Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Mary M. Ward Interview

Becky Bailey: This is Becky Bailey from the Matewan Development Center, Tuesday, July 10, 1990, I'm in the home of Mrs. Mary Marie Ward. Uh... Mrs. Ward, my first question for you is when and where born?

Mary Marie Ward: I was born in Thacker, West Virginia, 19...the fourteenth of January, nineteen and twenty-one.

B: Okay. And what were your given, what were your parent's names, your real parent's names?

MW: My real parents' names was John Layne and Sara Layne...

B: Uh-huh. But you've told me off tape already that you were adopted, could you tell me about that?

MW: I was adopted, I had...I was twin, I had a little brother, and we were born, borned on the fourteenth of January, and our mother died on the seventeenth...We uh...my real father was, put the word around in Thacker that he was going to give the children away, so this family came to see him, Mr. and Mrs. Georger Tudor, that lived there in Thacker, they did not have any children and they were too late to uh...adopt both of us...'course they had already given my brother to some people and uh...they told Mr. Layne the only way we will take her will be through adoption. And I have the adoption papers, you know.

B: Uh-huh. Uh...were your real parents, you say...we have...have a picture that says they had fourteen children...were...were they older when they had you then, was your real mother an older women, do you know why she died?

MW: Why she died of childbirth, uh...my oldest sister tried to get my dad to get a doctor and he would not, if he had gotten a doctor, my mother would probably have been still living. But I am the baby of the whole family.

B: Uh-huh, But do you know why he refused to get a doctor?

MW: No, but my sister said that she tried to take care of us, me and my brother which she uh...had to what medical, the cuttin' of the cord and everything she did that by herself. I don't blame her for you know, she tried.

B: So, there wasn't a mid-wife, there with your mother at all...

MW: No, no mid-wife...

B: she was by herself. Did your sister ever say, were the other ones born like that too, did no one come to help her...

MW: No, uh...I think with some, most of the other children which back then they had 'em at home, you know, that was the way back there. But they uh, I think he would get a doctor then, but at that present time uh...I didn't go into details with him, I do know that he did not get a doctor.

B: Okay, what did he do for a living do you know?

MW: That I do not know, I don't know to much about my real father, uh...I know after Mr. Ward and I were married uh...one of my husband's brothers worked with one of my brothers, and they were talking in the mines at work and he said Woodrow, my brother's getting married and uh...he said what's her name, and they said Mary Marie Tudor, well they knew that Tutor's had adopted me. Which my brothers' during the service, they were in the service uh...they had been trying to get in touch with me and they could not find me, course I was lost. Then after this talk with the two brothers uh...my real father wanted to set up a meeting so uh...my husband and I were living at that time with my sister-in-law, Ms. Carrie Osborne, that lived up here at Red Jacket...and uh...they got the word to us, that he would be coming up, my real father would be coming up to meet me and at that time, I did not know that I had been adopted...For I went through mother's trunk many a day, you know how a child rumbles through things, and the adoption papers was there but I never paid no attention to 'em...but after Mr. Ward and I were married uh...he, she told Mr. Ward said to, Woodrow, you tell Marie, I...I don't...can't tell her, but now for the record I had a beautiful mother and a father. I could of(have) been raised no better, my own father, I don't think could have done any better...I thank God for those lovely people...But anyway after Mr. Ward told me because, they had to tell me because Mr. Layne was coming to see us. And so, anyway Mr. Layne came and he was sitting across from me and was talking and I noticed my husband's face got red, when he gets mad his face gets red, but anyway after Mr. Layne, before he left said he was going to have have a homecoming, that was on a Saturday and on that Sunday they gonna have a homecoming. Then I could met all my brothers and sisters, so I went, and uh...which we did we meet each other for the first time but, uh...Mr. Layne had talked to me about what he could and what this and that, that's why my husband's face was getting red 'cause what he was telling was not the truth, so Mr. Tom Osborne and Carrie my husband's sister-in-law, we all got, the week after, we all got in their car and we went up to a family that was named George Hinkle...and they told me, that how he had come with my father, uh...when I was borned, I had some kind of problem physically, they took me to Inez, they took me to different hospitals...the doctor said take her home and take care of her, there's not a thing we can do....and I was so small they had to pin me on a pillow...now my twin, my brother he was healthy they say, but anyway this colored lady came by and told 'em said we will, 'cause I couldn't keep anything on my stomach...we will boil rice and let her drink the liquids, sweeten' it and that wouldn't stay...'cause when I would take in anything it would come out green, other words, there wasn't no chance, and then she came back and she told me, we will try oats water, so then we tried that, that kindly, and I lived on oats water for a year...for one solid year and I can't stand oats now. But this family had taking me to, to verify that my hus...my father wasn't telling the truth, which my mother had told me later, you know, and uh...she had just a had a baby and she was a real husky lady and she had plenty of milk she even tried to get me to nurse, I wouldn't do it, I was stubborn. But anyway when I had found out that I had been adopted alot of people thinks well, what would she think about it, but you know that made me love them that much more... to know they took me when nobody else wanted me, raised me, that made me love them that much more.

B: So you say the mother that raised you just had a baby?

MW: No, the lady, the friend.

B: Oh, the friend.

MW: Yeah, the Hinkles, George Hinkle. But uh...they were dear friends of Mr. and Mrs. Tudor, and uh...when the uh...work got here, as I say my hus...my father worked in the mines, back then when they used picks and they used the mules...and that was way back, and work got bad, so his brother had moved to Harlan Kentucky, and he wanted them to come over there to get some work, so I was raised in Harlan Kentucky and uh...in between the times I went to school in Harlan Kentucky and we came back here one time for a visit and that was when I met Mr. Ward...and we feel in love as the old sayin' goes...we was married February 17, nineteen and fifty-one. We was married in Church of God addressing, Harlan Kentucky...and the minister was J.P. Morgan.

B: To back track a little, the parents that raised you do you know, when and where they were born?

MW: Well it has here uh...now Mr. Tudor, George Henderson Tudor, he was uh...borned December the nineteenth, eighteen and eight-seven in Putnam, Tennessee. And his death was May the thirtieth, nineteen and sixty-nine, now my mother she was borned the tenth the fourth eighteen and eight-seven, the death was eleven, eleven nineteen and fifty-two, now where she was borned, I do not know it was Tennessee, somewhere in Tennessee.

B: Uh-huh. Okay, did they ever talk about their families or...or where they had been raised, were they raised on a farm or anything like that?

MW: Well, I know I have pictures of uh...my mother's sister and they was on a farm, uh...now my father, Mr. Tudor his family all lived in Tennessee, and one place was Algood, Tennessee...

B: Uh-huh...Could you spell it for me?

MW: A.L.G.O.O.D, Algood, Tennessee.

B: Okay. What brought them to Thacker do you know,

MW: Well Mr. Tudor was working in the mines they, they had came from Tennessee and was here with his brother and he had gotten a job, and they was married in nineteen and sixteen and uh...I think that's what it was, nineteen and sixteen, yeah, and uh...he was working in the mines and uh...his brother was working in the mines 'cause I remember my father saying, back then was when they used the old picks. And uh...he was turned one way and his brother Luther was turned the other way, and when Luther raised his pick up it, it hit his brother in the back...I remember that, him uh...telling me that. That was uh...yeah, one of those accidents.

B: You know what company it was?

MW: No, ma'am I do not know, that I do not know, I wished I did.

B: How did they get married, do you know how they met or anything like that?

MW: No, you know, my mother never did say. But I know they used to have, I do now remember her saying, up there across the swinging bridge there was a big uh...uh...sandy spot. And they, on Sundays the people would gather there for picnics, go in swimming, so in my opinion they must of met at a occasion like that. I remember her telling me that, they were (going) to pitch horseshoes and go in swimming and...

B: They's...they was both older when they got married by that time weren't they? Had either one of them been married before?

MW: No, uh-hun...

B: Okay, and they didn't have any children of their own?

MW: No, they could not have....she could not have children, so when they heard, that the uh...adop....the Layne's was going to give their children away...they wanted to get both of us which there was somebody...but later on though, it wasn't a little while after that, that my twin brother died, the old family that had him, some way they didn't you know, couldn't take of him or something... but uh...I know when they wanted to adopt me, they told Mr. Layne, I said we will adopt her, that's the only way we will take her... and when they, took, came to the courthouse in Williamson, my mother, I can remember her saying, before they could go into the courthouse, she had to go into the store and buy me some clothes. That the clothes I had on, were just like you would take an old pair of pants or an old dress, and you know sew and make it up and try to make it into a dress...so they went in a bought me decent clothes...for me to go in front of the judge. And back then, times were hard, 'cause that was during the Depression.

B: Uh-huh. So the...the father that raised you was a miner? Okay, uh... and uh...you were raised in Harlin, is that right?

MW: I was raised up in Harlin, but my first schooling I went to was across the swinging bridge in Thacker. And a...Varney lady, was my...I can't get her name. She was my first teacher and uh...I don't remember how old I was when we went to Harlan Kentucky, I know that I...must of been the school age because uh... I can't...can't get a birth certificate, I didn't have a birth certificate, so they caught me in the census...in the year I went to Thacker School, so I have...do have a supplemented birth certificate.

B: What do you remember about going to school when you were little?

MW: I remember here at Thacker, I remember going, 'cause I didn't have to cross the swinging bridge 'cause the school was on the other side. I didn't have to cross swinging bridge. I remember uh...Mr. Varney that was uh...my teacher's boyfriend at the time, I remember when we would be out for lunch, or playground or whatever they would call it...I wouldn't go out. I would stay in there with them and I would sit on his lap.I remember, remember that definitely. For after I came back here to West Virginia, uh...my husband Mr. Ward knew him you know, and he introduced me, and he said this is the little girl used to sit on my lap... And uh...I remember too, coming from school one evening, and my mother hollering "stay back" because she had found a snake, she was scared I would run into it. And I remember coming across the swinging bridge one time, we were going to church and uh...they had just bought me one of these little sun umbrellas...and the wind took it away from me and it went down the river. I remember that and uh....there's alot of things I remember that...and uh...there's a lot of things I remember.

B: Do you think your uh...the parents that raised you spoiled you a little bit because you was their only child and you have been adopted, and they were older when they adopted you?

MW: Well, they loved me dearly. uh...To a little extent, I was spoiled, but my mother always taught me to share and be good to people. And I think that right there, was uh...means a whole lot. And when...and when I grew up I didn't grow up like a lot of 'em, I didn't grow up selfish. I would always share things, even to this day, I said if I had five-hundred dollars, I would give it away.

B: Uh-huh. Okay, Did you finish school?

MW: No, ma'am I went to the tenth grade, is a far as I went. My mother became sick and I had to stay and take care of her. And uh...the principal and I got into it one time at school, and he wouldn't apologize, and he was in the wrong, and he wouldn't apologize. So I said that's it for me, so I quit school. Sorry, that I did. But...

B: What school, were...were you all living at that time, what school was it?

MW: We were living in Harlan, Kentucky and uh...it was uh...just the Harlan; Kentucky that is the name of the uh...place there. And our school colors were, green and white and our uh...what a call it was a tiger, green tigers. Green tigers.

B: Okay, did your mother develop a lasting illness or?

MW: Yes, she had cancer. And uh...matter of fact her sister had passed with cancer before she did. And uh...then uh...as I say it was the eleventh of November that uh...my mother passed away. And I was married at that time. uh...I didn't have any children at that time and uh...we had to go from here to Harlan, Kentucky. But we brought her back from (to) West Virginia she wanted to be back in these mountains and these hills, she loved the West Virginia people.

B: Uh-huh...You said before we started the tape that uh...the day the Massacre happened your parents...

MW: Yes, they were coming to uh... uh....Will...they might of(have) been going to Williamson. But uh...there was some guy, the curve up here at Thacker where you come around almost at Pearle's, I think where that come there to come across that little bridge. uh...He stopped them and he told them, he said, "you don't want to go in through Matewan now," he said, "turn around and take her back," he was talking about my mother and uh...he did. And I remember my father telling me that during the time when they had uh...murdered these guys across the river here on the Kentucky side...I remember him uh...telling me somethings about that...

B: Uh-huh, was that the uh... Hatfield and McCoy Feud?

MW: Uh-huh, uh-huh, I remember him a telling how they murdered those boys across the river there...

B: Uh-huh...How did he know about that, do you know how he had heard about it?

MW: Well, my opinion it was from uh...my husband's people because they uh...you know sociated (associated) with each other a whole lot. And uh...my brothers and Woodrow's brothers worked in the mines, and it's just like men gettin' around, you know, talkin' things over. And I remember dad saying' one time that at Thacker, the men was up there talkin', gatherin' around at this place, just sittin' and talkin' and my dad had one dog. I don't remember the dog's name. But you didn't dare go up and slap him on the knee, you know, like you walk up and say, "Hey! How are you?" That dog would eat you up. So this other man had another dog and he...he said well that dog of yours is not no count, he(George Tudor) said "Huh, just wait and see," and he walked up and slapped him and my dad had to grab the dog, to keep from gettin' to him, but he keep on edging my father. And he said, "my dog can beat your dog and he said "huh-uh". So dad thought, "Well, I just let him found out for hisself." So he just said, "Well, if you want them to fight let them fight..." and my father's dog he had to pull him off of him or he would of killed the other dog, but nobody messed with Mr. Tudor when he had that dog around, they done learned there problems wasn't no good there.

B: Uh-huh. What did you call, the parents that raised you did you call them mom and dad or mother and father or?

MW: I called them mom and dad. uh...I know my oldest brother Frank Layne, after we...after I found out that I had been adopted, and I had met all of my family, uh...I was, before Mr. Layne passed away, uh...he asked me one time, he said "Marie, you know your family now, why don't you call him father or dad?" I said, "I can't, I said I don't know him, and I didn't, 'cause he gave me away when I couldn't do nothing for myself." I said, "I can not call him dad." The people that raised me is my family...My brothers and sisters and I got to know each other, we began...became to love each other, but I could not call him dad or father, I called him John. My two children, Gregory Allen and Michael Joseph, did get to met my real father, but Mike was so small, I don't think he even realized.

B: Your father, the man that raised you was uh...a miner through the period, when they were tryin' to get the union in, was he a union man?

MW: Uh-huh, and my husband Mr. Ward had worked, he went in when he was young. 'Cause he hang around a mines all the time. And they, I do remember him sayin' that they had a pulley. I guess that what you call it, would take them in from the bottom of the hill, pull 'em up to the top...And I remember, my father sayin' that Woodrow would bring their lunch and they would pull him up to the top, and he would sit and eat lunch, with the miners...And he did go in the mines, real early and when uh...we left here moving to West...Vir...Kentucky, Harlan, Kentucky uh...my mother remember her saying that he was drawing his first pay...And he would not leave, otherwise he would have went with us. Now, when I was a baby, this may sound strange but it's the truth, I got pictures to even prove it. When I was little, Mr. Ward, Woodrow would come up visit with my family, you know, my mother and father 'cause they all was raised together and he use to uh...help mother with me...you know hold me, mother accused him one time he pinched me to make me cry, just so he could hold me. Then in later years, we up and marry...Mr. Ward was older than I, but, that doesn't make any difference, as long as you have the love there for each other, that's all that counts. He was a devoted father, devoted husband... and to this day since he's passed away, I couldn't find another one like him. 'Cause the don't make them anymore.

B: So would you tell me again how you all met?

MW: Well, we uh...I had, Mother kept talkin' about the people in West Virginia and uh...so she and I came over and visited with uh...my husband's sister Carrie Osborne and we visited for two weeks, and during that time we meet. I had kept hearing of Woodrow...Mother telling uh...how Woodrow would help her with me. And matter of fact, I got a scar right here where uh...Halloween he scared me when I was small. He came in with a mask on and I fell and hit the stove, I got a little scar, and but uh...we was just attached to each other...and I told mother we had written a lot and he would come over on the weekends and visit at Harlan, Kentucky with us.. that's when we was kinda of getting serious you know. And I told mother, I said, "mother, I said uh...Woodrow's older than I am," I said, "I wanted to ask you if you think it would be alright if we got married?" We wanted to get married. Well that ticket...tickled my mother to death...'cause she knew Woodrow was a good person, so we got married...

B: Uh-huh, and what did he do for a living?

MW: He was a miner.

B: What company's [sic] did your husband work for?

MW: He worked uh... he did work for Thacker mines up there... that was right across where his sister lived up on the hill. Then he worked at uh...the mines down there in Williamson when they had it across the road. There up there on that hill...And then he worked for U.S. Steel, Old Ben. He retired from uh....Thacker U.S. Steel...

B: Uh-huh, What year was that?

MW: He retired in seventy...now the pension plan things says uh...set up for '74. Must of been right in there somewhere when he retired. 'Cause after he retired we left here and moved to uh...Newport News, Virginia(?)...But he's worked forty some years in the mines.

B: And you all went to live in Newport News is that?

MW: Yes, after he retired, my oldest son was up there working in the shipyard. After he graduated from school here he couldn't find a job. So he went up there and stayed with his Uncle Tom. And uh...he got him a job in the shipyard. and uh...We sold out and left here and uh...then my husband he became ill. and uh...February the 10th, of '86 he passed away and we brought him back to West Virginia, was his request.

B: DO you mind me asking what...what he died of?

MW: He died of a heart attack, uh-huh.

B: And how old were your sons, when your husband died?

MW: Uh...I'll have to give you their births, uh...oh, here it is Gregory Allen Ward was born first, fifteen, eighty-eight, '58 excuse me. And Michael Joseph Ward was born eight, nineteen , '59.

B: Okay. Was there a reason why you didn't have more children or?

MW: Uh...I had to have surgery uh...I could not, they had went in for a tumor they and they found uh...different things in there that the doctor said, I would have to have, while they had me open, go ahead and do that surgeon so they wouldn't have to do it later... So, I could not have any more children.

B: Okay, was that why, you...you were married for was it seven years before you had children?

MW: Now, I was thirty before I had my first son, I was thirty-years old and I had lost, four in the previous years. And almost lost Greg...

B: Uh-huh...Did you know why you had so many miscarriages, did they tell you?

MW: Well, the doctors told me that uh...they wouldn't develop. There was something about my system that they, they would not develop. And uh...I know before I uh...became pregnant with Greg, I told my husband I said, "it's been such a let down that I don't know whether I want to try to have any more children." Because it was a burden on my, you know, physically on my body. And uh...so,I went to church one night, which I'd been going to church. But this, specifically, night I went and it was in the Assembly of God, here in Matewan, which I use to be their pianist and work in the church faithfully...and Billy Tate at that time, was the assistant Pastor, which that was quite a while back. And I asked that I had a certain request, I wanted physically, that I wanted to uh...see if they would pray and that the Lord would help me. Which the doctor's had already told me, that I could not have any children. And we had planned on adopting a child. But uh...the Lord answered the prayer. I became pregnant with Greg and uh...about the eighth month the doctor had to put me in the hospital because he thought I was going to uh...you know, have a miscarriage, but I went through it just fine, I think the Lord for that. Then, in '59 here come Michael... and uh...I thank the Lord I had two children, uh...my mother did not get to see her grandchildren, my father Mr. Tudor, he uh...got to enjoy 'em magnificently. And uh...I just thank the Lord. He's been good to us. My husband and I have had hard times, during strikes, anybody knows what that is...but the Lord as really been good to us.

B: Would you uh...since I'm not from this area, what...when you say strikes are hard times can you explain why?

MW: Yes, I can, I know when you're raisin' uh...two children. Back then it didn't take as much as it does now. Or I can compare my son raising his two children. It takes more now than it did back then, but uh...he had to know how to manage. Now I know there was for a while there, the mines would be workin' good. And, as uh...you can see we didn't live high on the hog, but we lived comfortably. I would can up stuff, garden. We would have our little garden and uh...I wasn't one to go in and say, "I got to have this or I got to have that." If I wanted something I would talk it over with Mr. Ward and he would say, "why honey, go ahead and get it." Now, I remember one time, uh...Pearle Epling, was uh...going to get us a freezer, so I could freeze up stuff. And uh...my husband came in from work that night and he already had it on the order and Mr. uh...Epling was going to go get it. He said about two weeks, him and Woodrow would go and get the freezer. And uh...Mr. Ward, came in that night from work, and he said uh..."Honey," he said, "we can't get the freezer." I said, "why?" He said "it's coming a strike." I said "oh, my Lord," 'cause I went through many of 'em, I knew what that meant, that meant we would have to uh...tighten' up the belt. Now my children, were they had been gettin' candy and stuff. That would have to stop. And I would have to uh...manage the food different...I go to the store, I have to just get what we had to have. Other words, if I wanted to get, buy up steak, pork chops, you know, to last me for one payday to the next, I couldn't do it, I would have to get what I could. As far as the money went. Which we had to pay our bills. One thing Mr. Ward and I always did, we always paid our bills. But I know one time, they had uh...I told Pearle, I said, "we can't get the freezer," he said "why?" I said "the strike," he said "no, you'ins go ahead and get it and I...you can pay me when you can," I said "I won't do it that way..." Then I know one time, there was a strike came that uh...was really, that one was rough and Mrs. uh...Joe Paski, her husband was a boss and her husband had to work, regardless of the strike or not, but I know one evening she came down and her son, they played with my children. She's a dear lady, my kids always called her Aunt Dorothy. And Greg said, "Mama what are we going to have for supper?" I said, "we're going to have soup beans." He said, "I've eat soup beans, there coming out of my ears," I looked at 'em, I said, "son thank God, you've got the soup beans..." and she went to the store, bless her heart...She bought her some food. She bought chicken, she bought some steak, she bought weinnies, and you know, she divided that with me. She came down carrying this bag of food. And Greg and them run to her and, "Aunt Dorothy let me help you with all this." 'Cause they loved her dearly. And she said, "Greg, you won't have to eat soup beans tonight, you can have a hot dog." Now that tickled my children to death. They just jumped right straight up and down. But you know it's hard to go through, something like that...'Cause I know one time, I don't buy my children , I don't go to an excess with 'em. I buy 'em say one gift for Christmas and say that's it. But that year, I didn't know whether I was going to get them anything, could get them anything or not, but uh...the Lord always helps.

B: Okay, when...when you all were uh...married...or when you were young, and raising your children, did the wife control the finances, did your husband bring home his paycheck and give it to you or?

MW: Yes, uh...well, we had a system set up...He worked hard, bless his heart, and he would bring the check into me and I would set down, and I had a list, the rent, and you know the usual bills that you have and I would put them all down and I would take what he made and I would deduct each bill. 'Cause I keep a record even now, and if we had some left over we would splurge a little bit... not too often...we would take the kids, maybe take them out to dinner, or we would take 'em to buy'em a frozen custard, but I did all the bill paying, 'cause he worked nights, had to sleep of the day, and uh...he loved his second, and hoot owl shift, he loved hoot shift...But even after uh...we sold our house and left here, I did all the bills, because I thought, "now he works hard, there's no use in him havin' to worry about it..." And uh...after we got to Newport News, I uh...had to go to the hospital for seven...several major surgeries, and even then I would write the bills down and put them in a separate envelope, 'cause he didn't know how to pay 'em. He didn't know how to do 'em, which my son was there, Greg. He...he helped alot you know, but uh...we had a wonderful life together, we really did.

B: Where your parents like that, did your mother...?

MW: Yes, ma'am. My parents, I...I think that's where I...I guess you could say I inherited or I picked it up you know. Uh...they were like that, they uh...butchered their own hogs and chickens, turkeys, and they always had a garden, and they were like that, I think that's where I think now a days, that's where a lot of these young people should of(have) pay more attention to there parents... 'Cause your parents can teach you somethin'. 'Cause they've been through it. Now my children Greg, he has two children, and Michael he has two and expecting another one, and I've even tried to pass that on to them, about managing and take care. It counts in the long run...

B: Uh-huh...When did you come back to this area?

MW: Uh...let's see my husband died in '86, I came back here uh...between '86 and '87, I think it was for my brother, Frank Layne's funeral and which we had brought Mr. Ward back here for burial. That was his request. And uh...I came down here and saw David Smith and I said I want to come back home...He said uh...because Newport News didn't nothing left for me anymore...since Mr. Ward been gone, but still there's no place like home. And this is where I was raised, born, which I was raised a while in West...in uh...Kentucky. But this is still my roots, and my son Greg he just loves these mountains, I look for him to come back sooner or later...but I moved in here in '88 and uh...it's home...

B: Uh-huh... What uh...what is some of your first memories of Matewan?

MW: My first memory uh...is coming to uh...I guess it was the Silver Dollar, my husband took me in there, that was right after we was married, and uh...we had ate some, we had a delicious hot dogs, and uh...I remember him takin' me then to the drug store, Leckie's...And we visited there a while. And he took me to Nenni's and I met Mr. Nenni, Eddie Nenni's father and uh...also I met his mother, they're dear people. I loved them and there's so many things that uh...I did enjoy and uh...I met so many people and he introduced me to uh...Pearle Epling. Which Pearle Epling and my husband use to work together in the mines. And Matewan I wished could get back, to when I remember it...Because , I was in here when that big flood hit and I just did make it to Newport News. And the next morning, I was uh...doing dishes and they had the T.V. on and my husband hollered, "Lord, mom come quick," said, "Matewan's washed away..." well, I came back after that, visiting my son, Michael and uh...I had seen houses that were gone and where I seen friends live the house wasn't there...and I even took pictures. I have some of 'em here somewhere. And uh...I took 'em back and showed them to my husband and he said "I don't believe it", I said, honey it....they're not there, only thing you see now is trailers." Like down here in Hatfield bottom, different places, where there used to be houses. And uh...I wished Matewan could get back to where, we could get transportation in and out of here...'Cause this is a lovely place. The mountains, oh, I don't think there is no prettier mountains...But if they could get transportation in and out of here, I say people would come in...

B: Uh-huh...What did um...what did you all do for entertainment on the weekends?

MW: For entertainment? That's a good question. I'm glad you asked that, my children we would get up on Sunday mornings, we would go to church, we would come back home. If we didn't have dinner at home, we, as I say we would go out every once and a while. We would go back to church that night. I raised my children in the church. And during the week, like on Fourth of July, we would cook out in the back, have a good time...And we would take 'em sometimes, we'd take them to the park, and picnic. And sometimes we would go to Williamson, just to be riding around...there wasn't much to do. But it held families together. That's what counts. We enjoyed the kids, they have really enjoyed growing up... because we were a tight family. We had love for each other.

B: Did you all ever go to the movies?

MW: Yes, we would go to movies and uh...I know one we went to I didn't care for it. But, kids seemed to like it. We tried to take them to movies that we knew were for children. We didn't take them to see any old thing they put on the screen. 'Cause I didn't believe in it, but we took them to good movies. And we also we would have uh...churches would get together and go to there "young people" meetins'. And uh...I know my children were uh...this come into my mind too. My children were down here at the ball park when uh...that car ran over into all those children an Matney's daughter was killed, my children , my two boys was there playin' ball the two churches, were playing together which was a sad time. But we played ball and I would get out there and in the yard with them between uh...I remember that which was a sad time, but and we played ball, I'd get out in the yard with 'em only between David Smith lived there at that time there by us and uh...we would play badminton...We would play ball, just anything you know to pass the time.

B: Did your husband go to church services with you or?

MW: Yes, yes he went to church services, uh...he was very good about going to church. 'he uh...until he got saved he did not go to church. But uh...after he got saved he went to church regular. but I was the pianist and I had to be there ever night of the services, and he...sometimes he would watch the children on the weekend that I could go, you know and not have to take the children, but uh...after he got saved there wasn't hardly a night he wasn't there. He really uh...enjoyed going to church.

B: How did that happen, how did he...when he got saved did he, how did he become to being saved? Did he just go to church with you?

MW: Well, uh...they was having revivals there at the uh...Assembly of God I don't remember who was preaching at that time, you know the visiting minister...but I was uh...up at the piano playing. And they was having altaer [sic] call, and Aileen Phillips came over and uh...kindly shook me and she said "Hey Woodrow is at the altaer." I said, "I don't believe it," 'Cause for many years, I would say, "do you want to go to church?" And he'd say "no." And I wouldn't push him in other words, that's the wrong thing to do...But that night, he said that the preacher was holding the revival came up and shook hands with him, and said, "do you want to go up and pray with me." So he went up and prayed...and he gave his heart to God that night and that was the most thrilling night, I think of my life...'Cause I was playing at the piano and they...sister Aileen said, "Marie, Marie, Woodrow is at the altaer." And I turned to the song that says, "I will not be denied." And usually they would run away with me in the music...but that night I ran away from them, I was so, the spirit was so on me, I....I just let go...

B: How did you learn how to play the piano?

MW: Well, uh, there was a pastor there, one of our pastor's a Hagee, a Hager uh...he was giving lessons and I went through the number one book. But I could not play each the melody and the bass has two notes that each one, that you have to play at the same time, I couldn't do that...I said, "I see that you're not going to be able to learn that way," he said uh...I'm going to have to put you on Octagon Chord...So uh...he got me started out on it, but then he had to leave. He had to go somewhere else. I said, "there goes my music..." But, uh...I said, "Lord help me with my music..." and I just started picking it up. But I can't play I have to have music before me, I can't play, I don't play by ear. But, I...I'm uh...pianist now for uh...Church of God of Prophecy, Rev. Sam Sauls, pastor. I play there and on Monday nights down here (Smith Towers) we have services. Which that's a blessing for the people that can not get out to service and we had service last night and we had twenty-one present...and I think that...that is marvelous... but I don't play anything but religious music...I promised the Lord if he would help me with my music, I would play nothing but religious music and I've stuck to it and I will.

B: Is your...do you know much about your husband's family in this area?

MW: Well, most of his family has passed away...Uh...now when we were first...when we were married, his brother Marshall...he's had four brothers killed in the mines, there's uh...Sherman, Otis, Marshall and Raymond, those four were killed in the mines...And then he has the only sister is Carrie Osborne. Which she is deceased now. And he did have a half sister Lucy, which she lives somewhere down here in Hatfield Bottom. I don't know, his mother and his father I did not get to meet them...I don't know really too much, but I know all of his brothers and his father and my father Tudor, use to work together in the mines...So I don't really know much about his family.

B: I'm going to ask you about some of the uh...the people that are in, that were in this area in Matewan, just say if you know anything about them?

MW: Okay...

B: Do you ever hear of anybody, like your parents talk about the Buskirk family, say like the R.W. Buskirk family?

MW: Yes, I've heard them talk about it, but uh...I must of (have) been, not to old, because I don't remember too much about, I do remember the name...

B: Uh-huh

MW: now the names you know, I never forget a face, but names I forget, but now that I do.

B: Uh-huh...Okay, how about Sid Hatfield?

MW: Now, yes there is a good one, I have a picture of uh...that's not Sid I'm thinkin' about...But, I do remember them talkin' about him...But, as I say I can't remember too much, now if you would asked me maybe two or three, maybe four or five years back...I might could of cemented on it.

B: Do you remember anything at all, about the way they were talking, do you think...if you remember, do you think they liked him or..or?

MW: Well, I...I had peculiar parents uh...they didn't have no evil against nobody...and that's the way they raised me up, to not to hate nobody. My mother, I remember her saying this; She said, "if you can't get along with somebody, leave them alone." And, I...I've heard them talk about people, but I haven't heard them talk evil about people...My mother said one time, "if you can't say something good about somebody, keep your big mouth shut." Bless her heart she was a good one.

B: Um...What about she, your last...your husband's last name is the same as Ernest Ward, and I was...were they cousins or?

MW: Well, no I thought we were. When uh...Woodrow and I first got married. uh...'Cause uh...they would...they would kid me about uh...Ernest being a policeman and all you know. And uh...but, I asked my husband, he said "that is entirely a different set of Ward's..." no, we wasn't no kin.

B: Speakin' of...of police in Matewan what do you remember, do you remember any particular policemen?

MW: Well, I remember uh...Ernest. 'Cause I know one time, I was huntin' a dog for my children and he had a bulldog, and somebody told Mr. Ward. My husband said, "uh...she don't want to get that dog." 'Cause, I think that was just a one master dog, you know what I mean...

B: Uh-huh...

MW: Uh...I remember one time too, I member uh...I'm trying to think of his name, can't, it won't come to me, uh....I can't think of it, he's a Hatfield.

B: Was it Dutch?

B: This is Tape two of Mary Marie Ward interview and we were discussing some of the police officers in town, and you were talking about Dutch Hatfield?

MW: Dutch Hatfield. I remember one time I came down here to Matewan, to shop and I was shopping at the McCoys Supermarket at that time and uh...Dutch, I was coming to the car. I had a lot of groceries, and he said, "Mrs. Ward, here let me help you," and so he helped me put the groceries in the car. And he said, "by the way, he said, "I saw your son, the oldest one," which was Greg, ..."driving a car," and he said, "...I know you and your family," he said, "tell him to slow down," so that was a good point there. I told Greg and Greg said, "mama I will." We all liked Dutch he was friendly...nice person...Ernest kindly kids me sometimes always havin' uh...there at Montgomery's that I was coming to Matewan they was having a uh...some kind of a check and when I pulled up, he just kindly grinned and you're suppose to show your license and everything, you know, and he kindly grinned, he said, " ah...go on Mrs. Ward," said, "I know you..." That was...that kindly tickled me a little bit there.

B: Uh-huh...When was the Magnolia Fair, did...what do you remember about that?

MW: Well, I remember, the...I don't...I don't I never did go into uh...going to the fair too much. Because uh...my children went...and my husband would take them down there. And he would pick them up after, you know, go down after 'em. But, I never did go in for it too much because I don't like to get out with the bugs...They eat me up.

B: Your youngest son, would of (have) graduated from high school, in the year of the big flood...did that back him up in school?

MW: Uh...no he uh... he graduated before that big flood because uh... we had already moved up to Newport News at that time... Uh...I can't remember what year he graduated, but I know after he graduated, he couldn't find no job here, so he went to Newport News...and stayed with his uncle. And uh...he got a job there in a uh...a little sideway grocery store...he put his application in for the shipyard, and he went ahead and they called him, he got a job there in the shipyard and then graduated from apprentice... in a shipyard, then he uh...had to have surgery, which he had surgery before, the year that he graduated uh...it was a little, maybe a month before he graduated, uh...he had his surgery. Then he had to have a second one in Newport News. But he was coming up enough in the shipyard that he was to be a boss...But he had the second surgery and uh...now he is disabled...He cannot lift nothing over five pounds, and uh...they's nothing they can do for him. Which you know the sickness, but, it will take him some day. But, he's full of life...and uh...he's had a good life... I remember one time, talking about the flood, I remember one time uh...Wade Mitchum lived as you come across the uh...railroad crossing there, uh...I was trying to think of that teacher...Mrs. Simpkins...she lived around the corner...and they lived there. And that year, I had some people, opened my house that wanted to come in, they could come on in...and that was uh...a bad flood, but I never seen one as bad as the last one that we had, you know (1977). Because if I hadn't got back to Newport News, when I had, I might not of (have) gotten back. My youngest son, was still here I been...been visiting with him, making plans to sell our house, and uh...he had to go across the mountain, to a phone, a pay phone, and call me, let me know he was alright...He told me, he said, "mama you won't know Matewan," he said, "it's...it's, everything is gone..." Uh...he told me when it washed that big bridge out I couldn't believe that...I know I have a dear friend, uh...Joyce and Homer Carey...that uh...after we left here seemed like. See I lived across there from her for years and years, and seemed like to me that, we knew each was there if we needed each other, but seemed like after I left here, we drew closer to each other. And they's not a nicer family that I know of, than Mrs. Carey, 'cause Joyce and Homer really been a friend to me. So when we came into Mr. Ward's funeral they put us up there at the house, and you know, and they just, you couldn't beat her, she is a dear, dear friend, I love her dearly.

B: Huh... What do you remember about some of the earlier floods, I know there was a flood in '57 and '63?

MW: Yeah, uh...I remember them uh...I knew people had it rough I know these Mitchum's lived there. They got out, one time with just what was on their back. That must of been when that bad one came, but I do remember them uh...saying they would carry stuff upstairs and uh...I know it's uh....a flood is...is really disastrous. Especially, and when it hits you, it usually hits you in the night time...Or in the morning, you know. Where you can't see what you are doing. But uh...I know a lot of people, I knew that was in the flood, that uh...it just broke my heart. Well which there was nothing I could do, I could pray and you know, offer them shelter. But in times like that, they's not much people can do.

B: Uh-huh. Did this area, have good community spirit though when...when things like that would happen?

MW: Yes, ma'am, uh...this area the people are wonderful when something like that happens and I know when that last one happened, they told me that, none got killed...You know, like drown, or hurt which that's a blessing right there. Because usually when you have floods like that, you do have alot of deaths, people missing, but we've been fortunate here, because, as far as I know there were no deaths. And uh...I know they said they got a dog out of a tree, I remember them telling me that...and uh...I know they said they got a dog out of a tree, I remember them telling me that, and uh...there was some old man hangin' on a tree or something, and somebody got him...and...I mean when something like that happens, the people around here are really...they really have love for each other...and I know when you have death in the family, they...seem like they just come in and I know when we had Mr. Ward's funeral. We brought one of the boys that Greg used to work with in the shipyard, J.P. Bush, uh...I wanted him to be a pall bearer...and uh...he came in with us. Which he had never been in this territory before...and he just marveled at the mountains. And so when uh...we introduced him to Homer and Joyce Carey, they made him feel at home...and everybody that we introduced him to, made him feel at home and he went back and he told his wife, he said "Hey those mountain people," is what he called us, I said, "that's what we are," uh...he said "I never met, to be a stranger, I never met people to welcome me." We even took him to the uh...Woodrow's brother's wife widow. And uh...they just made him feel at home. And he said, "I just can't understand those West Virginia people". Well, that's what we are. And you go away from here, people they don't want to talk to you, I know after I moved to Newport News, I lived in a uh...a house just one neighbor there would associate, the rest they just don't associate. And they can see you, and you can see anybody on the street here in Matewan, "Well hello there, how are you?" And I mean it's, you can't find that nearly anywhere you go.

B: That's right.

MW: It's just the people that, they're just down to earth people, is all I can say. And I reckon that's why I love West Virginia. And I know if I...if I, I'm aware, and I've learnt, learning. Rather let me put it that way, to live with myself, I could live with my children, but they got there lives to live. And I've got mine, and I've had two back surgeries, I can't get around good...But I can't give up...and I think the Lord I have a Pastor and his family, I couldn't get to Sunday School and church, if they didn't come and get me. And that's my life now, is serving the Lord, working in the church...and helping anybody I can.

B: Uh-huh. Do you think that is what your mother would of wanted you to do in this point in your life? How did she raise you to be?

MW: My mother raised me up in a church...I didn't all the time go to Church of God, The Assembly of God, my mother raised me up in a Baptist, in Harlan Kentucky. And then uh...after I got married, I moved back here, uh...I went to the Assemblies of God, brother Tate was Assistant Pastor, at that time. And uh...my mother raised me up to care for people. If you see anybody in need help them if you can, some people won't let you help them... 'Cause I've tried, and if they won't let me help them I just say, "Lord have mercy on them 'cause there is nothin' else I can do..." but my mother raised me up to, know what's right, what's wrong. She raised me up to love people, which I try...and I know that my mother is in Heaven...because she never had one ill word to say about anybody and she lived her life, that she didn't have to tell anybody that she was Christian...'Cause her life showed it. And my father was the same way.

B: Uh-huh. Did they uh...I don't suppose you ever heard either one of them curse...

MW: No, ma'am...

B: or argue?

MW: They had a little spat every once in the while. They would disagree on something...But you didn't here no fussin' and cussin' and a hollering and a screaming, like people does today. Dad would say, "okay mom just have it your way and he would walk off..." and I think that's the way it ought to be. 'Cause it takes two to argue and two to fight. But now I never heard no uh...and I was raised up in a home where there was no drinkin'....and that meant a lot to me, because Mr. Ward did drink a little...but I told him one time, I said, "Honey it's either me or the bottle, now which one do you want?" And he gave up drinkin'. Which I thank the Lord for that.

B: Uh-huh...Alot of people...my grandfather was a miner and he'd drinked for years, on the weekends...and...and that was something they thought miners did.

MW: Well, now my husband, let me say this, let me put it straight, he never did bring a drink to the house...He would always go down in Matewan and he would get with his brother, Orville and uh...he'd play a little cards. But he would come home a little drunk, but he never did bring anything in the house. And I appreciated that, he...he thought enough of me and the children that he did not bring it in the house.

B: Uh-huh... Do you know why your father didn't drink, because that was...it...didn't seem like that was typical for his professional in miners?

MW: Well, now, mother she was a church goer, and uh...dad....dad was too, dad went to church when he could...and I don't think he...he just didn't...even now I know one time he had arthritis so bad, his doctor told him get you a fifth or whatever you call it. I don't even know what you call it of whiskey and put you some uh...coke berries in it...and keep shakin' it and drink that so much each day, you know, like maybe twice a day. But that would help that rheumatism and stuff. But as far as I know that's the only time and that was for medicinal purpose. But uh...he finally got down to he had to uh...take shots. That's when they had shots, later on, that was after my mother passed away, and he lived with us, and he had to go have shots for that...But uh...far as I know, he never did drink any.

B: Uh-huh...What about uh...for want of a better word the better word a home remedy? Is there anything like that? Did you ever hear of old ladies using herbs and things, to treat people when they were sick or?

MW: Now, I know mother use to fix somethin' when I had colds, and I had the flu alot...double pneumonia, she would always fix something put on me here,(on chest) but now what it was, but it sure did smell good, but that was home remedy, but now what is was I don't know...but I know it didn't....

B: Was is like a mustard plaster?

MW: Yeah, it was something (mixed) into a plaster that she would put on me and that would break that up...I remember that.

B: Okay, what about teas or things like that which ever...?

MW: Now, mother always did, uh... drink tea, I never did drink tea, 'cause I didn't like it...the only tea I drink now is this fruit mix, and I have to drink it cold, I can not drink hot tea...but mother always did use different teas, and drink teas, but I never could drink it...I'm like that with cocoa, I just don't like cocoa. (Both laugh)

B: Was...do you drink coffee or uh...?

MW: I drink coffee, I drink uh...diet soda pop, I drink water, I drink juices, that's all I drink. I don' drink, I don't smoke, I don't curse...and I don't dance. (Both laugh)

B: Dancing part of your religion or?

MW: No, I...I just never did go in for it...Now, when I was growing up in school, I had strict parents, uh...I was in the band and we go on band trips. I would have to stay with one of the girls, 'cause where, I lived, I had to walk one mile, two miles each way, you know, a mile there and a mile back from school and uh...I never was allowed to go to any parties or anything, I'm glad I wasn't...

B: Uh-huh...Do you...do you think having older parents, influenced you to have an older husband?

MW: Well, it could have uh...'cause I thought, I know one of my girlfriends, uh...that knew I went...knew I was going to get married, she made the remark, she said uh..."well he's older than you" I said, "well, let's look at it this way," I didn't, it kindly made me a little, I got my feathers up, I guess you could call it..."I'd rather me a old man's darling, then a young man's slave." And that put her in her place right there, she knew that I was determined to do it, and there wudn't nothin' she could say to keep me from it. But he was wonderful, he...he, I couldn't find, a person now that would had been as good to me and my children, than him.

B: Had...had he married before you?

MW: No, hun-huh, no neither one of us had been married before.

B: Did he ever tell you why he waited so long to get married?

MW: Well, yes he did, it's...it's, it's maybe a little comical, but uh...as I say I have a picture here of him of holding me on the steps when I was a baby, at...at Thacker. And he told my...I don't remember which brother that was, but he told one of his brothers, he said, "they said somethin' about him gettin' married," he said he always called uh...my mother and father mom and dad. 'Cause he'd see...would come and eat alot at their place and they took care of him and you know. And uh...he told his brother one time, he said "mom and dad is raising me a wife," and sure enough, we up and we got married, now that might sound a little off, but that's the way it was.

B: Okay, well, thank you for talking to me today, can you think of anything else, that you would like to talk about?

MW: Well, I hope that Matewan, can uh...come back and it'd coming back they uh...I can see a lot changes since, I've been back here, like the mall they're gettin' up there, and the sidewalk, yes! our sidewalk, I've really enjoyed that...and uh...I see Matewan is improving and uh...as I say it would be better, if they could get some transportation in and out of here. Because, I like to go visit my children, and it's so far to get from here to Charleston, you have to hire somebody to take you and when you come back you gotta hire to come and get me, and uh...if we had a bus from here to Williamson and then one from Williamson to over to Charleston to somewhere, uh...maybe a train...I'd like to ride on a train again

B: Uh-huh...What do you remember riding on a train?

MW: Oh yes!, I'm glad I brought that up, my son and I Gregory was, he was small, I had one of those little uh...night cases and I had to set it in the uh...train seats so he could sit on to look out the window...We went visiting uh...Aunt Carrie, uh...at Newport News, first time we been up there and uh....my doctor thought it be best I'd get away. My father passed away, and I almost had a nervous breakdown. The main thing to do is get away awhile, and Woodrow kept Mike, the youngest son. And I went during his vacation, so he wouldn't have to miss work, and he said, "the doctor said go away a while," and Woodrow said, "go visit Carrie and Uncle Tom. And Greg and I went and we really enjoyed the trip, which I had rode on the train from Harlan Kentucky to Knoxville, Tennessee to Nashville, Tennessee that's where my mother's...aunt my aunt, people lived. And uh...I miss the train...I really do, and my grandchildren as far as I know has never been on a train. Now, we brought them in here on time and they had never seen a tunnel, Greg drove by down here at Hatfield Bottom where that tunnel is and he stopped and said "you see that whole in there, Chris said "yeah what's that?" and Greg said said "that's a tunnel, for the trains, it goes through that end and comes out the other one" and uh...I mean uh...it would be nice. I'd just love for a train or...something get back in here that we could you know...do a little traveling...which I'm gettin' up in the years, I'll be sixty-two, if I live to see January...and uh...it's hard for elderly people to get around that don't have a car. I mean my pastor and his family they take me to the store uh...brother Saul, takes me to the doctor, if I got to go anywhere, all I have to do is pick up the phone. Say, which I put gas in the car you know, I don't ask them to take me for nothing because I don't believe in it. I believe if a person is willing to help you, you've got to help them. And it's uh... I know they took me to Williamson, uh...to get a fan, 'cause I can't stand a air conditioner...it uh...clogs me up and uh...I took them out to dinner, we had a nice dinner and I went and got a few groceries and I gave them money for gas, I'd handed the money over the seat, he'd say what's that for, I said that's gas and uh...they don't want to take it, but I look at it this way every time those wheels goes you got to put gas in the car.. Don't it? Ain't going to run, and he's, they been a blessing to me since I've been going to their church. uh...They were prayin' for a piano player and I was prayin' for a church go to. And uh...I had been going to the Assemblies when I first came here, but uh...I didn't feel that...that's where the Lord wanted me. At that time I couldn't use want little talent I had, and I feel if God gives you a talent, you better use it. And one Monday night, one night, no, excuse me, I was sitting down stairs and Brother Saul and them was visiting somebody or something and he walked over and said " I hear you play the piano?" and he introduced hisself and he said "I have church down here every Monday night." Which I (Ward) knew that and uh..."would you mind comin' and playing for us this Monday night?" I said, "Well, I haven't touched a piano in five years, 'cause see I sold my piano, when I left here and I hadn't touched a piano in five years, and I said let me pick out the songs and which I will be practicing in the mean time, but uh...we made it alright and then I started playing for them up at church. Since their pianist passed away and the Lord has just put me where I can be used...And that's what I want to be done, I want to be used. Working for the Lord and helping people.

B: Okay, thank you for talking to me today.

MW: Your welcome sweety, your awful sweet. Would you like something to drink?

Matewan Oral History Project Collection