Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Howard Harmon Interview

John Hennen: If you would, tell me your full name before we get started here?

Howard Harmon: Howard Harmon.

J: Mr. Harmon you mentioned the names of the three agents who shot Sid Hatfield and Ed Chambers? Now, we know that C.E. Lively was one of them. And, did you know the other two names also?

HH: Pense and uh...Slater, I believe.

J: Pense and Slater. Okay. Were they from around here to your knowledge?

HH: No, I don't think so.

J: You wouldn't happen to know their first name would you?

HH: No, not right off.

J: Now, most of the guys that were retained by the Baldwin-Felts were they retained on a job to job contractual basis or would they be hired for say as a career?

HH: Some of 'em were long term, you know, career people and others just, you know, short timers.

J: What was the story of their involvement in the courthouse shootings at Hillsville?

HH: Well, State of Virginia hired 'em to uh...to round up the Allens. And, took 'em about six months to get all of 'em, you know.

J: What had the Allens done?

HH: Well, they had a feud in the courthouse. They'd been, you know, been trouble a brewin' for several years between the court officials and Allens. And, they was trying Floyd Allen fer takin' the two nephews away from two deputy sheriff's. And, they give him a year in the penitentiary. And, that's when uh...he got up and said, "gentleman, I'm not a goin'."

J: This was in the courtroom he said this?

HH: Uh-huh. And, that's when the shootin' started. They shot the sheriff and the judge and the common wealth attorney and foreman of the jury and the witness. And, killed all them. And, then they wounded four or five more people.

J: So, the state went to Baldwin-Felts to track them down then?

HH: Back at that time, you know, they didn't have as much law as they got now, the FBI and all that. And, so, they's kinda like the coal operators and the railroad they had to turn to somethin' like Baldwin-Felts Detectives or some of the other detective agents. But, they got the Baldwin-Felts.

J: And, that's how Baldwin-Felts got started, I guess, protectin' railroad properties?

HH: They'd already been in business twenty-two years when this happened. That was one of their big cases, you know. And, that was a big story of the...well, about the biggest story of the century so far. You know, when you kill a judge and common wealth attorney and the sheriff, you know, that's never happen before or since in the United States. You just don't go in and kill all the court officials without a big story. (Laughing)

J: Did they ever determine for certain who started the shooting there? I know there's been some controversy.

HH: Well, Floyd Allen's...his lawyer, Judge Bowling was his attor ney at the trial, and he testified that uh...he was lookin' at Floyd's son Claude seen him fire the first shot, shoot the judge. And, Sidney Allen fired the second shot. And, then it all begin just shootin' in general.

J: When they finally tracked down the Allen gang were they all together or did they get 'em in different places?

HH: No, no, they got most of 'em here in Carroll County, about four or five of 'em. But, two of 'em Sidney and one of the Edward's boys, Wesley Edwards well, they...they stayed in the mountains for about a month and then they left. Slipped out and they eventually wound up in Demoins, Ioway (Desmois, Iowa). And, they'd been there, oh, about five months when the got caught. The Baldwin-Felts they put uh...they found out this Edward's boy had him a girlfriend and they...they planted one of their men at a farm next to where this girlfriend lived, probably to find out what they could. And, they found out about Wesley. He'd come back to see his girlfriend. And, they...this detective, I think he got pretty friendly with her folks and maybe her and all. They found out she was going to Ioway (Iowa) to marry this Edward's boy. So, Detective Lucas he was the one. And, all these uh...Mr. Baldwin and several detectives they's right behind him, you know and, her when she went to Iowa. When she walked into the boardin' house where Sidney and Wesley was staying, why, they just followed her right in. (They) arrested Sidney, he was there. Wesley was out a workin'. They found out where he was workin' for the city, I think. They waited till he got on a street car. That's where they found him. And, that's where they arrested him. Had a little, maybe, a little tussle with him. But, they loaded 'em up that night and brought 'em back to Roanoke.

J: Of the uh...a couple of the Allens were executed, weren't they?

HH: Uh-huh.

J: Which ones were they?

HH: Floyd and his...Floyd and his son Claude. Claude was twenty-two years old. And, Floyd I believe was fifty-six years old.

J: Of the Balwin-Felts Agents killed in Matewan in May 19, 1920, which of 'em was from uh...from the Galax area?

HH: Well, uh...Lee...Lee and Monroe. Then they had, oh, the chief of police, Hagens. And, they'd recruited uh...several more. They had some...you're talkin' about the short timers, you know, just hired 'em for this special occasion. Oh, about...somethin' like a half a dozen more from Galax. And, then they had one, another police chief, he was from Marion, he was with 'em.

J: What was his name?

HH: I don't recall his name right off.

J: You said Lee and Monroe, you meant Lee and Albert, right?

HH: Yeah, Lee and Albert.

J: And, of the agents who escaped from Matewan that day, were any of them from Galax? They made it back?

HH: Yeah, they were two or three of 'em. Andersons...two Andersons and I don't remember the other.

J: Who was the...who was the agent who hid in the barrel, that you heard about?

(Someone in background says, It was Lucas wasn't it.)

HH: No, no it wasn't Lucas. No, it don't believe it was.

J: And, then they were a couple of guys who swam the Tug River?

HH: Anderson. I believe they was two Andersons. One of 'em was wounded.

J: And, then one or two escaped on the train, isn't that right?

HH: Yeah. They got amongst the people that was in the depot, you know. They's probably some people in the depot waitin' for a train. Train was due in a few minutes, I believe. And, they got in amongst the crowd, which is a pretty good place for 'em, I guess.

J: The Baldwin-Felts accordin' to the pamphlet...when Tom Felts was runnin' for Congress...his promotional pamphlet...had done some work, I guess, counter espionage worked for the government in WW I, what was that all about?

HH: Well, what I've understood, they was roundin' up some German spies.

J: So, they were just...would they be under contract to the government or just volunteers?

HH: Uh-huh, I think under contract. They was hired guns, is what they was. Anybody...they's on whosever side wanted to hire 'em, I think.

J: So, they primarily did do work for the railroad and the coal companies?

HH: Yeah. The railroad's what got 'em started out.

J: Was it a partnership from the beginning? Did Baldwin and Felts start the agency?

HH: They started it, yeah. I understand they uh...they got to know each other and they hired 'em (railroad officials got to know the Baldwin and Felts). Havin' a lot of trouble on the border of Kentucky and West Virginia when they was buildin' a railroad through there. And, they's havin' a lot of stealin' and a lootin' in their railroad cars. And, they hired 'em to try to catch 'em. And, I think they must have done a pretty good job. Anyway in 1890 they formed this Detective Agency. And, the railroad hired 'em right off to do their police work. And, they stayed with uh...railroad company, the N & W and C & O, as long as they's in business, I reckon.

J: After the deaths of Albert and Lee in Matewan, did the agency continue to be as active as it was? Or did it cut some on it's work?

HH: Well, I think all through the '20's they was pretty active. But, sometime along about 1930, why, they passed some different laws, you know, about hiring private guards and all for the mines and all. Cut out a whole lot of their work. (It) started down hill then.

J: Did the Baldwin-Felts Agency uh...continue in operation after the death of Thomas Felts, or did it go out of business then?

HH: No, it went out then. That was it.

J: Tell me what you told me yesterday about the uh...to your knowledge...what happened to the records of the company. The documents and the contracts and that type of thing?

HH: Well, the...they're buried over in uh...the Galax landfill. Mrs. Felts had two of her hired men to...to haul 'em all to the city dump and with orders to stay there and not leave until they seen 'em covered up.

J: Now, which Mrs. Felts was this?

HH: That was Gordon's wife.

J: So, that would've been Thomas Felts daughter-in-law then?

HH: Right.

J: So, those records are gone then?

HH: They're gone.

J: And, where were they being held before they were taken to the dump?

HH: Third floor of uh...of the T. L. Felts house, on the top floor.

J: That's here in Galax. What was T.L's reaction when his brothers were killed in Matewan, from what you've heard?

HH: Well, I've heard they had to lock him up in a...in a mail car. Well, that's what I read in one of the books they've got out. And, you know, their motto was that if uh...they ever killed a Baldwin-Felts man you didn't live long enough to boast about it. Was what one of their motto's was, back in that day.

J: You mean locked him in a box car that was on it's way to Matewan or?

HH: I think so, yeah. One of the police headquarters has got a machine gun now belonged to the Baldwin-Felts. And, they had one at Hillsville, a Baldwin-Felts machine gun. But, they uh...I don't know why, but sheriff traded it to some museum or somethin' in Washington, I think.

J: Now, there's been...there's some reports that they carried uh...Thompson sub-machine guns into Matewan with 'em. Would that have been possible to carry...?

HH: I don't think so. The only ones that uh...they wudn't but two or three of 'em that was in this gang that went to Matewan that was allowed to carry rifles. Uh...Monroe and...not Monroe, but Lee and Albert and Cunningham. But, these they picked up in Galax, they wudn't qualified to carry a...nothing other than a pistol. So, they didn't have anything, but, just their pistol. And, I think Lee and Albert had already cased up their rifles or whatever. (Tape cuts off)

HH: Maybe buildin' a fence or a house and uh...if they was a post just a inch to high or to low they had to dig it out and redo it.

J: This is people workin' for Tom Felts?

HH: Yeah. One time they's old man used to do carpenter work with 'em he told me they had a house about half done and uh...T. L. come home on the weekend and made 'em tear it down.

J: Didn't like the looks of it or?

HH: Well, they didn't have it to suit him, you know. It wudn't uh...just exactly to his specifications. (Tape cuts off)

HH: And, they had machine guns they must have been suspectin' trouble. Maybe some of the miners, somebody follow them up and they had machine guns on top of some of the buildings in Galax.

J: Oh, is that right.

HH: Yeah.

J: While...right after the Matewan Massacre, you mean?

HH: Yeah, uh-huh. While the funeral's goin' on.

J: And, this old lady had actually seen that?

HH: Yeah, uh-huh.

J: Was there ever any disturbance?

HH: No, no, they wudn't...I don't know why they thought... at the time, I reckon, they thought maybe they was gonna be some, but, they wudn't any.

J: Okay.

HH: Mr. Jackson, the man that run the ferry up Jackson's Ferry, he told me about when they was bringin' the Felt's and the others that got killed back to Galax. About the train that come by, what a...come through like they's...look like a president or somebody been killed on it, you know. And, takin' 'em back to Galax to bury 'em.

HH: He told me that he would...they'd offered 'im pretty good sum of money to go with 'em to Matewan. Maybe work for 'em on a thirty day period. And, he'd come home and got his clothes out and was packin' 'em up. And, his wife said, "what are you doin'?" He said, "I'm going with the Felts. I'm going over into West Virginia and put out some miners." And, she said, "get them clothes put back in the closet" said, "you've just got back from one fight." He just got back from WW I. Said, "you just got back from one fight" and said, "you're not going to another one."

J: And, what was his name?

HH: Roby Manning.

J: Roby Manning.

HH: He used to work for Felts. And, he said that, long as he lived, he said, "my wife probably saved my life." And, good possibility that she did.

J: So, had he ever gone a on job with the Felts before?

HH: No! He never had...he never had done any police work.

J: So, they were looking for some warm bodies?

HH: Yeah. I never could understand why they uh...why they uh... got these. You know, some of 'em just didn't have any experience, ever I knowed of, in police work at all.

J: Did they advertise for people to hire on with 'em, like in the newspapers and that kind of thing?

HH: Well, I don't know, but I imagine probably they did, but I've never read it or seen it or anything.

J: What did people think about uh...Baldwin-Felts Agency around Galax? You mentioned somethin' about that a while ago?

HH: Well, they uh...a whole lot of 'em, like other places, they didn't think too much of 'em. Especially the ones that worked in West Virginia. But, you know, they was always...they had friends and enemies too, you know.

J: Now, this fellow Dan Cunningham that was killed in Matewan, you say, he was one of their regular agents?

HH: Yeah. He was from Roanoke, you know. That was one of their headquarters there. I imagine some of the railroad detectives had a better...probably, a little better...deal than some of these that worked at uh...mine guards.

J: Now, in the movie Matewan, they have two Baldwin-Felts Agents moving into town...and this would probably been four or five days before the Massacre ever happened...just to start...to sort of lay the ground work for the puttin' the miners out their homes. Do you happen to know if that's true or not? Were there agents there doing the ground work before the day of the Massacre?

HH: Well, I don't know I never heard. But, they's a good possibility they did, 'cause they had Lively there. I don't know how long he'd been runnin' the restaurant, but he, you know, he was uh...their informer. But, he was really...I understand...he was really in good with 'em. They thought he was on their side.

J: Now, do you happen to know what happened to C.E. Lively, after uh...say after Sid and Ed were shot?

HH: I never have, you know, he was uh...in Congressional hearings or somethin' they had that over...but, I just don't know. I don't know whatever become of him.

J: So, you don't know if he continued to work for the agency or...?

HH: I think he was with 'em fer, he was...a lot of the old timers ...this Roby Manning that I was tellin' ya...back before I was ever interested or cared anything about the thing...that's all he talked about. And, he always talked about Everett Lively, T. L's body guard, coming with 'im about every trip from West Virginia. He was his personal body guard.

J: So, he...this was after the Matewan Massacre?

HH: Oh, yeah long after, long after. And, how he watched when he'd go in a bank or wherever he was he always stood behind him, you know, kept uh.....

J: Is that right?

HH: Yeah, yeah.

J: Now, how about Lively, was he from around here or somewhere else?

HH: Evidently from West Virginia, he uh...I understand he worked in the coal mines, I don't know.

J: And, he became T. L. Felts personal body guard?

HH: Yes, I don't where they ever told you or not, but, on the Felts farm over there they had a shootin' range. You know, where he brought the detectives in and uh...and uh...like they do...train state police and things now. They uh...target practice. He even had a private sidin', the railroad sidin' to his house, you know.

J: Yeah, I guess, he had a private car and everything?

HH: Well, I don't know uh...probably did, but uh...

J: Did...have you ever seen a photograph of Lively?

HH: No, I never have. I'd like to have...I's gonna ask you that. Wantin' to get one, but uh... The way Mr. Manning used to describe him, he wudn't to big a fellow. I think black eyes, had dark, maybe, dark complexed. A little black eyed fellow, the way he always talked.

J: Did he wear glasses as you know of?

HH: Well, I don't know. (Tape cuts off)

HH: ...and he got a phone call.

J: Lively had his car where now?

HH: In the Dodge and Plymouth place at Welch. He worked in the office, this fellow did. And, he said they sent him in and said, "go in and tell Everett Lively he's got a phone call." And, he said they had the back wheel off of his car and he was down...Lively was down...watchin' 'em, maybe linin' the brakes or something, and, he tapped him on the shoulder gonna tell 'im about the phone call and said boy says, he had a gun right in the stomach before I knew what was going on."

J: This is the mechanic?

HH: Yeah.

J: Pulled the gun on the mechanic?

HH: No, on the man that worked in the office that was gonna tell him about the phone call, yeah. He said, "I just tapped him on the shoulder" and said, "just like that, he turned around and had a gun." (Tape cuts off)

J: Wore out the batteries.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection