know what a boy young fellow back in them days he's lookin' for something like that.

J: Yeah. Ready to go at it.

MT: And these guys took off and went to Columbus and hid out. That's the reason why John Lewis never did give them fellows a job.

J: Kenney and Mooney?

MT: Yeah.

J: What happened to Kenney, did he...?

MT: He died over 'ere in Charleston.

J: And Mooney ended up committin' suicide, didn't he?

MT: Well, yeah. See Fred Mooney was up in Wendall in northern West Virginia. He's superintendant in the mine up 'ere. Bill Blizzard told me this, when he was secretary/treasurer District 17 it was alleged that Fred Mooney killed his first wife. Over 'ere on Cabin Creek. He was sort of a flighty guy, Bill told me.

J: Yeah.

MT: Well, I used to...Fred Mooney had a brother that worked down here. I hired him down at Peach Creek for Chafin, Jones and Heatherman Coal Company, when I was personnel director for Jewell-Ridge Coal Company. He eviled (?) it. And Fred went up...he was superintendant in this mine for years, up at Wendall. So what happened, he'd married again and for some reason or other he'd wanted to get rid of his wife. He wired up house up 'ere at Wendall with dynamite that his wife was in and blowed the damn house up. But she got out of it, never bothered her.

J: This is his second wife?

MT: Yeah, and she knew what had happened...after this thing happened. He was tryin' to kill her. And when he come out the mines he found out that his wife hadn't been killed he shot himself and killed himself.

J: I see.

MT: Committed suicide.

J: That was up into the '50's sometime, I guess?

MT: Yeah. That was in the late 50's, up at Wendall, West Virginia. 'At's up 'ere near Fairmont.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection