Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Maurice Herzbrun Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center, June 19, 1990. I'm in Welch, West Virginia, with Mr. Buddy Herzbrun. My first question Mr. Herzbrun is what is your given name?

Maurice Herzbrun: Uh...Maurice...M,A,U,R,I,C,E, middle initial D., and you know how to spell Herzbrun? H,E,R,Z,B,R,U,N, like in nuts.

B: Okay. Okay.

MH: In other words, the M.D. is on the wrong end of my name. (laughing).

B: When were you born?

MH: I was born January twenty-eight, nineteen and five, in Welch.

B: Okay. What were your parents names?

MH: My father's name was Josef, J,O,S,E,F, and my mother's name was Lenna, L,E,N,N,A.

B: And were they from Welch?

MH: No. They were both from Hungary.

B: When had they come to this country? MH: Uh...I don't know exactly uh...frankly they landed in New York, lived there for a number of years. Came to Welch uh...some years before I was born. Since (then), two other children, older than myself, were born here in Welch. Why they came to Welch, I have no idea. Far as I know, they didn't know anyone here in Welch. They were the second Jewish family to ever come to McDowell County. My dad was a merchantiler. He later became a councilman of the city of Welch, member of the Kiwanis Club. How he did all these things, I'll never know. They set me up in Hungary. I just starved to death.

B: Were you raised in...in the faith. I mean, were your parents practicing..Jews. Where did you all worship?

MH: Oh , yes. Well, when I was a young kid, well, we just had various places. One of them was a...a hall over the city...city hall on McDowell Street. Later, they, with a number of other Jewish families, had a temple built on Riverside Drive and it's still in existence.

B: Did your parents...so they never said why they came to this country?

MH: I, never found out and uh...didn't ask about it. I probably should have. I was the youngest child in the family and uh...in those days, you didn't ask your parents too many things. And they never volunteered, so I really never knew.

B: Uh-hun. Do you know when they were born?

MH: Uh...I don't have that information, no.

B: Okay.

MH: I probably could look it up somewhere but, not off the top of my head.

B: Okay. So you were the youngest child?

MH: Yes, ma'am.

B: Out of how many?

MH: Well, there was, as I understood it, they had three children born in New York that I never knew. They all died early, as I understand, it was diphtheria. I'm not sure about that but there were four of us survived. Two were born in New York, and two were born in West Virginia. Two boys and two girls. I believe I said I was the youngest, didn't I?

B: Did your parents keep many of the customs of the old country. Did you grow up eating Hungarian food or...or anything like that?

MH: Well, as best they could. Let's put it this way. They... they grew up in Orthodox Judaism (Judaism), which of course is all that existed at that time. I don't know if you know much about Judaism, it's now set up in three different groups. An old Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. Temple here in Welch was completely Orthodox to start with. Because all of the grown people came from the Old Country Orthodox. Uh...it later became a reform temple and it's still in existence, just barely. And I've been president of it since man's memory runneth not to the contrary. (laughing).

B: In some um....places, Jews were discriminated against, were ...was...did your father suffer any discrimination here in town because of your faith?

MH: Not...not that I recall. He...he seemed to be able to fit into the community quite well. I remember as little children, sometimes, we'd be taunted but...called Christ killers. I didn't even know who Christ was at the time, to be honest with you. But, generally speaking, uh...there's been less discrimination, I'd say, in McDowell County than almost any place you'd...you'd come onto. For instance, uh...the people in this county, you could join any civic club, you could join any uh...country club uh... which is things that. Just like up at Bluefield, you didn't have the same situation. So, I don't know whether it's because, maybe down here, misery loves company although there wasn't that much misery. But I would say that there has been very little uh... feeling to that extent. In fact, my brother, who was the oldest of the four of us, graduated out of the first Welch High School. There was only four graduates, and he was one of the four.

B: When was this?

MH: Well, uh...I uh...I couldn't tell you the...exactly when it was. I uh...Eddie must have been oh, ten or fifteen years older than myself and I graduated in nineteen and eighteen.

B: What the school system like here when you were a...a little boy. How did you go to school here?

MH: Well, the uh...the grade school was, well, it's gone now, was the memorial building later and it burned down. It was up here on uh...Ho...Hobert uh...no, on Court Street and uh...we went to the eighth grade there. In fact, they used to have little, they used to have graduation on eighth grades back (then) And you didn't have, it was eight grades then and four years in the high school. And uh...all of we four children graduated out of that same grade school. And uh...then the...the high school was just a little frame building across well, across the river on the other side. And uh...later it crossed the two buildings that are now uh...above that uh...one of them was the high school. And of course, that was the high school up until a few years ago, until they built Mount View. I don't know if I've answered all your question or not.

B: Okay. Um...going back to your parents for a minute...

MH: Ma'am?

B: Going back to your parents for a minute?

MH: Yeah.

B: Did they speak with an accent?

MH: Uh...some. Not uh...not uh...not that you had any trouble understanding them. My dad spoke nine languages, believe it or not. Course, that's when you realize that the, those countries like Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Austria were all pretty much a...kin in language. Most of it was Slavic language and my dad uh...spoke all of them. So, when they had new citizens coming in from those countries that...that had to testify before, either to get their citizenship papers or in some court cases, my dad interpreted for them. He didn't receive any compensation for it, it was just, as a matter of fact, there's a book written by a man named Bell. Don't know if we still have in our library or not, because we had a fire and I'm not sure whether it went or not. But, it was a book that uh...was just, very few copies made of it. This man did it uh...and gave it to friends of his more or less. Uh...I can't think of his first name but uh...he was connected with Ritter Lumber Company, lived in this area for years. And then went into Columbus, Ohio, when Ritter opened their offices there and uh...in this book, he mentions my father. Now whether you can get hold of that book or not, I have no idea. Uh...but he was a...he was originally...Bell was originally a Lawyer, here, in Welch. I don't know if you're interested in that or not.

B: Yes, sir.

MH: Well.

B: Did your father ever speak any of those languages around you?

MH: Do...do what?

B: Did your father ever speak any of those languages around you?

MH: Well, uh...when he and my mother wanted us to understand what they were speaking about, uh...they did a good deal of talking in uh...Yiddish, which is a derivation of, more or less, of German. Uh...it's what you call Low German instead of High German and uh...I was able to understand a good deal of that and still can. But when they wanted to speak about something they didn't want us kids to know what they were talking about, they spoke in Hungarian. And I never caught on, outside of a few words of Hungarian, I didn't know what they were talking about. But they both spoke thorough English, particularly my father.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. You say you graduated from high school in...in 1918?

MH: Uh...eighteen, nineteen, twenty-one, two, three. Yeah, that's right eighteen. And I went up to Morgantown and was up there five years. Two years of pre-law and three years of law. I wudn't dumb. I took five years to do it. Now, it takes at least six, I think, or maybe more. I don't know whether they still have a three and three or a four and three now. Do you know? I don't really know.

B: I think it's four and three. (years to achieve undergraduate and graduate degree)

MH: It may be. Back in my day, you could get it. Take pre-law for two years and then three for and graduate with...as an L.L.B.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. How did you decide to...to go to Morgantown?

MH: Well, my brother had gone up there before me, as a matter of fact, and uh...he had been in law school, when the first world war broke out, he volunteered and, of course, after the war, he never went back. So I think, my recollection is it the...I think we was, I believe seven of us that went to Morgantown the same (year). Our freshman year...and I think that was the largest group that ever went from McDowell County, up until that time, to Morgantown. In fact, the boy next door, where I...when I lived over on Virginia Avenue, a boy named Paul Mitchell, and myself, were among the five...the group that went.

B: Would you tell me, on tape, how...what the trip was like up to Morgantown?

MH: Well, as I recall, we'd catch a train out of Welch and it'd take us into Kenova. From Kenova, we got a bus into Huntington. In Huntington, we got a train into Charleston then we had to go across town in Charleston in what they call the old Coal and Coke Railroad...I think it was the C & O. We rode the N & W from Welch up to Kenova and then on the, this other one which is... which is, was over near the Daniel Boone Hotel, we'd pile onto that thing and we rode overnight into Morgantown. And I remember when we'd get off that station down in Morgantown, you'd see all this...all these trunks. They must...they had them piled high, maybe, a five or six high. Everybody had their own trunk in those days and of course, then you'd have to get somebody to drag it to move...move your trunk up. But my...my trunks still over here in the warehouse.

B: Where was the station at that time?

MH: Well, it was down near the river uh...sort of a small set up there and of course the school and the town were up on higher ground but it was...as I recall, it was down near the river.

B: Uh-huh. Where did you live, when...when you...

MH: In Morgantown?

B: Uh-huh.

MH: Well, when I first got there I checked at the school and they gave me names of uh...people that were interested in uh... rooming and boarding students. And uh...I can't remember whether I went to one...more than one...but the one I finally wound up on was way up on a mountain side uh...on the Sunny side (neighborhood) of...of Morgantown. Uh...where you went past where the old uh...stadium was and you turn right and went up a mountain side. There and uh...that's where I roomed for a good length of time until I joined a fraternity.

B: Uh-huh. Do you remember how much you had to pay for your boarding expenses?

MH: Oh, I don't know. It was a very small sum of money. Probably, uh...I...I roomed and boarded at the same place and uh...I don't recall how much it was. I'd say it was a very small sum of money. Probably, maybe, five, ten dollars a month for the room and oh, fifteen dollars or so for uh...food. I'm not sure. It's been so long ago.

B: Uh-huh. What fraternity did you join?

MH: Well, I started out with one...one fraternity up there and it uh...it didn't go to well and so then we decided to go local. Uh...local, we call, is (unintelligible), as I recall and then we finally wound up with, affiliated with another National and it was Phi Sigma Delta. And it has since been enburnished with several other fraternities uh...in one called Z.B.T. and Zeta Beta Tau. Whether it's still on campus or not, I don't know.

B: Uh-huh. I don't know either.

MH: Yeah. In fact, I hadn't been up to Morgantown over two or three times in the last ten or fifteen years.

B: Uh-huh. So was there a fraternity house that you moved into when you joined the fraternity?

MH: Yes, yes. We had uh...I'd say during the five years we were up there, why, uh...we had two or three different...moved the fraternity house from one place to another. My senior year, I moved outside of the uh fraternity house. It was...and in those days uh...those fraternities were, that I belong to, were strictly Jewish fraternities. I think that's a thing of the past anymore. Now...but I was fortunate because the bulk of those men were from out of state who were going to the two year medical school in Morgantown. That's all they had was two years in those days and they were all, or the greater part of them, were older and they were determined to get an education. The result was, they were a good influence on me. Younger boys and that fraternity was always either first or second scholastically on the campus so it was a good move on, far as I was concerned. We...we got down to business.

B: What was the uh...law building. Where did you go to classes at that time?

MH: Well, the uh...law building was on the...close to where the...I don't know. I don't think it's the president's home anymore. Uh...almost across from the uh...the library which is now the uh...what is it, the foun...the old rock building...

B: Stewart.

MH: Used for offices now, I believe, itn't it.

B: It was Stewart.

MH: It was a long there across the street from it. I don't know if the presidents home still there in that building. I don't believe it's there anymore is it or not?

B: It's probably called something else.

MH: I guess.

B: Okay. Alright. What other classes did you take or did you just take um...law preparation classes when you...

MH: Well, that's what it was primarily uh...uh...regular routine that you'd have on a two year uh...uh...school uh...study program, more or less. Wudn't anything particularly connected with uh...with law in the thing. It was just a two year college, A.B. more or less.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. What was your class schedule like? Did you go every day or...

MH: Uh...five days a week. My...my recollection was there wasn't any classes on Saturday's as far as I can remember. I don't know what...uh...what that uh...building is now being used for, at the time, I went there, that uh...that law school building was virtually new and uh...it wasn't too far from the old library across from...a beautiful little building. And then the med school, the two year med school down in the bottom. I guess it, probably near what...I suppose, pretty close to where the field house was. See, there wasn't anything out there on the...the new campus. Everything was down in that uh...town...downtown campus.

B: Uh-huh. There where Woodburn Circle is, where the three buildings...?

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

B: Okay. Was the uh...president's house, once your outside Woodburn Circle, was it the second or third building away from there?

MH: Well, the uh...president's house was going further towards town and uh...as I recall, I don't believe there was any building between that circle and the president's home. I could be wrong but I, it's been so long ago. Then you had the...the extent of the campus was uh...the circle plus the Oglebay Hall was...was agric...the ag (agriculture) building was there at that time. And, of course, on that side of the thing, you had the little armory building and the football field was over there. I don't know if I'm tellin' you what...exactly where these things are or not.

B: Did your fraternity uh...did they socialize with other fraternities or...

MH: Uh...to some extent, yes. They uh...all the fraternities had uh...various and a sundry, little sports among themselves and so forth and uh...I think the participation was uh...was pretty much uh...goin' along with everybody. I...I don't recall any discrimination of any sort or what not or...I'd say that we were pretty much stayed to ourselves to a great extent but there was a little fraternity sports and that sort of things and everybody got into it.

B: Uh-huh. What about being in classes with women. Uh...did you date any girls up there or...

MH: Not a great deal. I'm, more or less, if we'd have uh...an affair, or fraternity affair, why, we'd usually uh...import girls from outside of town or some great number of them in towns like Uniontown and uh...up some of those uh...towns in Pennsylvania that were in close proximity to Morgantown. Uh...there was a difference in uh...some Jewish uh...people in Morgantown, but not a great great number of them. Most of them were people who had stores and so forth.

B: Uh-huh. So then there wasn't a Jewish sorority on campus like there was a fraternity?

MH: Huh?

B: Was..was there a Jewish sorority on campus?

MH: Uh...I don't think so.

B: Okay.

MH: Practically, there weren't too many Jewish uh...girls on the campus at that time as I recall. There was another Jewish fraternity. There was two there at the time uh...and uh...most of these, our boys from this part of the, McDowell County, and Mercer county, virtually all of us belonged to this one fraternity. Course, over the year, not all of us at the same time. I think there was only one boy that I recall from this area that belonged to the other fraternity. And his name was Sid Cross, from Bluefield. (laughing) But uh...this group that I, I think I mentioned this fellow wanted to get a group together, I looked over it the other time..the other day and uh...virtually all the boys from this area belonged to the same fraternity, course they came along after I did. Jerome Katz who was a judge up there, Merc...Mer...Mercer County for awhile. I think Jerome came up there about, either one or two years after me.

B: Uh-huh. Was there a dress code?

MH: Huh?

B: Was there a dress code at the University?

MH: A which?

B: A dress code? Was...did you have to dress in a certain way?

MH: Dress code? Only thing that we had to wear was a...freshman had to wear a little beanie. And uh...of course, everybody, all the males took R.O.T.C. for two years unless you was something wrong with you physically. And then you took phys. ed. And of course, they furnished your uniforms and uh...you had to go drill. I don't recall how much time and certain military maneuvers you had to go through and of course, that saves you a lot of clothing cause you...you wore that thing out. (laughing)

B: You were up there when women were allowed to vote. Did you ever hear of a secret sorority called the R.J's, when you were there?

MH: No.

B: Okay. Okay. What do you remember about World War I? You said your brother served during World War I.

MH: Well, I don't remember too much about it to be frank with you. I remember when it was over with because I remember there was a lot of shooting here in town, you know. And celebration and what have you but uh...that was what, 1918, wasn't it? I don't remember too much about it to be perfectly frank about it. Yeah. I would have been what, nine years of age, nine years old I think.

B: Uh-huh. (tape cuts off)

B: After World War I. Do you remember the flu epidemic?

MH: A little yes. I remember uh...they had people, well, even in store rooms uh...put up temporary bedding and so forth. Uh... I remember that uh...evidently there was quite a number of deaths...but, I just barely remember that part of it that they had set up facilities to uh...treat people and bed them in the store rooms.

B: Uh-huh. Did anybody in your family get sick with it?

MH: No.

B: Okay.

MH: I guess we lived up on a hillside. (laughing) But a lot of town people volunteered to help in that sort of thing. I remember one man in particular, his name was Sam G. Walker. He was a uh...saloon keeper, as I recall, uh...he was very active in uh... trying to take care of people who did get the flu.

B: Uh-huh. Do you..would you remember what time of the year that it hit?

MH: No. I can't remember.

B: Okay. Okay, would you tell me about the day that...what you remember about when Sid Hatfield and Ed Chambers got killed? Would you tell me about that day?

MH: You mean what I...you want me to repeat what I told you?

B: Yes, sir.

MH: Well, as I said, I was moving along what was then Post Office on Wyoming Street on the opposite sid of the street from the court house. And directly in front of it and uh...I saw two men on the lower level of the court house; first flight of the stairs. And uh...I suppose the thing that called my attention to it was the fact that I could hear these shots being fired and it seemed to me like there was a great number of them. They all seemed to be coming from the upper level and there was a number of men up there on both sides of the, that level goin' to the entrance of the court house. And uh...I couldn't tell who all was doing the shooting. I didn't know who the two men were down on the level. Far as I can see, they didn't do...they weren't doing any shooting. I don't know whether they didn't have an opportunity or didn't have any guns, or what have you. And uh... the next thing I noticed was that there was a woman that had an umbrella. Seems to me like she was up on the, well she was on the upper level there. Whether she had moved up from the lower after the shooting or not, I don't know. And she seemed to be trying to whack some of these men on the head with the umbrella. And, I didn't know any of the people at the time uh...and that's about all I know about it.

B: Were there many people on the street at that time?

MH: I don't recall whether there was or not. I don't think so. But there was up on that upper level. I'd say there was, a number of men on both sides of the upper level there. How many of them, I hesitate to say. Maybe, possibly ten or twelve. And I understood later they were Baldwin-Felts detectives.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. What kind of day was it? You wouldn't remember thinkin' about, was the sun shinin' or...or do you remember what kind of day it was?

MH: What kind of a day?

B: Uh-huh.

MH: Oh, it was, far as I can recall, it was a clear day. I don't remember thinkin' it, why this woman was carrying an umbrella, I don't think it was raining as I recall, it was just a clear day and I don't remember even what time of the day it was, to be frank with you. Sometime...I don't know whether it was morning or afternoon.

B: Okay.

MH: It really didn't make that much of an impression on me. I didn't know what was going on.

B: Uh-huh. So, do you remember that the...do you remember anything about the aftermath about the...the trial. Did anybody try to approach you to be a witness?

MH: Well. I didn't volunteer to say uh...that I'd seen anything, to be frank with you. I don't think anybody knew it or asked me about it so I didn't uh...frankly, I wasn't anxious to get involved in it and, so I didn't.

B: Uh-huh. Why was that?

MH: Well, among other things, I had one grown person tell me that it would probably be wise for me to stay out of it.

B: Uh-huh. Did they ever tell you why or was that all they said?

MH: No. I don't think so. I...I assume, it was part of it. Course, at that time, McDowell County was non-union. And uh...it was some years after that, in fact, the mines weren't unionized in McDowell County until the time of Franklin Roosevelt and John L. Lewis. And uh...the county was run by coal operators. Three of them, as a matter of fact, they'd either be on the county court or they'd have some person that worked for the company uh...on the county court and the county court virtually ran the county. So in my judgement, the person advisin' me thought it would be a smart idea to stay out of it. If...if I'd have been called, I'd certainly would have testified. But I wasn't and what little I knew, as I've told you now, probably wouldn't have been worth anything to anybody anyhow.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. Did your father ever express any opinions about unionization or..or the coal business?

MH: I don't think so. I think he was too busy earning a livin' and takin' care of his children and sendin' them to college and what not. Sent two boys to the university and two girls up to New York Business School.

B: Uh-huh. Why did your sisters go to business school?

MH: Well. My brother...my father had a brother in...in uh...New York and uh...they wanted the children to have an education and of course, they could go up there and live with him and uh...and uh...go to business school.

B: Uh-huh.

MH: Which, they did.

B: Did they come back to this area?

MH: Yes. In fact, I...one of them's son, my nephew, still lives in Welch.

B: Uh-huh. Did you all marry um...other Jews?

MH: Yes.

B: Okay.

MH: Outside of this one, my nephew is married to a Gentile. He out-married himself. He's got him a fine wife. And she's a good Baptist. (laughing)

B: Was that something that just happened because you socialized with other (Jews). Did....do you think at the time when your... your siblings and you married that it was or were you told my your parents that you had to marry another Jew or was that just how it happened?

MH: Well. Uh...I would say that, first of all, your...your Christian or Gentile wasn't...that...their parents didn't want a Jew for a son. And by the same token, it was just the other way around on the other way. Normally, that's uh...married out of faith uh....adds a different...adds another obstacle to a good marriage. Doesn't necessarily mean it won't be good but it... it's another obstacle. Now, when they start fightin', why, they can throw that up to each other. You understand that don't you?

B: Yes, sir. (laughing)

MH: As a matter of fact, I was married to a non-Jewess but uh...it didn't work.

B: Uh-huh. How many times were you married?

MH: Just once. Once was enough. I never had anymore. Never wanted anymore. (laughing)

B: How old were you when you married?

MH: Uh...let's see, I was uh...about thirty-five or six. I got married in February and went into service, the second World War in October, nineteen and forty-two. Now, I've got an adopted daughter. That's some of her pictures on the wall up there. She's a little bit older than that now, though. (laughing)

B: Where did you serve during the war?

MH: I was very fortunate. I was...spent sixty days at Princeton University and they tried to make me a naval officer in sixty days. They tried to give us four years of Annapolis in sixty days. Didn't work too well but, so I was in Princeton sixty days. And then sent to Norfolk, and from Norfolk I stayed there for awhile until I got orders and wound up in Puerto Rico. And back and forth from Puerto Rico to this country and in all, I spent about, virtually, two years in Puerto Rico. And uh... forty-two and about forty-two to forty-five and virtually one year in this country. I was in service three years. I didn't fire a shot at anybody. I went in as an ensign and came out as a first lieutenant.

B: So you joined the navy?

MH: Yes, ma'am.

B: Okay.

MH: Yeah, they were willing to give me a commission to start with so I ran to the navy.

B: Uh-huh. What did you do in Puerto Rico? Why were you in Puerto Rico?

MH: Well. At that time, when I first went there, course it was possibility of being invaded or what have you and it was a step towards this country and uh...so I was put into communications. Ran the uh...worked in the coal room to start with and would up running the radio station. Naval radio and then was brought back into this country and doin', doin' the same thing with radio at...at Norfolk. We're...we're goin' far afield now aren't we? (laughing) First thing you know, you'll know more about me than I know about myself. (laughing)

B: Um...let's see. When did you um...when did you graduate from West Virginia University?

MH: 1928.

B: 1928. So you...you...did you start there in 1923? You said it took you five years.

MH: Yeah. It was a five year course.

B: Okay.

MH: Two pre and three law.

B: Uh-huh. And what do you remember about the Great Depression?

MH: About the Great Depression? Well, when I got out of law school in '28, that's when it wudn't but a year or two after that 'til we started catchin' it. See, I had uh...in the summer time, I had worked with a law firm in Welch. They had a collection agency and I mostly worked in it. So when....three or four days before I graduated...one of the members ask me to join the firm. So when I got back home, I had about three or four days and I went to work for the same firm. And I wound up with uh...later with a partnership with one of them, who was later, circuit judge here in this county. And uh...so, what did you want to know?

B: Just um...about the Great Depression?

MH: Well...

B: How did it affect the county?

MH: I forgot what you said. Well, what happened was, about nineteen, I think it hit here about nineteen and thirty, close to it uh...my dad had been a director in a bank, First National Bank of Welch. And uh...I was livin' with my mother and the other children were married and away. And uh...the stock in that bank, at that time, was supposedly selling for about four hundred or four hundred and fifty dollars a share. We had fifteen shares, course, my mother had it. And overnight...that...you had to pay double liability in those days. You had the double liability on bank stock. So instead of it being worth anything, you had to pay up a hundred dollars on each share which is fifteen hundred dollars. So, I think I had eighteen hundred dollars in savings account, in the bank. So, without lettin' my mother know, I put up the fifteen hundred and that was that. So, it was...it was... it was tough. Uh....there wasn't any cash around. People had an awful time tryin' to do business because there wasn't any money around. (There) was a man named Logan here in Welch...tryin' to think of his first name but I can't ...can't remember it, anyhow, ...he had a printing shop and somehow or the other, he kept a lot of cash on hand. Had it in a safety deposit box in the McDowell Bank. And uh...he let people have some of this money so they could at least continue in business. And uh...it was tough. I found out, on the banking deal, was a man named uh...I...oh, I can't recall his name. Uh...anyhow, he was a...a coal operator, originally from up here at uh...at Bramwell. He was the biggest stock holder in the McDowell County National Bank. Isaac T. Mann, M,A,N,N. And uh...so, as I say, they ...they closed the door on the First National Bank building, on the First National. They had a meetin' to determine whether the McDowell Bank would take over the First National. Uh...had it in the bank building up here. And I attended the thing since I was involved with my little tiny sum of money. And this uh...Isaac T. Mann was there. And they decided that they would need two hundred thousand dollars more than the hundred thousand uh...hundred thousand that would be put up on the stock. Double liability and so they checked the number of members of stock holders there to see if they could raise the money. Uh...Mr. D.J.F. Strouther, who was a probably the most prominent lawyer at the bar uh...oh, law firm of Anderson, Strouther, (unintelligible), and Curd, I believe was the name of it at that time. And uh...I remember they went around to ask people how much they could put up and so forth. Cause it will eventually wind up that Mr. Strouther put up the biggest part of it because the active working member of the First National was his nephew, Jack Price, who later went to the penitentiary, but that's another story. Anyhow, there was a man there named Brooks Williams, and he was a great big fat jovial sort of a fellow. The kids always liked him. And when they got to...got to him...they used to call him Cousin Williams...and they said, "well cousin, how much will you cough up?" and he practically, he just, I thought the fellow was gonna have a fit, I mean, he just shook all over, he never did answer. Anyhow, they finally got the money up. And the time they did that, they checked around and found out that the McDowell Bank was also in hot water. And so, on a weekend, they changed the name of the McDowell County National Bank of Welch to McDowell County National Bank in Welch. And when they opened up Monday, it had a new charter. I'd say that there wasn't...I'd say, probably wasn't a half dozen or a dozen people that ever knew that that had happened. So actually, both banks were defunct. That's about as good as I can tell you about what happened during the Depression.

B: What about your political leanings through the years. Have you been a Democrat or a Republican or?

MH: Well, when I got out of law school, you couldn't elect a Democrat dog catcher in McDowell County.

B: Uh-huh. Why was that?

MH: Well, because all the coal companies set ups...they say the coal companies ran the county in those days...as I said before, so they were all Republicans and they kept out...kept the unions out. Well, when Franklin Roosevelt came along, he and John L. Lewis, that's when they started unionizing the coal mines. In fact, at that time, before that, somebody, as a unionizer came in here, why, they ran him out of...out of the county. So, the county was completely Republican and when this (unintelligible) just turn the whole thing overnight. And then...now it's got the point, McDowell County you can't Repub...you can't elect a Republican dog catcher so all the dog catchers are now Democrats. (Laughter) So, when I come along, course it was Republican. And as a result of having been appointed assistant prosecuting attorney at one time, and divorce commissioner at one time, I've stayed with the Republican party. Which is really ridiculous because you don't have anybody to vote for. In other words, there's virtually no Republican uh...aspiring for office in this county. Now, that gets you into real history doesn't it?

B: It does. Um...I guess my last question for you um...when you signed up for World War II, at that time, did people know what was going on in Hitler's Germany?

MH: Uh...no...

B: With the Holocaust?

MH: No, I don't think so. I certainly didn't. No, I think that came out quite after that. Matter of fact, the only reason I was volunteered was, I knew in a few months, I was gonna be drafted. I was a single man at the time and rather than being drafted and go in as a foot soldier, why I ran to the navy and got me a commission. So I wasn't that much of a super patriot, it was protection. (laughing)

B: Did you ever hear about anybody say um...Jewish soldiers in our army. Were they kept out of the European theater because of the German army or...?

MH: How's that now?

B: Did...did any of the um...what was the policy in...in the services' at that time uh...for Jews serving in...in...in the European theater. Did they...did...did anybody go anywhere or did they segregate because of religion?

MH: No segregation whatsoever. Religion played no part in anything, as far as I'm...as far as I know.

B: Okay.

MH: I think in the group that I was in, in Puerto Rico, no other officers there, I think there was only one Jewish boy other than myself. And there must have been about oh, I'd say, forty or fifty non-Jews. So, religion played no part in it whatsoever. As a matter of fact, my closest friend when I was down there was a Catholic boy from Boston. In fact, we uh...we were quite close to each other over the years. Course, I lost track of him since then.

B: Uh-huh. Where did you...do you know where your father got his supplies? You said, before he was a merchantiler.

MH: Where he got his supplies? Well, I think mostly, I'm not sure, to a great extent but, most of the merchants in this area uh...were supplied out of Cincinnati and some out of Baltimore. And then you'd have sales people come through. They'd have a great big trunk full of samples that they would bring along. And uh...and the merchants would order out of those. And of course, everything came by...by freight, rail. You didn't have the trucking industry that you have today. In fact, you didn't have much road. (laughing) I can remember when Welch didn't have any uh...any uh...pavement.

B: Was it gravel or...

MH: Well, you'd...you'd...the streets would usually would get kind of muddy and they'd have stepping stones that you'd go from one side of these steps on these stones from one side to the other. And if you happen to slip and off the stone, why, your liable to land on your behind. Most people wore, you know, rubber boots and so forth during the wet weather. And instead, most of your sidewalks were...were made of wood. And they first ...when they first paved in Welch, they paved with bricks.

B: Uh-huh. Was this the streets or the sidewalks?

MH: Huh?

B: Was this the streets?

MH: Well, the sidewalks were uh...wood and the streets were just dirt. Outside these stepping stones. I don't know when exactly they paved the place. I do remember when they put the sidewalks ...streets down with bricks. They put tar in between of them. We kids would dig some of that tar out and chew it like it was chewing gum. Didn't taste good. But kids will do a lot of things, won't they? (laughing)

B: Did um...did your father sell just clothing or did he run, say, like a general store?

MH: Well, he was a...he uh...custom made suits. In those days, you didn't have uh...the choice that you have of uh...ready made suits that you have today. I mean, it's rare that uh...that uh...you have uh...custom made clothes anymore. Today, you can go into a retail store and they've had um...long and tall and short and middle and so forth. They didn't have them in those days. So they actually produced the suits out of...out of uh...out of cloth. And uh...what he would do, particularly on weekends, and what and that, is the coal camps, you had these large club houses, as they called them. You'd have, maybe a man and his wife, running this club house and they'd have fifteen or twenty roomers or boarders there. And these were single men that worked in the mines...and my dad would...and in the course of the day... why sell five or six suits and then take them back later. Course after they were completed or maybe halfway completed and checked before they finished them. And, of course, in addition to that, he uh...cleaned clothing and pressed it and so forth.

B: Uh-huh. Okay, one last question, when you were in school here in, in Welch, as a child um...did...were there holiday celebrations. I mean, did they have Christmas parties and things like that at the school? Did you participate?

MH: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

B: Okay.

MH: Yes, there wasn't any uh...feelings. Wasn't uh...Jewish people that know much about it anyhow. So whatever went on, went on. We...we were pretty much ignores as far as that is concerned. I remember, I had a nephew, he's in D.C. As a matter of fact, he's a, he's my brother's oldest boy. Philip, he's a Ph.D. Went from an A.B. to a Ph.D and skip an M.A. with a Phi Beta Kappa key so he's pretty smart.

B: Uh-huh.

MH: And uh...(tape cuts off)

Matewan Oral History Project Collection