Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Charles Dixon Interview

Becky Bailey: 1990. I'm in the uh...union local office here in Matewan and I'm going to be talking to Hawkeye Dixon. Um...Hawkeye, what is your full given name and when and where were you born?

Hawkeye Dixon: My full name is Charles Howard Dixon. I was born on November 2, 1951 at McCarr, Kentucky. About a mile from Matewan, West Virginia.

B: Okay. And, who were your parents?

HD: My parents are K.B. Dixon and Beatrice Dixon.

B: Okay. Were you born in a hospital or were you born at home?

HD: Yes. I was born at the Appalachian Regional Hospital.

B: Okay. Was your father a coal miner?

HD: Yes. He was.

B: Was his family from this area originally?

HD: Yes. Un-hun.

B: Okay. And, what about your mother's family?

HD: Yes. My mother's father...my mother was originally from Beech Creek and her father died uh...when she was relatively young, probably twelve to fourteen years old. Uh...and her mother died about a year ago. Uh...she was born and raised on Beech Creek, West Virginia.

B: How did her father die? Was he also a miner?

HD: Uh...yes, he was a miner but I'm not...I'm not sure. I don't think it was a mine related uh...death. It wasn't a mine related accident. He died with uh...some...some sort of disease.

B: Okay. Alright. Yeah. Um...was your father a union man?

HD: Yes.

B: Okay. Could you tell me some...about his activity?

HD: Uh...well, I can tell you that my grandfather was K.B. Dixon, Sr. He originally came to East Kentucky in about 1920 from North Carolina and he married my grandmother and he started work in the coal mines and married my grandmother and they had five children, one being my father, K.B. Dixon, Jr. and uh...my dad uh...once he became of age, eighteen, he went to the service and uh...after getting out of service he went into the mines uh...my grandfather was the local union president and uh...staunch union supporter. He got killed uh...in a coal mine. Got uh... crushed by a slate fall in the uh...late forties, mid to late forties. He got...he got killed by a slate fall and my dad being the uh...oldest boy, and assume the....you know, assumed the role of...of helping my grandmother uh...raising the other kids and he went into the mines and uh...he's drawin' a pension. He...he worked in the union mines and then later uh...he became a boss for Island Creek Coal Company and uh...he got laid off in nineteen and eighty-one, I think it was and got recalled back to work and then was unable to pass the physical examination and has since then been trying to obtain social security which is uh...is as of to date yet, not been uh...successful in gettin'. He's had about, he's been uh...he's had about three serious mine accidents. He's had his back covered up with slate about three times. He's got his...one of his arms are...one of his arms is...his right is uh...is mashed up. He's lost probably eighty percent of the use of his right arm. He's had uh...had some serious mine accidents, but yet's been unable to obtain anything as of right now, he's uh...got a little business sellin' trailer parts. Livin' in the same place that he was born. McCarr, Kentucky. Uh...

B: Hum. Did your um...when your grandfather was killed in the forties, what kind of compensation was givin' to a family, say, in the 1940's when a miner died? Was there any compensation given from the company or was it?...From the union?

HD: Now the only...Now the only compensation or help that my grandmother received at...at the death of my grandfather was a two thousand dollar burial insurance provided by the UMWA. Uh...she obtained no other assistance to my knowledge.

B: Were they living in company housing by that time or...or did?

HD: They...they owned their own home but uh..prior to that, the company owned all the homes but uh...uh...at this particular time, they owned their own home.

B: Okay. Alright. If you don't mind. I'll back track and ask a few questions um....your grandfather then, had been, the local union, a local union president.

HD: Yes.

B: How did um...when unions became legal, do you know much about how the organization started at that time? How did...how did, let's say, how did a man become the president of his..of his union local?

HD: I think it was not until, maybe the mid thirties or where the coal miners were allowed to join a union and then, when it was legalized to where the coal miners could unite and bargain over wages and benefits, that most every one in the East Kentucky, Southern West Virginia area, you know, without hesitation, joined the union because they were being treated, basically, like dogs. Uh...the way that you become elected or become a local union officer is basically, just uh...every four years, all the offices within the organization, you had an election and uh...I was local union president of my local for uh...for uh...two terms and uh...you have to run and uh..you're elected by the majority vote. By the members that belong to the local.

B: Okay. What did um...say, starting form the ground up, how is the UMWA organized? How...say, why would this be, say, District Seventeen and across the river in Kentucky, where you live, why would that be District Thirty? Can you explain how the...the areas are divided and then go up from there?

HD: Uh...pretty well. Well as, as...as the organization grew into different areas, as we grew, we started uh...structuring ourselves into different districts. Like in district twelve, that covers the state of Illinois. District eleven, covers the state of Indiana. District 245 covers the state of Pennsylvania and uh...if you, you know, if we went into a state and then we started organizing members, and as we grew and got substantial amount of members, there would be a district set up, you know, what you would start out doing, first of all, would be go into a community and establish a local and then, as you establish more locals, then you would establish a district. And that's uh, you know, that's just how we've come up with about nine hundred as of to date, probably about nine hundred locals throughout the United States and Canada and twenty-one districts all that make up the International Union.

B: Okay. What um...I know, now, you're a member of the International Board?

HD: Yes.

B: Okay. What is this group that you belong to and what's your position? I mean, what...what do you do now?

HD: What I do now is, the United Mine Workers, we have a International Executive Board Meeting uh...once every three months in Washington, D.C., sometimes we conduct them out in the uh...coal fields. Our organization is...is set up structurally where uh...in authority, President of the United Mine Workers, just that, he's the president. He's the man that makes the decision uh...then you have the vice-president who helps and assists the president. Then you have the secretary/treasurer, that takes care of the bookwork. International Executive Board is between conventions, the supreme governing body. In other words, the decisions made by the president of the United Mine Workers of America are subject to the approvement of the International Executive Board. Each district we have elects an International Executive Board member that goes to Washington D.C., to approve these decisions that the president makes in between the board meetings. Uh...and in between the conventions, you know, all decisions that's of major importance. It's not like, you now, any minute decision he wants to make, he has to have the approval of the International Executive Board. But uh...all major decisions made by the president has to be made with the approval of the International Executive Board.

B: How often are uh...the conventions held?

HD: Every four year. We have one scheduled, this year, in Miami. Uh...to begin on September 17, through about the twenty-seventh.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Just to back track a little bit um....some questions about yourself. Um...where did you go to school when you grew up in...in McCarr?

HD: Uh...I went to school at McCarr. A little grade school. It was a uh...it was a two room school and uh...it was called the little room and the big room. Uh...the little room, you went from the first grade through the fourth grade in the little room, and then you went to the big room, which was from the fifth grade through the eighth. Uh...we had a pot belly stove uh...and then uh...after completin' the eighth grade I went to Belfry High School where I graduated in nineteen and seventy. And my son, by the way, just graduated uh...about two weeks ago.

B: That's great. When you went to um...the uh...grade school at McCarr, did the...were the different, say, in the little room, were the first graders and the fourth graders all taking classes at the same. I mean, how did...how did you take classes? How...how did a first grader get separated from a fourth grader?

HD: Okay. Now while we were all in, in essence of the little room, each grade had a table, that'd be about the twiced the size of this table and we would all, if I was in the first grade, well, you know, when I was in the first grade, we had a first grade table, within the little room and all the first grades would set around the table and the teacher would come along and give us all an assignment, you know, assignments throughout the day and then the second grade would have a uh...a table, where all the second graders set around. And that's, how it was structured. The grade school was.

B: Un-hun. Okay. About how many kids went to this school? Do you...

HD: Probably about, in grade school, the little room and big room together, I would say probably uh....sixty...sixty, something like that.

B: Hum. Well, do you know if that kind of school was...was still common when you were growing up in this area? Cause it seems like an awful traditional way of going to school, compared to other places in the country?

HD: Well, I would, you know, I'd say we probably, at that particular time, probably the most modern school. Uh...I'm not sure because I never went to any of the others. I know of, the other, they were two schools in the area, one, the Blackberry Grade School, which was sort of like set up, you know, within the same system, then we had the maybe a little different. I think they might have had brick around their school, but the Buskirk School, which is just located across the river, they had basically, the same system. Yeah. It was just a big room and then separated the kids by, uh...with tables based on their grade.

B: Okay. After you um...graduated from high school, did you go to work in the mines or, what did you do?

HD: Yeah. I graduated from high school in 1970. I was uh...eighteen years old I worked in a local grocery store for about six months and then I went to work for uh...for Island Creek Coal Company and uh...I worked for Island Creek Coal Company from about nineteen...about March of 1971, probably until nineteen and seventy-eight. I got laid off and then I went, or I got laid off and then I got transferred to another one of Island Creek's sub-contract mines over into Kentucky which was down at Big Creek. I worked there for about a year and I got laid off and then I got a job on Blackberry Creek about nineteen and eight-probably 1980, just a few miles above my home for a Massey uh...subsidiary. A company owned and controlled and operated by Massey and I worked there until October of nineteen and eighty-four.

B: Un-hun. Um...you graduated from high school uh...during the Vietnam War. Were you drafted or were you rejected for health reasons or?

HD: I never was...I never was called uh...you know, to armed service. I was...they had the draft lottery and I guess, you know, I was probably, I never volunteered...Uh...but I'm a very patriotic person. I didn't volunteer uh...I don't know whether it was luck or whether I was forcing it or not but I...cause I regret, you know, regreted not having experienced uh...you know, going into the armed service but the reason I didn't go was because I...they had a draft lottery and I was two hundred and five. I don't think they...I think about as high as they ever got was about a hundred and fifty. They had you set up according to your birth date and I think it was from about one to three sixty-five, anyway, I...it just, you know, with the system they had set up during the draft with...with the system they had it set up during the draft, I was too high for em' to ever get called. My brother was called but he was turned down. My father was in the armed...he was in the marines.

B: Was this during World War II or Korea?

HD: Uh...he was in the marines in probably uh...I don't think it was probably after World War II. I don't think it was during war time.

B: Alright um...let's see, one of the things that we're interested in, historically, now, is how, because for so long, historians have studied the history of um...unionization in this area, and now it's become important and were wondering how the uh....UMW...UMWA has kept alive the history of say, this area with the events, say in...in Matewan um...what do say, what would the average man in this area know about the events of 1920? Blair Mountain and Matewan Massacre?

HD: Well, I'd say, basically, everyone probably is from the area, that's lived here for any length of time knowed basically about the Matewan Massacre. What...what happened but, you know, I know how. how many facts, that they all know because, you know, they listen to their, probably their grandmothers or whatever but uh...everybody's, you know, very knowledgeable of uh... of Matewan's history you know, the Hatfield-McCoy Feud uh...but I'd say, probably, if you set down everyone and ask them what happened, you might get, probably a different story. Uh...it probably wouldn't be...it wouldn't very uh...be that many differences between their stories but, probably what everybody knows what they've been told by their grandfather or grandmother, or what have you.

B: What the um...the story as far as you know it, of say, the Matewan Massacre?

HD: Well, as I know it, you know, the coal miners were being, were basically living in slavery and uh...the union, the mine workers came in and tried to organize the coal miners in uh...West Virginia, especially Southern West Virginia and East Kentucky uh...and then there was, you know, there were the mine, the routine mine wars. But the coal companies, I mean they had a pretty good hold on the people, had all the politicians, you know, where in essence company appointed uh...so the companies had the law uh...on their side, basically what happened was the people were uh...they were getting killed and they were being treated badly so they decided to join the union and then you had the mine wars because the company was, you know, they didn't...they didn't want them to join those unions. They had them uh...they had them where they wanted them, they had them living in the company homes. Going to the company churches. Goin' to...livin' out of the company stores. The company had total control over the people in the area and they liked it. They didn't want to lose it and they knowed that the union would uh...would give the people more independence. And they fought and fought hard and uh...that's one of those fights where it was the Matewan Massacre, where by they brought...brought in, you know, if they couldn't, if they didn't have...if the sheriff department wasn't strong enough or big enough to fight off the drive or the effort by the people to join the union, they would bring in additional help such as uh...the Baldwin-Felts which was a security firm in...in essence, known better today as, the Vance Security. They would bring those types of individuals in and strong arm the people. Try and detour them from joining uh...the efforts that were under way to uh...to join the union and that's when the uh...they had the shoot out in Matewan whereby they were several of them killed, you know, that's known as the Matewan Massacre. Basically, what brought the uh...the people about, in order to join the union was the uh...the treatment, you know, the inhuman treatment put up on them by the coal companies and coal operators.

B: I was wondering, I know because um...the people of West Virginia have not been told their own history. It's hard for them to know but one of the things that I have read says that in the early 1900's, one of the reasons why the UMW could not get Southern West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky organized was that the union had nothing to offer the miners as far as the miners were concerned. They thought that they were in control of their working hours. They like the uh...freedom of being assigned a certain tonnage per day and then once they got that, they could leave. That's what's in the history books um...what do you think, say, in the early days, mining was actually like? Do you think that is an accurate portrait of why the union couldn't catch hold?

HD: No. I think it's I think it's totally absurd for anyone to...they've not...not having been born until 1951, and not, like I said before we commenced this interview, and on the authority, however, I think, you know, basically any books or most books you read will not tell you nor will the record show that coal miners were not organized because they were being treated so good and so kind by the coal operators. No, and I think if you interviewed anyone, that uh....was living during the twenties, thirties, uh...they'll tell you. My grandmother, she's told me that she's saw coal miners, they would go to work. They'd go up by her house and they would have their clothes held on them by papaw bark. I mean, you know, this is not an exaggeration. And you know, uh...no, it wasn't like that the coal miners uh...all they had to do was get up at seven o'clock in the morning and go out and casually put in a days work and come back home. My grandfather, you know, I mean, I get my information, basically, from my grandmother. She, quite often, tells me, you know, some of the experiences she had back in the thirties, forties, what not and uh...she would tell me my grandfather would not see sometimes, his kids, which would be my dad, maybe once in a week and then it would be only just for a few brief moments, while it, you know, while it was asleep. You'd work from daylight to dark. You would go out and what they had to do was clean up so much coal with a shovel and you had to stay there and clean up that certain amount of coal before you left. If you left before you cleaned it up, there was no need to come back tomorrow, because someone else would have your job. There was water and you know, and it didn't...it didn't matter whether had to uh....kneel down in...in...in water to get that coal loaded.

B: Un-hun. Now, your grandfather was killed in a slate fall. Slate falls didn't just happen did they? It was usually when roof in a mines wasn't supported properly, right? Is that what...

HD: That's...that's right. Yeah. You know, in the thirties, forties, and probably mid fifties, the only roof support were timbers, you now, just short trees. That's what timbers are and that's the way they supported the top. Technology, now, you know, well, they have roof bolts uh...ut uh....back prior to the uh...manufacturer of roof bolts, they didn't have nothing but just basically timber and as time went on, the timbers would season out and get real weak and couldn't hold the top up and then, you know, that's when you'd have roof falls and you'd have men in there roofin' and you'd have, that's probably the most major uh...you know, roof fall and I think...I think it still is today, more people being killed by roof falls. And uh...

B: Alright. Um...something um....what are, say some of the early union activists. How are they looked on today? People like Mother Jones and Bill Blizzard and Fred Mooney and Frank Keeney and people like that?

HD: Well, their very well respected and appreciated, you know, for their, for their efforts back during the time that's...that's made things better for today's coal miners. People like John L. Lewis, Mother Jones, you know, they made some great sacrifices. As well as the coal miners, themselves did. I mean, they're the ones that made...made the most major sacrifices in order for the working coal miner today to have life as it is. There's a lot of suffering uh...a lot of coal miners killed uh...and uh...mangled the maimed in order for us to have gotten the state and federal money laws that we have and for us to have the basic benefits that we have today. There was a lot of people that had to do a lot of suffering.

B: Okay. Um...what about...I know this isn't your local but, uh..some of the important figures, I'd say in this area history, people like Charlie Kiser, did...have you heard anything about him?

HD: Yeah. He...I don't know Charlie Kiser, I've heard comments made about Charlie Kiser and not...they were basically all derogatory and I don't...and not knowing him, I don't know. I don't know what type of representative....representative he was uh...I don't know him. I think he was a field rep back, maybe in the fifties, sixties or whatever. I don't know him.

B: Okay. Well the um...

HD: Did John Whitlock know him?

B: I...I didn't think to ask him. I know he...

HD: He should have. He knows him probably.

B: He was...he was active here in the twenties and then was picked up and taken out of here and I know he helped organize I think, in Detroit with the CIO so okay, what about um...John Collins. He was from the Mohawk area originally and he was, supposedly, I think, the first local president out of Red Jacket during the thirties when it became legal. I talked to his daughter.

HD: Yeah. Johnny, uh...if it's the one I'm thinking of, he was uh...he spent some time in the penitentiary as a result of...of the mine war, one of the mine wars. Might have been related to the Matewan Massacre as well. Um-hum. Staunch union supporter. He has uh...several brothers now that live in Matewan. In fact, Johnny uh...Johnny Collins, I guess it would be Johnny Jr. lives at North Matewan. His brother Steve, lives uh...here in town. Their all great union oriented people. Staunch supporters of the mine workers and uh...good people (tape cuts off)

B: People were fighting for the union...legalization of unions and you were gonna say?

HD: Yeah. I was gonna say that the people fought, to get the union in order to obtain better wages and some basic benefits and that's just to have a better life for themselves and they got the union and they obtained those basic benefits and they are providing a decent life, you know, for themselves plus their families and what we're having to do today, from time to time, is basically do the same fighting as we always have done and it's not in essence as much to get those, basic benefits, but it's to keep those basic benefits. We know, that, with the loss of the union, the clock will be turned back. Coal operators are the same today as they were back in the twenties. They set and they count dollar bills. And if they can count one more dollar, operating a mine nonunion, then they can union, then they'll operate in non-union. And if they can save a dollar by cutting your wages, they'll cut your wages. If they can save a dollar by providing you with an eighty twenty medical policy versus full coverage, then they'll provide you with an eighty, twenty medical policy. If they can work you without giving you a vacation, they will work you without giving you a vacation, you know, and I make all these statements, not trying to be uh...critical of...of the coal companies because we have some good coal companies that's been great to..to the people in the area that's provided. Uh...you know, good wages, benefits without us having to, pursue, go to war with. We have some that have not. They've been as staunch today on...on opposing the union as they were back in the twenties.

B: Where...are those companies uh...were the companies that come from states like Virginia where there's the right to work laws or?

HD: Well, yes. Basically uh...the company uh..well, the one that we've had most problems with, most trouble with has been a Virginia based uh...company, uh...Massey, uh...you know, it's not like that if, in essence, war is called , it's not like that he has to be here to see the suffering. Uh...it's not like that he's in any danger and when you're dealing with a company, uh...and you have an individual that's calling the shots, uh...it's hard to uh...to get a contract from company like that. Now, that's what Massey does is, they don't get personally involved. They don't set down at the table with the union and try to work out their differences,. They didn't do it in eighty-four. (1984) What they done was hired a union busting, notorious union-busting law firm that sat down with the union for the purpose of avoiding good and fair faith negotiations. Uh...and in companies like that, uh...you know, it's what leaves sour taste in....in the people's mouths in this area.

Uh...they want a...they want a...Massey, he wants to uh...to tell the media and tell everyone everywhere that he's the best thing since apple pie that's ever happened to West Virginia or Southern West Virginia. He's provided all these jobs and all that but uh...history will tell you that coal was being mined in West Virginia long before Massey came to uh...Southern West Virginia and it will be mined when he's, you know, when he's gone. Uh...what we don't need is operators like Massey whereby they just come in and they don't want to set down and uh...fairly work problems out. They want to just uh...hire a Washington based law firm that don't know the people. That don't understand the needs and set down and try and solve problems. You don't solve differences and/or problems like that. We have better success with companies that are from the area that know the people uh...that obtain, you know, if they want to obtain people to uh...to take care of various parts of the business, such as negotiations, they do it with...with people from the area that know uh...what the circumstances of the situation is and they have more success uh...

B: So you're saying, say, when you walk in to represent the union and...and you see a, say a member of the management for the...the coal company, if he's a local, they tend to do better?

HD: Yes.

B: Two local individuals. Say, two men or I don't know if there's women involved yet but, but they set down and if it's two locals, things tend to go better?

HD: Yes. You know. I signed a contract as...I signed one this morning for a company, a local company. I signed a contract and had that been one of Masseys companies, I set down with the coal operator and we signed the contract in about thirty minutes while having breakfast. Had that been a little small mines that Massey owned, I would have set...sat down probably at Washington D.C. and looked across the table at about five different lawyers. All wanting to uh...uh...try and trap us in unfair labor practices or trying to just prolong the negotiations while they are uh...running coal with uh...replacement workers and what not.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Um...if...if you can comment, what do you think has caused for...for so many years, people thought of coal, they thought of the UMW and they thought of West Virginia, what...when did non-union mines really start coming back into existence? I mean, it seemed like for years, if there was a coal mines, it was organized. When did that start coming back, non-union mining?

HD: The non-union mines started coming back whenever technology started replacing the jobs. When we had four hundred thousand people working in the coal fields, if you got out of...out of work or out of a job, you could go down the hollow, down the road and find you another job and uh...that's what you would do with...with, you know, with unemployment so high within...within the coal miners, you know, there's probably several thousand coal miners, very experienced, very qualified, that are laid off. They have exhausted their unemployment benefits, or whatever. They have no income and right now, you know, if you got a coal company that...that you put on strike, that company knows that it can dip into that unemployed pool of people and hire without any problems, people that will work and that will cross the picket line, where as they didn't...they couldn't do that back in the seventies. Sixties. Seventies because you know uh...people didn't have to. At this day and time with uh...with so many coal miners out of...out of a job, uh...they'll work for the uh...seventy-five, eighty dollars a day. Uh..ten, twelve hours a day. That's one of the biggest problems is that uh...the coal companies know that they can get people to work for less because there's so many of them out of work and it's hard to organize a company whenever the law is the way it is in South Africa, is you strike, and have a legal right to fire you in South Africa in the United States, they got a legal right not to fire you but they got a legal right to replace you and I don't see a lot of difference.

B: What...when they say replaced, does that mean...do they term it in...in a way so that it seems like temporary replacement? Is that where...

HD: Well, you got permanent replacements and then you have temporary replacements, in other words, if you strike, because your contract has expired and you're trying to get you another contract, and if you strike, the company, tomorrow, can hire an individual to replace you. If the company tells that individual that he or she is temporary, then that's what he or she is. You're temporary. Whenever they negotiate your contract with you, then you go back to work, however, the company can declare that person or individual as a permanent replacement worker, then, whenever, when and if you do get a contract, you'll go back to work only if a company needs...that company needs another person. It's totally, as I see it, it's real hard to put pressure on a company whenever they know they can legally, tell me the difference in you getting fired and you gettin' permanently replaced. If you strike, and you're in South Africa, I can fire you and in the United STates, I can go out and hire me somebody and tell that individual that they're a permanent replacement worker.

B: I was fired.

HD: Yeah, you was. In fact.

B: Okay.

HD: But they've uh....I guess permanent replacement sounds a little less harsh than fire.

B: It's like the Nazi's telling the Jews they were going to get deloused when they got gassed wasn't it? (laughing)

HD: Yeah.

B: Okay. Um....I saw a bumper sticker coming back from Welch yesterday that...that shows that the union is a hundred years old this year. What is going on to commemorate this anniversary? What is the union internationally doing to celebrate this anniversary?

HD: Well, we're gonna have our one hundred, well, you know, we're gonna have our convention this year in Miami and uh...you know, no doubt, you know, we're gonna, you know, play it up big and...and do a whole lot of thing, I don't know specifically what uh...what the international has in mind as far as what the various ceremonies or whatever that were gonna be puttin' on but I'm sure were gonna do it up right, you know, when we get to Miami, I mean uh...I don't know exactly what kind of celebrations that we gonna be puttin' on but I'm sure we gonna be uh...really grateful and thankful for uh...existing one hundred years.

B: What, John L. Lewis was president of the UMWA for how long? Forty. Fifty years, something like that?

HD: I would...I don't...I don't know for sure, I would say uh...twenty-five to thirty...I'm not exactly sure. Quite awhile.

B: Un-hun. What...what effect do you think that had, I mean, it seemed like he called the shots, I mean, through the history books. It looks like he was pretty much the controlling man in that organization. Was he, as you know?

HD: Yes, he was, you know. The coal miners, back then, the coal miners didn't have anything and when they got a union that provided them with a basic daily wage, and a vacation once a year, they were very appreciative, you know, because they were, you know, a guaranteed wage. They were, you know, appreciative. John L. Lewis was the man in charge whenever it became legal for us to organize the people to join a union and uh...the difference between now and then is that, as I see it, the...the...the coal miners today, their prod...they're like me, they're a product of '70's. When I went...when I went to work the first day, it was at a union mine. The daily wage was already established. Good pay.; Good benefits. I didn't have to suffer to get the union. The union was given to me. Uh...we have too many coal miners today that...that...that think that it's always been this way. The coal miners get paid for what they do. Get paid good for what they do because they're worth it, you know, and that's why the coal companies pay them the good wages because they feel they's too many of them that...that...that want to operate independently, now, then what they did '30's and '40's. They got the attitude that I...I make my hundred and twenty-five dollars a day because I'm worth it. They're a fool. They get paid a hundred and twenty-five dollars a day because of the union. They are worth it but they won't get paid for what they're worth. They'll get paid what that company has to pay them without a union, the only thing that mandates or dictates the pay that you receive to my knowledge us the minimum wage law. I think we both, you know, know that that's far from a hundred and twenty-five dollars a day.

B: Yes, it is.

HD: If you work the whole twenty-four hours.

B: It might be a hundred and twenty-five dollars a week um...let's see, what um...now I may be wrong but I thought I heard in the news the other day that union membership has been declining in the last few years. Has it been the tug and pull of unemployment versus work of some kind that has pulled men out of the union and...and encouraged them to work at non-union mines?

HD: Well, the membership's decline is probably for several reasons. One is....is because of technology. Uh...another is...is because of which is basically technology as well as because of different types of mining that you have today that you didn't have...see, used to, you'd have an underground mining operation that would hire, say, uh...four hundred people, what you've seen a whole lot of within the past seven or eight years is a whole lot of strip mining in East Kentucky, Southern West Virginia whereby, you got a company that does up on top of a mountain with uh...twenty men with a bunch of dozers, bull dozers and coal trucks and you take that twenty men and they'll produce as much coal as that operation that employed five hundred miners used to uh...you know, and that's how...that's...that's why...that's...that's how that...that's why I come...or I come that, you'll see there's a record production of coal being produced in the states of Kentucky and West Virginia. However, two out of every three coal miners that had a job in 1970, are unemployed today.

B: what do you think is goin' to be the future of the UMWA? I mean, as, I mean, how much more can technology advance can...can you see a day coming when men don't work to mine coal?

HD: Well, to be honest with you, it is sort of like scary to see that how technology can just take your job, you know and I'm...I'm not, in essence, against progress, you know, I'm hundred percent in favor of progress, but not at the expense of nobody having a job. Except for a few corporate heads that uh...I don't know what happens when you get to that point, you know, when there's nobody working except for machines. And uh...yeah, it is true. I don't know what...I guess we just have to legislate. Protection for jobs. And we need to start boycotting some of these multi-national corporations like Shell and others that, instead of giving the American people what...what the standard wages are, they just relocate over to places like South Africa and...and...and instead of trying to bring the South Africans up to our...our standard of living, you know, they just relocate and try uh...to bring us down to their level.

B: Un-hun. I know back in the um...early 1900's and '20's, union activists were often called communists or socialist or things like that and I notice you said earlier that you feel you're very patriotic but in dealing with Washington, has anyone ever accused you of being a communist because you're involved with the UMWA?

HD: No, the person that insinuates that I'm a communist will have a fight. Real...real quickly. I don't believe in communism... I'm not totally satisfied with the structure we have. I'm satisfied with the structure. There's a whole lot of Republicans. There's very few Republicans that I like. There's a whole lot of Democrats that I'm highly dissatisfied with but I'm uh...you know, I was born and raised. Bred, born, and raised a Democrat and I love to...I love this country. I'm a staunch supporter of the United Mine Workers. The United Mine Workers of America is not an interest group. We don't...we don't represent special interests. We represent hard working people and uh...we get offended whenever we are accused of being a special interest group uh...you know, I...I'm aware of back, you know, you know, commie's(communists) or whatever, you know, I guess that's...that's a term being used for years and years and years. I think back when they was organizing, you know, that...that the law would try and get the people to think that you know, these...these...these organizes, they're commie's (communists) or whatever. But uh...and I don't believe in a dictatorship nor does this organization and that's why we're the most Democratic labor organization in this country to date. Our membership has a right to chose their representatives. Now, it's not always been that way. During the John L. Lewis days, coal miner's didn't have a right or a vote on what kind of contract they had. John L. Lewis would negotiate a contract and then the miners would work under it. That's not the way it is today. We negotiate a contract and if the members don't like it, then they turn it down and then we have to go back and negotiate another. We have the most democratic labor organization in the country and we represent the best people. Good people. Hard workin' people.

B: Does the um...does the (unintelligible) now consider, many years ago, say in the '20's, before the '20's, unions wanted to all ban together so that all different um...basically blue collar workers would be together in...in one big union. What kind of contact does the UMW have now with, say, other labor organizations in the country like the AFL-CIO?

HD: We...we just affiliated in fact, with AFL oh, back a year or so ago and uh...the mine workers has accepted, you know, we, with...with people like, well, within the last ten years, with people like Ronald Reagan in the White House and George Bush, we don't anticipate being any better cause that labor organization has to consolidate and have to be uh...in other words, labor organizations were all gonna have to join one big union and that big union is AFL-CIO and it will be reaffiliated.

B: Un-hun. Okay. Um...are there any national political figures that...that organized labor considers to be on their side labor?

HD: Our side? Jessie Jackson. Uh...Ted Kennedy. We supported Walter Mondale.

B: Un-hun. You have slight grin on your face (laughing) over that.

HD: But uh...

B: Was that because of his defeat or, you have this grin on your face.

HD: No, it didn't really, the grin doesn't, but uh...

B: Okay. Um...one of the things that keeps appearing in the news media that has people like me upset and I know it probably has the union upset and even probably management upset is that um...reporters say that, union members still consider violence as an acceptable way of fighting um..the companies. What do you...what do you think of that? Do you think that...that labor tries everything in...in its power to...to negotiate with the company? I mean, what do you think of, say, jackrocks and...and...and breaking windows on...on non-union, on the coal trucks and things like that? I mean, what do you think is the cause of the violence?

HD: Well, the cause of the violence really is quite simple. There's two ways of fighting and that's fighting the legal way or fighting the illegal way and whenever you attempt to fight the legal way and your, you find yourself in a system where justice is not being applied and there's the laws are applied one way for the coal miner and another way for the coal operator, it sort of detours you from trying to fight the legal way. You get frustrated. Whenever you file an unfair labor practice charge before the NLRP, and it takes you sixteen months to get an answer, and then the coal companies can have you in federal court, or any other coal companies can...can file it, they'll get an answer within a week. Two weeks. In other words to give you a good example is this. We can file an unfair labor practice charge against the coal company and sometimes it's...it's recorded, it'll take a year and a half to get an answer. Companies can go to the NLRP to request an injunction and we'll be in federal court before the week's out. Now, another example is that, John Smith, he uh...he uh...he was president of Massey Coal Company or Marrowbone, uh...he's Massey's right arm. He was sent to the federal penitentiary for all this political corruption. He was sent to the federal penitentiary. What does he spend? He spends a year and a half at a half way house. He's back...he's back on the streets. I've got four men that's in jail right now spending four years of their life. All of them's got families and kids and so far as...as...as the crimes, their's were violent. What they were accused was probably...was probably more violent because they violated one individual right, but what Smith done, hell, he violated everyone in Mingo County as he robbed them of their right to vote. It's just uh...so there's your system. If you're a coal operator you can do it and if you get caught, don't worry about it, we'll put you in a half way house uh...if you're a coal miner, you get caught, and number one, too, if they say you done it, you're guilty unless you can prove yourself innocent, will be on you do go to court uh...you've probably read the paper about the federal agent that jut got through killing the girl in East Kentucky that was a drop out, I mean, I don't like the coverage that she's been getin' nor her family, it's like that, "don't tell, don't, surely to God we're not going to destroy this young man's life, that's a federal agent because he strangled some drop out in East Kentucky." Today, he's married, he's got kids, you know, we're not...it's not right. John Paul Runyon, the state prosecutor, the question was posed to him and you can check this in the last couple of weeks. If this had been an unemployed coal miner, would you have offered the same deal to him. He said without hesitancy, absolutely. That's a crock of shit. I had a coal miner that was tried in federal court for murder. Was found innocent in federal court, this is all documented, found innocent in federal court for murder by a federal jury, before he left that court house, he was indicted by John Paul Runyon for murder by the state so then you've got, you know, you're dealing with those, with that kind of a system in East Kentucky, Southern West Virginia to where, you got Spike Maynard back during the Massey strike in '84 and up, he issued gun permits for all the scabs and all the security guards. Coal miners...UMWA members never got no gun permits, you know, what I'm saying is that you wouldn't see the violence in the coal fields if you...if the coal miners could see justice in the court houses. If they could see the laws being fairly applied, and they were not put on the back burner until they just decide to fade away, you wouldn't see no violence in the coal fields. But whenever, they find themselves on strike and they see the...the state militia come in and protect a bunch of scabs from trying to take their jobs, the uh...yeah, you know. You're gonna see it especially whenever they know that they have no recourse because the courts are not uh...they're not interested in applying the law.

B: What about the...the resources um...I'm sure, and I know, I don't want this to sound as ignorant as it's going to but I'm sure that the budget of the UMWA is minuscule compared to the budgets of some of the coal companies that they have to fight against. Am I right?

HD: Right.

B: What...what portion, say of annual budget does the UMW, can it afford to spend on public relations.

B: On television commercials and...and um...radio adds. Things like that to try to get its message across to the general public.

HD: I'm gonna tell you, you know, I don't know how much we spend, I can say that it's not near enough.

B: Tape two of Hawkeye Dixon interview, June 20th, 1990. Just as the tape ended on the other side, um...Hawkeye, we were talking about the finances of the UMWA. Does the UMW prefer UMWA or UMW? Which is the preference?

HS: UMWA.

B: UMWA. Okay. Of...of their budget for public relations versus the...the working budgets of some of the coal companies and you were saying? What was the difference between the two budgets, would you say, between the UMWA...

HS: Well, I'd say, if the question is, who has the most money, undoubtedly, the coal companies do. No doubt they have more money than we do, however, strikes are not always won based on who has got the most money. Money does help whenever you get into a strike situation or whenever you get into organizing efforts, you know, you got to have, you got to have money to finance whatever programs you want to implement and what not. We're not broke by any means, you know, we have probably eighty million dollars in our strike alone. We have property all throughout the United STates and Canada. We are uh...far from being broke.

B: Okay. Um...what is...I...I heard on the news yesterday, that up at West Virginia University, that they may have come up with some cell research that may help with black lung disease, helping cure black lung. What kind of um...benefits does the UMWA send to say, pensioners that have black lung? Does the UMWA help support those people or is it the federal government?

HD: Well, I would say that, it was the UMWA that got the program to begin with. The UMWA does not pay a black lung benefit that we lobbied and obtained legislation that created a fund, the black lung fund. You know, that's what the union is. It's not an institution for say uh....dollars and cents. What the union is, is the people...Uniting with each other for a common cause and trying to send representatives to the state house and to the court houses and to the white house to, it's...it's a voice, that's what the union is. It's a voice for the people.

B: Un-hun. Sounded like a grass roots lobby group then.

HD: Well, uh...I guess we could be called a lobby group. Difference is that we're not up there lobbying for uh...any special interest other than the people...the working people. Yeah...yeah. I guess we are lobbying. Yeah. We might even considered, I guess, a special interest if...if...cause I guess people are special. And they are our interest so I guess we could, even that could be considered a special interest group.

B: But it's...it's more just because of the specialization of the...of the profession, not...not say a group of people looking for a monopoly.

HD: We don't have a...right. Right. We don't have a product to sell. We don't manufacture goods. We try and obtain you know, wages and benefits and make a better way of life for working people of this...of this industry. We had done so for the last past hundred years. Hopefully with uh...God's blessing and a...a good Democrat in the White House, we might survive for another. A few years.

B: Okay. Um...what...what kind of...of work do you do here at the...I know you make these trips to Washington, but what do you do locally for the union?

HD: What I do, basically is that I'll go out...I negotiate contracts. I'll uh...arbitrate grievances. I'll uh...travel to...to Frankfort and lobby on various bills before the legislature. I'll involve myself on...on different organizing drives. Uh...and I'll try occasionally, you know, I just do whatever I can uh...to uh...try and better our public relations cause it's very important and thats something that we failed as I...in my opinion, we've not put forth the effort because the general public don't, in my opinion, they have a misconception of the mine workers. They think we are nothing but, a lot of them do, think that we're nothing but, maybe a bunch of thugs and that's...that's far from the truth. You know, coal miners, members of this organization, they go, they work hard. Usually six days a week and they get up on Sunday's and they go to church and uh...when they get a little time away from the mines, they like to spend it with their families. I mean, they're down to earth, hard-working, good people. And we're not thugs. We're not violent. We're not criminals. And that's not to say we don't occasionally become violent but it's just not like that uh...we just wake up one day and decide to be that way. We uh...we try and protect uh...what we have uh...our way of life, our benefits, our wages and uh...we get highly offended whenever we see those wages and benefits threatened. Uh...you know, hell, we probably wouldn't have a country if we didn't have a whole lot of people who didn't...didn't think that way. I'd say maybe the Russians have already gotten us, huh? If we didn't have people here willing to fight for what they believed in and uh...and their way of life.

B: That's...that's...that's true. Um...that's what I ask you before if you had ever been called a communist by the...the new right wing political organizations in the country because they talk about individualism being what made this country great and superficially, unions seem to be the exact opposite of that, you know, collective bargaining seems to be the exact opposite of individualism and I was wonderin' what you all thought about that?

HD: Well, as I see it, unionism is just the opposite of individualism. As I see it, let's say me and you for instance, if...if you look at the individualism, or it would be me and you competing against each other to get this job over here a hand loadin' coal and they tell you that uh...they gonna pay you ten dollars to do it and I'll tell them I'll do it for eight and you say, well, wait a minute, I'll do it for six. One of us is gonna get, the job of loading that coal. Who ever it is ain't gonna make no money, do you know what I mean? If me and you unite, and form us a union, and we say, look, we neither one are gonna do it for less than that, that ten dollars today huh? And one of us is gonna make a good livin' and chances are the other one is too whenever he goes and finds that second job loadin' that coal. Unionism is, I don't see it being, I don't see how it can be compared to individualism.

B: Un-hun. How do you think then that unionism, because we're not taught that as...as a way of American life in history books, you know, in traditional civics classes they talk about rugged individualism and..and...and independence and all that and I was wondering, how you thought that fit into the American way? The idea of unionism?

HD: Unionism is, in my opinion, is...is...is the most democratic structure there is. I mean, is...is...it's...it's as All-American as apple pie. Unions are. Having only...only vehicle that the working people in this country have...To better themselves in regards to wages and benefits. Unless you have uh...some kind of a college degree, I guess. It makes you more superior than, you know, it makes you capable of doing something that no one else can do then I guess you have some cards to play with, unfortunately, most people don't have.

B: Even us college educated don't.

HS: Yeah, I mean, there's probably a lot of college students that's looking for work too.

B: Yeah. Okay um...my last question for you, I guess would be, just a basic, general question, what do you think is gonna be the future of the UMWA?

HS: The UMWA, this is what we're gonna do and this is what we plan to do. Is that we...we've recognized that we've got to, we got to expand outside the coal industry uh...you know, we're probably the most qualified organization, union organization in this country to represent people, rather, a history that anyone can be proud of and we're gonna expand outside the coal industry because the coal industry has become so mechanized or, you know, with this new technology and stuff that there's not gonna be enough coal miners even if we organized them all to uh...to maintain and organization that's gonna be politically powerful enough to make, you know, the necessary changes that we need. We're gonna start representing probably, you know, anyone that needs a union. And uh...I think our reputation and uh...supercede(s) or compete(s) with any other labor organization.

B: Okay. Well, thank you for talking with me today.

HD: You're certainly welcome.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection