Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Bill Stewart Interview

Becky Bailey: For the Matewan Development Center, Becky Bailey sixth interview with Bill Stewart on 1989, in the town hall Mr. Stewart you were saying that earlier today that you came to this area in the 1940. Where were you from or-iginally?

Bill Stewart: Well, I was born in a community called Surosa which doesn't exist any more. That uh...present location of Matewan High School. Which was a coal mining camp at that time. And of course the community doesn't exist anymore now. It's gone.

B: What happened to the community there?

BS: Well the uh...coal mining worked out and uh...the company sold out. Sold houses to individuals and they gradually disintegrated to nothing.

B: Ok.

BS: And then when they were looking for site for the high school they uh...tore the rest of what was left down. The last house they tore down was the house I was born in.

B: Oh goodness. When were you born?

BS: Nineteen, thirty-two.

B: You were a Depression baby then?

BS: I guess you could say that. I guess you could say that.

B: Had your parents been married long when you were born?

BS: That I don't really know. I don't really know when they were married. They...I'm not the baby of the family by no means I have uh...older sister.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: So I...I really...I'm really not sure about that. Uh...

B: Were they from this area, your parents?

BS: No my parents are not from this area. My father is from Kenova uh...West Virginia, and my mother was from Point Pleasant.

B: Do you know how they met?

BS: Uh...he was a bookkeeper at uh...the community up the river called McCarr. It's now called McCarr. It was called New Alma at that time. And she worked as a bookkeeper for the uh...in the courthouse in Williamson. And some way they...they got together some way I don't know exactly how. What the details are on it.

B: When you say your father was a bookkeeper when they met, what kind of books did he keep? Was he...

BS: He kept the books for New Alma Coal Company.

B: Okay. How much money did he make as a bookkeeper? Do you know?

BS: I don't have any idea. Wasn't much in those days, they didn't pay much.

B: Was his work steady during the Depression?

BS: Oh yes...oh yes he worked all the time.

B: Ok.

BS: He used to go out working up there at New Alma. He worked for Krogers over here in town back in the '20's when there was a Kroger grocery store here in town.

B: What did he do there?

BS: He was just a stock clerk is all. He was just a young man then. He just came up here from Kenova because this was some what of a beginning to be a booming area at that time. There was a lot of employment. Of course you speak of wages then and uh...a dollar was a lot of money at that time. And uh...I guess down around Kenova which is out side of Huntington there wasn't a whole lot going on. He came off the farm.

B: Okay.

BS: He wasn't a college graduate. He did graduate from high school believe it or not.

B: Ok.

BS: And uh...I guess what bookkeeping knowledge he had he learned himself.

B: How about your mother? Did your mother graduate from high school?

BS: She graduated from Williamson High School. She didn't have any college either. But she kept uh...I'm not quite sure really she did some form of book work in the courthouse down there I'm really not quite what exactly she did. It was something to do with the bookkeeping part of the...of the county at that time.

B: Did your mother work after your parents were married?

BS: No...no she stopped working at that time.

B: Okay. Do you know what year they were married in?

BS: No I don't...I have it at home but I'm...I'm not well on...on dates.

B: Ok.

BS: It was some where in the twenties but uh...

B: Okay, like I told you before Mr. McAllister said that uh... your parents I believe bought some land that had been part of the Stony Mountain Coal Company land.

BS: Well let me tell you about my dad.

B: Ok.

BS: Uh...cause my mother...she is...in those days you know most of the women just went along with the men. The women didn't work except keep house, have children and so forth. He uh...he went from owning...or being bookkeeper at uh...New Alma over here to where I was born. This community I mentioned while ago is nonexistent uh...it's called Surosa technically. But really in those days it was called New Howard. Uh...it was New Howard Coal...Coal Corporation owned that camp...uh...company down there and he...he went from New Alma to uh...New Howard. Again as a bookkeeper.

B: Right.

BS: And from there he migrated on down the river to the community called Merrimac. At which there was a Merrimac Coal Company at that time. And he kept books for them. Uh...some where in the late thirties I'd say uh...'35, '36, '37, him and another gentlemen uh...bought a business in Williamson. A restaurant uh...???? And everybody they would recognize the name of Brunswick and uh...they operated that for several years and he kept his job as a bookkeeper. And the other gentleman was manager of the company store at Merrimac. And they run that for several years and then this property here in Matewan become available. Uh...he bought the property from Dan McKinsey him and another man not the same one he was in business with but another gentlemen a man by the name of Ed Stanley. And they went into business. Uh...after they bought the property from Dan McKinsey and the area they mined to start with was in the uh...the head of Warm Hollow right here in town. They entered the business and they started mining coal up in the uh...the head of Warm Hollow. They started a pony mines. I don't know whether your familiar with the pony mines or not.

B: Is that where they used the ponies to pull the cars?

BS: They had...they had four ponies small ponies that pulled the uh...the coal cars out of the mines and dumped them over in a little shoot affair and we had a truck that would come and pick the coal up the shoot and haul it down the hollow and right out to where I...where I live now. They had a place they could dump it right straight in the car. There was no processing no nothing. It was just straight in the car. Uh...I think the employed to begin with is something like four or five men something like that. It wasn't a big operation. Uh...but now that was old timey mining this was the use of the breast auger to alter the coal uh..we had...I think we had two men that went in at night and auger the coal and shot the coal the next day they had two other men go in and load it and uh...bring it outside and men were paid by the car at that time.

B: Uh-huh. Ok.

BS: Uh...

B: Now is that similar to being paid by the ton? Is that...

BS: It's the same process except uh...those cars held about five tons of coal. You say you mentioned by the ton well they...at that days they paid by the car. And the car consists about five tons of coal. Uh...and I think they got something like a dollar, dollar and a half something like that.

B: For a car?

BS: For a car. Uh...I'd still got some at home. They used to have the little uh...metal tags that had the mens number on it. And when...if he loaded the car of coal he'd put his number on the end of the car and when it went outside he was credited with loading that...that car of coal. And of course sometimes those numbers got shifted. But we had some men that could load any where from five to six to ten of those a day. And your talking about something like uh...thirty...thirty-six inch coal. People who actually just laid down to load the coal. So that's how we got started in the coal business. And that was called Matewan Fuel Company. That was the name of the company.

B: Now who...who was this coal sold to? Was it sold...

BS: Alright we brought it out...he uh...he brought it out dumped it in the railroad car and it went some of it went to A.T. Massey in uh...Norfolk. Some of it was shipped to east to uh...can't think of the name of the company I've got that somewhere home but. Some of it went uh...west to somebody...I forget who the company was and a lot of it went to Lambert's Point in Norfolk. And a straight...Oh I know S. J. Paterson Company was the other company.

B: Ok.

BS: And a lot of it was just...and all of it was just shipped straight out of Matewan. It was not uh...processed by anybody uh...it just...it was never stopped between here and Norfolk. It just tied into the railroad and it was gone.

B: It wasn't washed or...

BS: It wasn't washed or it wasn't treated it didn't go through any processing plant. And nothing 'til it got to Lambert's Point. And I think the other way it went down some where around Portsmouth or Ironton or some where like that. And uh...oh it was a tremendous week was a couple of you know big gondolas for the coal that was worth. That was a tremendous week.

B: Yeah.

BS: But uh...from there...this was in about 1940...from there uh...we moved on around...I say we, the family we moved the next coal company came right on around the hill. Right over here right behind town. Then we become modernized we put a conveyor line in. And uh...even had air blowing in the mines and all this fancy stuff. Uh...the employment went up to something like oh maybe thirty...thirty-five people. We mined the coal in and uh...it was shipped out side on a conveyor line right straight down over the hill and for a while we dumped it right straight in the car like we done before. And then we got fancier and we come up with a little processing plant to uh...we didn't clean it oil it or anything but it...we did start sorting out the uh...the coal a little bit and we started shipping different types of coal. And this went on 'til about oh uh...the late forties I guess '48, '49 maybe. Then we worked all that out. And then they moved again. Believe it or not and they moved down further down the road and...and uh...went up behind where...what is now Hatfield Bottom.

B: Right.

BS: Then we were super mechanized then. Oh we had everything then. All the fancy material all the fancy equipment. Uh...and I guess the employment then was up around sixty or seventy-five people. Worked three shifts a day uh...that's when I went for work for the coal company. After they went down there I...when I was a senior in high school I weighed coal at night and uh...all paid...cause see what we mined down there was hauled back up the road tipple up here and then put through the tipple. And uh...I was...when I was a senior I weighed coal at night. And saw that the coal got put in the car and so forth. And I was paid union scale believe or not. And you ought to know what the union scale was at that time?

B: What was it?

BS: It was fourteen dollars and five cents a day. Big money.

B: Now when you say it moved around, would your father buy the land that he moved to or did he...

BS: It was all part of the original land.

B: Oh okay, so he had bought the...the....

BS: Well when they bought it they bought it all and uh..as I say in those days it was uh...you start on shoe string and then as they made money of course then they were working some of these sections out and they said well it's more lucrative to more over here and we can get a little more equipment a little more men where we can put out a little more coal and when we moved around the...the final move around here was during 1950 the coal boom when you could sell anything you'd get that looked like a lump of coal. And uh...cause I remember it well I was weighing coal at night and uh...this side track we were putting coal into uh...the cars only held so many cars. And at that time he started buying coal too. From some people across the river over in...over around Buskirk there was a company ran over there. And in those day as I said it was a coal boom and everybody that could stick a whole in the ground somewhere to get a lump of coal out they all went into the business. And now the trucks you see on the roads today we didn't have those kinds of trucks. Uh...we had a man to haul our coal...it came from North Carolina up here and brought two big trucks and we thought that was fantastic. It was the biggest thing around here. Because all the others had little small vehicles. But anybody that could load coal...a load of coal we would buy it from them. So when the uh... the tail of uh...track all the cars we had would be full uh...we had enough truck...trucks and so forth setting and waiting to fill as soon as the...the shifter would come pull out the other one... the full one and put the empty ones in we had enough coal sitting there to load out and then we'd sit 'til the next day. Because it in...in that time they would take anything they could get their hands on. Nobody cared whether it was Alma or Winifred Suttles or whatever seam it was anything in the coal would sell. And most all that was A. T. Massey at Lambert's Point. But uh...those were good days. The men were all happy everybody made good money around here. The big cor...the only big corporation that we had at that time was the Red Jacket Coal Corporation. And they were doing the same thing. They were...everything they could mine they were...they were taken out of here.

B: Looking backwards now do you know uh...what the reasons were behind this boom? Do you think it was the...Post war.

BS: Well I don't know really. I can't remember it. It seems like for two or three years there, there was just a big demand for coal. Uh...oil was not a big item at that time. A lot of things today that are heated with oil and you know and solar and all that was all done by coal in those days. A lot of exporting going on in those days too. Most of that...that we shipped to Lambert's Point went over seas. And uh...see it was sort of the uh...the late '50 ...the early part of the '50 see was sort of the tail end or really after the second World War. And there was a big demand for coal and so forth in Europe. And so uh...but I think that lasted two or three years or something. Uh...the bottom dropped out. The coal business has always been a cycle type thing. Your high and your low and uh...your up and your down. And uh...that just happened to be one of those times. Right at the very end of the coal boom he sold it. And the strange thing about it after he sold it to the two men that bought it they never operated a single day.

B: Why was that?

BS: We really could never understand why. They just never operated in it at all. There was still coal in there. But maybe they thought...maybe it was not cost effective or something in that time. And the strange thing about it the men that bought it were the Loftis brothers. And I don't know if you've heard of the Loftis brothers or not. And you've been to South Gate Mall? Over on Pond Creek the shopping center.

B: Is that the...the shopping center...

BS: It's the one that's up on the hill...

B: Right.

BS: Have you seen the big building...the big home?

B: Yes.

BS: Well that's the Loftis home.

B: Ok.

BS: The Loftis brothers now are millionaires.

B: Ok.

BS: And this mines he sold was sold to the Loftis brothers. And they never operated it the first day.

B: So when they bought it they...they shut it down?

BS: They just...we really never could understand what happened it. Cause when my dad at that time...well what the heck you know I got rid of it...it's their problem you know.

B: Yeah.

BS: But they never did operate the first time. And since that time there's never been any coal taken out of that mountain.

B: Uh...What year was this do you remember?

BS: This was nineteen and I'm trying to think...this would have been about nineteen, fifty-two, fifty-three something like that.

B: Ok.

BS: He sold it when I...I went to college. It was sold...he sold it out then.

B: When did you go to school...when...I mean where did you go?

BS: I went to West Virginia University.

B: You did. Did you graduate?

BS: No. The Korean War interrupted that. I've never been back since.

B: Did you serve in Korea?

BS: No. I went...I served in France. But they were drafting everybody coming and going at that time.

B: So you were drafted and...and you were sent to France? Was that...where you... BS: Yeah...Yeah I spent all my time uh...eighteen months of my two years spent in France. Which pleased me I didn't want to go to Korea.

B: How...how was Korean looked on here? I mean how did people view the war?

BS: I don't know I...really I was just a kid at that time. I uh...I think everybody considered the Korean...the Korean War to be a war. It was not like Vietnam. Uh...there wasn't dissension and so forth you know should we go fight for the country at that time or so forth. I don't think we had any of that. Uh...not anything comparable to the Vietnam War. You know there was...has been a lot of problems with the Vietnam War should we have been there or shouldn't we have been there you know uh...this type thing. But I wanted to go back to the coal mining thing before you leave it there. With the coal mines down here we did actually operate what was considered to be a company store. And that's uh... one of the things that I know people are...are very curious about the company store set up. And it literally was a store where you could buy anything you wanted. There was no need to go to K-Marts, which didn't exist at that time, or any of these fancy stores, because what ever you wanted we'd get for you. If you walked in to day and said my refrigerator went out last night I need a refrigerator tomorrow we'll have you a refrigerator? Uh...we went through the company store bit during the Second World War we went through all the rationing processes and uh...I still got coupons at home I still got the tokens they used. I can remember very well uh...me and my dad getting in the car and driving all the way to Huntington to buy meat. Because it was the only place we could get any meat and we went to three different meat packers to bring meat back for the week. And as soon as we would get here and get the meat cut up...in those days we cut it ourselves. And get it package up and they miners would come in at three o'clock in the afternoon and the meat would be gone in an hour. And there would be no more meat 'til the following week. Uh...cigarettes we...I can remember packaging those. Uh...sugar...we got sugar in a hundred pound bags and have to bag it up so that everybody would get an equal proportion of it. Uh...I can remember the...the chewing gum had to come from the factory. There was no chewing gum to be bought from a wholesale house. Uh...the list just goes on and on and on but it was literally a company store and anything you wanted we would either get for you or we'd find it. And as I told you this morning I could name you any number of men that never ever drew a payday. Because we used to advance 'em some money one of the best ways is the funniest thing....one of the best deals that we had going at that time was uh...the men would come in on Saturday didn't have any money and they would uh...buy cartons of cigarettes. And they would bring them up in town and sell them. Probably fifty cents less than what they paid for them. Then my dad would come back on Monday and buy 'em back from the other people that they were sold to and take 'em back and sell them again. It just...it was just a way of life it wasn't that you know... it wasn't a thing that you were really ripping anybody off or cheating anybody it was just the way things were done. And it wasn't a uh...cheating or a rip off type of arrangement that they was always overdrawn or over drafted or overspent what they had made. It was just a way of life. Uh...every coal company I think around here did such...the same thing. Although we never used scrip.

B: Right.

BS: Now we never got into the scrip thing.

B: Uh-huh. Just so that we can have that on record, would you explain for the interview's sake what scrip was?

BS: Well scrip was a form of money used by the coal companies. It was issued by the coal companies. The big coal companies used it as a form of...of trade. Uh...when you were paid you uh...had your choice you could either be paid in scrip or you could be paid in uh...currency. And the scrip was used in the stores, company stores especially. As a way of buying your groceries or buying your dresses or your shirts or what ever may be. Then here in town some places in town even took the scrip. What they would do they would except it and then go back to the company and exchange it for money. Uh...the scrip disappeared in, I don't know some where around in the '40's somewhere uh...uh...as the coal companies I think got a little more modern you know and a little more technical uh...it was easier to uh...either write a check or uh...as do as my dad did pay 'em in cash. He used to uh...come and get pay roll from the bank and...and make up little envelopes exactly what he owed them and paid them in cash. Your bigger companies uh... they went to the check system. And...and scrip just is sort of disappeared off the market.

B: Do you remember what companies in this area did use scrip?

BS: Red Jacket Coal Corporation did. There was scrip from Thacker mines. Uh...there was scrip from Majestic Collieries up in Majestic uh...there was uh...I forget what the company name was, there was a company in Freeburn they had scrip. Well all of these down the river did. Merrimac Coal Company did uh...New Howard had, New Alma had scrip. I've got some of it. There been some pieces I haven't ever been able to find uh...the one that is really not available too much is...is the Red Jacket for some reason the scrip from Red Jacket seemed to of just disappeared. Although I could assure that there is some people that worked for them up there that probably still have some. But it's scarce. It really is and those that have got are not turning it loose.

B: Right.

BS: Because it really is...those are really collectors' items.

B: I have one question getting back to how the company store could get anything that somebody needed uh...when you would say somebody wanted a refrigerator part, would you and your father go to a place where you could get it and try to buy it as a private citizen or would you say we're...we're representing a company store?

BS: No we bought it as a company store.

B: Ok.

BS: See uh...in...in those years we had more suppliers here. That fed this area than we do now. I'll give you some examples of uh...uh...we...we had people like Persinger Supply, Williamson Supply, Ben Williamson, and the list goes on and on. That supplied...well in, like in the grocery line, for example, we had about four wholesale groceries. And they literally...they would send a salesman in one time a week to sit down with you and you know and sit down and really talk to you about what you really need in your store and really you know sell it. Today the order takers they come in and they give you a book you pick out what you want and they go to the telephone and compute it you see. But we had a world of suppliers. But now those people are gone. You take, like Persinger Supply, in those...in those years...what ever you wanted Persinger Supply, or Williamson Supply, or some of those they had all these things. And were tickled to death to send it to you. If you wanted to buy two hammers for example they'd sell you two hammers. You talk to Persinger Supply today they won't talk to you. They don't want nothing to do with a little store. Uh...your "mom and pop's" what they call today or the small company store or thing like that they don't want that any more. They don't want that business.

B: Why is that do you think?

BS: Well it's just a trend of business, it's the trend of corporations they don't want to deal with the small man anymore they thinks it's uh...counterproductive it's uh...not cost effective to deal with a small man. So that's why today a lot of your little 'mom and pop" stores grocery along the side of the road have folded up cause the can't...see they can't get supplied uh...at a cost that they compete with uh...Food City in Williamson...Or uh...K-marts if it's something in that line. Or even in a clothing store. And see most of your company stores all sold clothing. Anything from shoes or to your name.

B: Do you remember any of the brand names that your father may have carried in his store of any of the...

BS: No we sold Iron Age uh...I remember we sold Iron Age shoes. Uh...uh...I'm talking about the work shoes. We showed...we sold Kipling Brothers shoes uh...I don't remember some of the names of the clothing so forth. I know we...refrigerators and stoves and things like that. Uh...most of those were the same brands you have today like General Electric uh...oh some of the old names like Crawsley and some of those that uh...

B: That's a good place for me to pause. Okay. I supposed uh...one question going back to some of your father's business activities I...I thought of a question. When he would uh...leave one coal company and go to another do you know any of the details of that would he just get a better offer working at...at another...company?

BS: I think most of them were better offers. And maybe...and as I say money was like it is today I'd say probably paid him maybe another five dollars a month or something I...I...we never really discussed those things. I was just a kid at the time and uh...when he shifted around like that...but now it wasn't a situation where you know he went for work for New Alma and worked for a month and then moved the next. These were you know over a period of several years. And I'd say that most of them were probably a better deal or little more money uh...all these...in those days there all of them offered you company houses to live in which you don't have this today at all. Uh...it might have been a better house better uh...maybe closer to town I don't know. It could have been any number of reasons.

B: Okay. And another question I've heard the expression over in McDowell County that the miners would call their work clothes bank clothes. Have you ever head that...

BS: Yes that's....

B: Could you explain that for me what bank clothes meant?

BS: Well bank clothes is considered to be mine clothes...clothes mainly because of I guess their referring to the coal bank concept here where uh...of course when you talk about mine clothes in those days mine clothes were filthy clothes. Now today they work in the mines and they come out, they look pretty presentable. But in those days when they mined coal a lot of that was in low seam coal where they literally laid down. Or maybe on their knees if it was a little higher. And uh...I'd say it's a probably reference to the coal bank idea where really they're just dirty clothes. They're clothes that they worked in. And uh...see they used to refer to the hat that they wore as a bank hat. Now I'm talking about the cloth hat. The cloth hat with the carbide light. But which... that's what we used in Warm Hollow that's...that was the still the thing because they used the breast auger to drill holes. We didn't have any electric drills or no...hey we never pinned the coal we never put roof bolts in any we didn't do nothing like that. We did use some timber. But there was nothing fancy about it. And they did those men in those days they...they used the uh...the cloth type hat with sort of a hard bill on it. And the hard bill, you know why the hard bill was? Because they had the carbide lamp which could drip on the hat...On that hard bill instead of dripping on the hat on something cloth. And uh...they used to call those bank hats, bank clothes it has no reference to financial institutions at all.

B: Okay. Lets see. Did you ever...were there ever accidents that happened?

BS: As long as my dad was in business himself we never had a fatality that I...that I know of. Now we had some minor injuries we...I don't think we ever had any slate falls or anything like that. Uh...the men were fairly careful at that time. Uh...we didn't have a lot of rules to follow. Uh...there was not a whole lot of rules although we did have a mine inspector. At that time it was a state mine inspector it was no federal inspector. I'm... I'm telling you wrong. We had a federal inspector but there was no state inspector.

B: Ok.

BS: And they didn't come around but once a year. Cause I can remember the little book he used to carry. And it had little circles in it and if he found anything wrong he'd shade the little circle in red. And about the only thing they could ever find wrong with us is maybe we weren't storing the mine caps in the right place. And little minor things like that. Uh...the men worked long days. And uh...I think they worked...(thought stopped here)

B: The work experience uh...did...how did the uh...larger coal companies around here feel about the smaller private organizations like...like...

BS: There was no...there was no problem with the little man. They...the big ones like Red Jacket and Majestic Collierie they had all they could do and the little man didn't hurt them any at all. There was no process you know well, "let's buy them out and get rid of them", it wasn't...this...this buy out thing and con-solidation into the bigger corporations only come about here in the past eight or ten years I would say.

B: Were...was your father in competition though with...with getting men? I mean did...did he compete....

BS: There was no shortage in men. I'll tell you what it was. A lot of the men when worked and they started here and it stayed with him the whole time and they came from Merrimac when he left Merrimac. He brought a lot of them with him when he came. 'Cause Merrimac was...was fairly close to working out. And the closing up and so a lot of them when he came up here they just followed right along one by one they would drift in and ask him if he had a job. And uh...uh...there wasn't any shortage of men. A lot of help around. And a lot of good miners then. I mean they weren't concerned whether they were getting paid you know whether they were gonna get their birthday off, you know, the things they have today. That...that wasn't no point of concern to them. They were interested in working, having a good time with their family and... and that was life.

B: How did uh...uh...I heard you say before that you were paid union scale when you would over see the weighing of the coal. Was your fathers mine's...was it a union mines.

BS: Oh yes it was a union mines. About...in fact about everything here was union then. I don't think it was anything that was non-union at that time. Everything was union.

B: How did your father feel about the union? Did he ever talk to you about...

BS: He didn't like John L. Lewis. Because he didn't like to pay the royalty on the coal to the United Mine Workers. See they...they at that time they were paying royalty. So much a ton on the coal. Uh...I can remember him well sitting at home talking about the royalty going into the mines hospitals. Now I don't know whether your familiar with that or not. But the royalty from the coal in this area built these hospitals around here. The one that's...the Appalachian Regional in Williamson. Was in a miners' hospital. And I think what made him uh...as mad as I ever I think I saw him was the day they sold the hospitals, and he said there went all the money that he'd help put in there. It was sold out to the what is now Appalachian Regional. And. uh...he wasn't what you would say anti-union but he was not a rabid union man either. He was...in those days I think it more necessary evil uh...there not...was not in those day like it is now by no means. They very seldom have a union meeting. They only had one really bad only really bad rabble rouser at that time...And he lived down at uh...what is now Rawl Sales is now. That community was called Lobata. But in those days it was called Gates. And...and only had one rabble rouser and he was...he lived down there. They had some words on a couple occasions. His partner probably was a little more rabid than my dad was. Cause you see the agreement he had with his partner was my dad would run the store, would keep the store going and do all the book work shipping the coal and everything and the other man was to mine the coal. That was the partnership arrangement. And he was a redheaded hot-headed man. And uh...he was..he was a good man but he didn't have much for the union. He didn't have much for people who sit and watched the clock you know and say well it's uh...three o'clock in the afternoon quit time is three thirty its time to start outside. He didn't think much of that. In fact he took a watch away from one man up here on the hill came outside and threw it over the hill. He said now watch your watch. Uh...he was just...he was just a fiery type person. But he was a good miner he knew to how mine coal. But uh...my dad I...I don't think really he never really was...got irate or rabid or anything like that about the union. Because the union was not that...that way at that time. Except he didn't like John L. Lewis.

B: How about the men that worked for your father did you ever hear the miners at that time talking about John L. Lewis?

BS: No. There wasn't that uh...there wasn't that much to say at that time. Now they...they had a lot of up in the Red Jacket area. Because it was bigger out fit. The little small mines they were... they were more...like I say they were more inter-ested in mining coal and getting paid and spending it and...and having a good time.

B: Is there anything else that you would like to...to talk about the coal industry before we move on?

BS: I don't...I..

B: Ok.

BS: There's all kinds of stories but you know to try to think of them.

B: Okay. Well we can always...we can come back and do it...

BS: I mean there's all kinds of things that pop in your mind because uh...stories about the company store being here and the night the store burnt and all kinds of crazy thing like that.

B: How did that happen?

BS: Well I don't know uh...it caught on fire down there one night and uh...they called Daddy and told him, and said you'd better come down I think your store is on fire. Well see it was just across the railroad. Down here...it was right there where the crossing is. And there was a train on the track we couldn't get a fire truck to it. The train would not move. They ended up running the hose underneath the railroad trying to get water to it. Well any way we couldn't do anything for it we stood down there and watched it burn. But every once in a while you'd hear a pop and a crack and so forth and dad standing there he said well those are cans of beans exploding or something like. That wasn't what it was, we had just got a shipment of mine caps.

And the...they office was in the back of the store and they were sitting in that office. And what we were listening to was those things pop. And see uh... it was illegal to have those and when that...that's the same thing as dynamite you see and that's...they were supposed to have went straight to the mines. And we had a gang of people hanging around there and so he kept talking about all those cans busting and so forth. And it wasn't, it was the mine caps blowing up and so. Just stories like that. Uh...about the big safe we had in there and he thought everything we had in it was protected. We let it cool off like everybody said we should let it cool off after the fire. It set a day or two and he said well I guess it's time to open it up and we opened it up and as soon as we opened, everything it had just disintegrated. Uh... all his records and everything at that time. I don't know he...it takes...I can go back, tell you stories you know way back when we lived in down here where the high school is. Uh...he was...they had accused him two or three times of being a member of Klu-Klux-Klan and all that stuff. I don't know but I don't really see anything to it.

B: Yeah. You don't...you don't know it he was?

BS: I don't know whether he was or he wasn't. I really don't.

B: Do you know anything about the uh...the Klan here? I've heard that there was some Klan activity but it was not as organizated a...a racist...organization as it was...in other places?

BS: No there...I've heard stories like that, that there was some around in the '30 and '40 but I...it uh...I don't...never heard about anybody talk about burning a cross or. The racial issue in this area has never really been has never really ever been anything of significance. Uh...for years and years the operated Liberty High School in Williamson which was an all Negro school. And then when the integration uh...came a long they very smoothly did away with Liberty High School and uh...the Negroes just sort of you know, scattered into the various schools. Uh...we've never had any racial problems here with...in the Matewan area that I know of. And we used to have up at Red Jacket we used to have a whole fan... a whole uh...village up there I guess you'd call it, called Little Italy. Which was all...was really where the Negro people lived uh...for Red Jacket Coal Corporation. And they weren't told to live there they just sort of they just sort of migrated in there themselves. They used to fight among themselves up there all the time. But I don't remember of ever having any skirmishes. Oh we've had some minor ones at the school in recent years. But uh...

B: How about the other ethnic minorities were there any Italians?

BS: We had a lot of Italians around here at one time. We had a lot of Italians here in town. But most of them are...are gone have left here. We had some good brick masons uh...stone masons here at one time.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: Uh...the stone house that's down in Hatfield Bottom was built by one of them. We had a Galardio family here at one time. Uh... they were...they were stone masons. Uh...that's like, a lot of the stone over there in the Methodist church it came from up in Warm Hollow. It was cut...cut out of the hollow. There's a stone quarry up there. Uh...well we had Italians and the Negroes and I don't know much else as far as any other groups. See the Italians were brought in here during the Massacre. Previous to the Massacre that's how they got into this country. Uh...because they couldn't get anybody to work and that was part of the strikebreaking thing. But uh...

B: Now I've heard some people say that the...the Italians were uh...grouped in with the blacks but they...but the ethnic minorities that came in with the coal fields were grouped in with the blacks and were not really considered white. Was that the...the case around here?

BS: Well the ones that worked for my dad were never considered to anything other than...everybody was sort of the same thing. I mean there was no uh...we...I know of the men that used to cut coal for Daddy and they were Negro men. But and they lived down here, see we had a camp down here was the...the uh...company store was down next to the crossing and then we had that bottom was full of houses. And they lived in there right among the white ones there was no uh...and we had an Italian or two I guess, that worked for him. And then the rest of them I don't know what nationality they were but they all lived in there together and they worked together and uh...I don't know of every having any problems or anything like that. Now at Red Jacket they did sort of segregate themselves. Uh...Mitchell Branch Hollow used to be full of Italians. Uh...back in the forties and fifties uh...and I mentioned Little Italy it seems strange Little Italy camp was really the negro part of it. That's seems strange and I don't know why that is you might want to dig into that. I don't really have the reason why. Because most of your Italians that worked for them did live up Mitchell Branch.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. Did you come back to the Matewan area uh...after you had served your time in...in France during the...Korean War.

BS: I came back out of the service and taught school for lets see from nineteen and fifty-three through 1959 I guess it was. I taught school at Red Jacket Jr. High School and then they talked me into going to Phelps, and teaching in the high school up there at that time. At that time there was a big demand for math and science teachers. They used...I don't know whether you remember or heard about the uh...that the government put a big push on for scientists. And they literally flooded the school with all kinds of equipment and material and everything. Uh...I didn't have a degree but I started up here at the Jr. High School at Red Jacket teaching math. And they found out that I had, had a lot of Chemistry and Physics and so forth. They begged and pleaded and said we don't have anybody to teach it can you come up here. If you do we'll get all this equipment for you. So I went to Phelps and taught about three or four years up there. And taught all the High Math and all the Physics and Chemistry and all that. And put...in fact I put the laboratory in the school. And uh...but the pay was nothing then.

B: Uh...do you remember roughly how...how much you were paid?

BS: I made thirty-eight hundred dollars a year at Phelps as a teacher.

B: And this was in the late fifties?

BS: That was in the late fifties. That's big money isn't it?

B: At the time how did it seem? I mean did it seem low...

BS: Well I got...we married...got married in 1957, my wife was working at the bank then as she is today. And the two of us we survived very nicely at that time. Uh...we had everything I guess we wanted. Uh...didn't think there was...as long as we both working.

B: Right.

BS: Uh...we got dealt the very serious blow in 1957. We got married in January, and in February we lost everything we had.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: The '57 flood took everything we had. I lived...we lived in the upper end of town, been married three weeks. That was hard to take cause everything we had was brand new. But we...we overcome that. But uh...yes we didn't very well on that kind of money.

B: I was wondering uh...wasn't there a depression in...in the mid to late fifties in...in the coal field...

BS: Well I wouldn't call it a depression. What is the other term that we used?

B: Recession?

BS: Recession.

B: Ok.

BS: That was a small recession. Things did go sort of...sort of slow. The coal business went down. But I think that's one reason I didn't try to...get associated with the coal mining business. My dad wasn't in it anymore and after he sold his business out...he went into some...I guess you would say semi-retirement he bought a building in Williamson and he just looked after that building. And...and uh...out of the proceeds of the sale he bought that and he put money away and so forth and he really didn't have to work. And he sort of went into a semi-retirement. And he did that until he died. So he had nothing for me to do and I...the coal business was sort a down and they were after me to teach. There was a real shortage of teachers at that time. Especially in the math and science field. So I said what the heck I'll give it a shot. I'd never taught anything in my life. But evidently I must have done rather well the first two or three years cause they...they picked up here at Phelps that I could teach these things. That summer before I started up there they'd bugged me to death all summer wanting me to come up there. I said well that's a twelve mile drive you know and all. But uh...uh...going back to the original question. We did very well at that time alright. We really didn't need anything we didn't have any children at that time. And we weren't raising a family and uh...and then in 1960...all during that time I was teaching school I served the Scout Master over here for the local troop. Sponsored by the Rotary Club which still sponsors them. And operated a Boy Scout troop for three or four years over there. There was fifty or sixty boys in it believe it or not. We had that many boys here at one time. And I got interested in other...what that was all about and a man over at Logan who was the Scout executive he got talking to me about doing it for a living. And in 1960 I joined the boy scouts of American. As a professional Scouter. And we left here.

B: What does it mean to be a professional Boy Scout uh...leader?

BS: Well it mean no association with the boys at all. See that's sort of a misnomer you are associated with the adults and you have the responsibility to organize new scouting units. You have responsibility for programming, training, finance, public relations, and the list just goes on and on and on. That's uh...the man is the jack of all trades. They give you a geographical area that you're responsible for, called a district. And I went to work in, outside of Charleston, in the upper end of the Kanawha Valley and they didn't give me one district they gave me two. I had everything from the south end of Charleston going up the Kanawha River to Gauley Bridge and all of Fayette County. Oh I'm not through yet I'll tell you one better than that.I spent four years with them including, three years running summer camp on top of everything else I had. In those days that was big summer camp. That's three, four hundred boys a week. And the they decided that it was time for me to move on somewhere else. So I got off the job and I moved to a city in North Carolina. And we went down there and did the same thing for seven years. I had seven counties that I supervised, for seven years including the Outer Banks. All the way to Hatteras. And Hatteras was a hundred and ten miles from home. And I didn't ...I spent...me and my family we spent seven years there. And somewhere along the line the last of sixth year the man in Norfolk got the bright idea that I needed a change. So he moved me to Virginia Beach. Complete total switch around. Now we are not working with rural people anymore. We are now working with the military. And that is an experience in itself to work with the military. So two and a half years I worked in Virginia Beach with the military people doing the same...same type programming and so forth. And then I...I said well I'm not really in love with this...the job here I like the area but I don't like the job too well so I found me a way to get to Lynchburg. So I...we moved to Lynchburg, Virginia and I became, I got a promotion out of it and so forth and all I had then was the city of Lynchburg. I didn't have anything else. Which tickled me to death. In other words I had a city experience. And uh...that went up 'til about 1975, and the Boy Scouts of American took a sudden change at that time. And they went...I don't know you've probably never heard of the Boy Power Program but we had a new Chief Scout Executive and he came up with the big idea that we needed a change in the program. That we needed to start doing things differently. And he started putting objectives that you couldn't believe. And so the old timers one by one started dropping out and I fell on the lee side too and about the same time mom and dad both got sick. So we decided well we'd give it up and come back home. So in fifteen years I made a circuit.

B: Now being, a woman I never could have been a Boy Scout, explain to me when you say organizing your troops, what...how did you explain to a community why they would need a Boy Scout troop? Is it a patriotic organization uh...?

BS: Well it's a character building organization. Sure it's...it's got patriotism in it but it's basically a character building program for uh...for young boys. Well it's not necessarily young boys today. It has the young boys, which is the Cub Scouts. And then you have the Boy Scouts and then you have the Boy scouts and now uh...before I left we put in the Explorer program which is the high school age vocational type program. And the way we organized, we go into the community and talk to sponsors, talk to churches, talk to PTA's, talk to uh...businesses, and...try to find people interested in organizing that particular kind of a pro-gram. And the next step after that was we'd go to the schools take surveys get people...people would be inter...the kids that would be interested in it. And have an organization meeting. Bring the potential sponsor in and explain how you organize, it and everything and then just turn around say "Now what do you think. "Would you be interested in having this kind of a program? If so we will offer you the x number of things if you will do x number of things. And uh... most of them got off the ground that way. You have to have a little spark of interest that way. Once in a while your fortunate and somebody will call you and say hey I want to organize one. Tickle you do death. And see uh...as a professional scouter your rated just like a business. You have goals that you must achieve every year. You must have so many new units every year and so many boys every year and...and just like uh...it's operated just like a business. It's a far cry from out here building a fire with flint and stone...It's uh...more work with the adults than anything else. You have the district organization you have to supervise. Uh...in some areas you have to raise money depending on united funds and so forth. Which I've done all that. I've raised money you wouldn't believe. Either in...and then you have capitol campaigns and all that sort...it's an experience. Plus a lot of public relations to work. The only good...one of the things I ever found out about the Boy Scouts of America I could take my calling card and I can goin' anywhere. Places that you would never get through by the secretary. I could go in and present that card and say I'd like to see the president and walk right straight in the door.

B: Because of the Boy Scout...

BS: Because of the Boy Scout image. And I sell insurance now and I know that I can't do it that way. It's just...the Boy Scout image would get you anywhere. When I worked for the military in Virginia Beach you never fooled with the peons, hey it was right straight to the base commander. And you go in the gate and say hey I'm here to see commander so and so or captain so and so...yes sir we'll call and tell and tell them your on your way. And you just walked right on in it's uh...it had that kind of prestige to it. Uh...but it was a very lonely job. It's a seven day a week day job; and a very lonely job. You could talk to the biggest people in the country today during the day time but now you didn't go play golf with them this evening. You didn't socialize with them. It was strictly uh...a business arrangement. So it was a very unusual job. A very lonely type job, you don't have anybody to talk to. And uh...then you also see...you find like we were...you find yourself very much removed from where you belong like we went all the way to the coast that's five hundred miles from here. We moved into that North Carolina situation had never been there in my life. And uh..with first meeting and then very well I got in front and said well I'm certainly glad you know me and my family we...we're certainly glad to be in the state of North ("Kerline") (Carolina). And the man in the back room said, "just a minute." I said "oh man I've done it." Now what did I do. He said "now I want to inform you if your gonna stay here he said you start pronouncing the state's name right." I said well I said North Kerlina. He said no sir it is North Carolina and said don't you forget it. So I mean that was my introduction in the North Carolina. But uh...it was very unusual experiences.

B: So did you come home when your...when your parents got sick and...

BS: Yeah they...they were getting older and my dad he...he was a diabetic and uh...he started developing all kinds of problems and so we decided we'd come back home and her...uh...my wife's father he was sort of ill too and so we thought, well we'd make a move. So uh...I came back to run the insurance agency that Robert McCoy now has. And I ran it for three or four years and then I switched and went with Metropolitan and since that time it's just been... it's been insurance.

B: So you hadn't been back long when the '77 flood hit...

BS: No I'd been here two years.

B: How did...

BS: I got here just in time to get in all the mess.

B: When you say all the mess uh...what happened? I mean with the uh...were you busy or were you overrun?

BS: Well it wiped out the insurance agency.

B: The building itself and all...

BS: See we had it out here on the parking lot. See we had a uh...when I came back and took over the agency the sum total of the...the Matewan Insurance Agency was setting over here in the Board room of the bank on a table like this. That was the sum total of the insurance agency. Everybody uh...in the bank had worked with it one time or another and it was just one total mess. And my job was to straighten it all out, get it in shape so it would be a business that'd run on its own. And secondly then get it out of the bank. So we finally got it straighten out. I hired a girl we uh...it took us months to straighten it all out. Policies were laying everywhere and you know. So we finally decided the board finally decided to put a mobile home office where the fire station is down here. So we put one in there, very nice one...business was really set up like it was supposed to be and then here comes the '77 flood. Well they moved the mobile home from where it is there, over in this parking lot over next to the bank. Which soaked everything we had. Well the first thing we were looking for after the flood is to see whether we could get our insurance. I didn't have anything to work with, no forms, no policies no nothing. And nowhere to work. So uh...Dan Moore said I'll tell you what, we've got a little guard building down here at Superior Electric said so we'll put you in there until we can work something out. So my days there for about two weeks consisted of standing outside that building and the girl sitting in the building and us trying to handle all these claims. At which I had over three hundred outstanding claims at one time. And they were about to drive me nuts. We couldn't get things in here fast enough. It was homes, mobile homes, automobiles, mobile homes everything. It was just a mess. That's why I refer to as a mess cause it was. So I...I fooled around there for a while and then the man from Metropolitan told me one day wanted to know if I wanted to go to work for them. And that sounded better than what I was doing. So I went to work for Metropolitan.

B: Before had it been an independent insurance agency? I mean did you contract out to different insurance?

BS: This agency over here? Yeah it was...it was an independent insurance agency that bought insurance or secured insurance from umpteen companies at that time, many several companies. Which a lot of them are not here any more.

B: Well uh...I've been to curious to find out...was there any warning that the flood was going to...to reach....the proportion that it did?

BS: Not...not to the uh...size that it was. We really didn't have any warning system here. The only really warning system that we had was uh...during the floods was, call Welch and see what it was doing in Welch. And then you could figure an hour or two later we would have the proportionally that much and maybe more as it collected coming down the river. But nobody ever envisioned the uh...the size of the '77 flood. Cause I went through...the first one that I had any real experience was '57 and I had experience with uh...there was one in the '60's and of course we left here. But uh...nothing the size of the '77. If you weren't here you just cannot conceive the size of the seventy-seven flood. And the mess that we had.

B: After being gone uh...for about fifteen years how had Matewan changed?

BS: Well it hadn't changed much except a lot of the businesses had folded up and quit. Uh...most of, the businesses...well...uh...yeah I'd say when we came back in '75, most of the businesses were still here and some of the houses were gone due to the flooding. Most...most everything on Main Street looked as it was. Uh...there was a few gone a few changes and so forth uh...the upper end of town was not quite like it was but uh...uh...I couldn't tell. There's not a great deal of change. It's a big switch though. I mean from to come out of a big city like Lynchburg to come back to somewhere like this.

B: How did it feel? I mean since you'd grown up here and then to have gone away and got used to another way of life and then come back?

BS: Well it didn't bother...it didn't bother me too much. And I really don't think...it bothered...bothered my children more than anything else. They...they were more accustomed to going to the bigger schools. Uh...the Virginia Beach system for example is a tremendous school system. They went down there and uh...one of my sons graduated from Brookville High School in...in Lynchburg which was a tremendous school. And to come back here uh...there's a difference in the education system. And uh...I don't know uh...I wasn't here very long and I was back doing the same thing I was doing when I left here in '60. I was in the middle of everything. Uh...was...I hadn't been her two days and someone stopped me and said are you coming back to the church choir. I said well I don't know I hadn't thought anything about it. And a few days later we were looking for a Scout master. I said now you forget that I had my scouting I'm not gonna do that any more. Uh...and I was...you know you...you...and a few months went by and we were sort of right back in the step with everything cause I...the only thing I noticed was some of the people I didn't know who they were. And I had a little difficulty picking up on the people again. But uh...other than the fact that we don't have things in this area that we had where we came from. I miss Virginia Beach because of Norfolk. I miss...I miss not being to go to Scope and see basketball games or to Hampton Roads to the Coliseum you know....

BS: Well I mean for a little town like this. See population of this town has never been much more that uh...it got close to a thousand at one time I think or eight or nine hundred like that but it's never been a big size.

B: Uh-huh. So when you say there were a gang of stores I guess it's stretched the town probably...the town probably stretched beyond what is the downtown area now?

BS: Oh yes we had several businesses in the upper end of town. What I...see we refer to the upper end of town...the Corps refers to it as the Mate Creek Project. And every time they say that I want...where are you talking about this is the upper end of town. It is always been that. Like Hatfield Bottom is Hatfield Bottom but it's really the Williamson Addition. I mean uh...it's just whoever is talking about it. And this was...from the post office down is the lower end of town. And uh...because see I can remember Hatfield Bottom when there was only two houses in Hatfield Bottom.

B: About how many are there now?

BS: Oh I don't know there's uh...uh...lets see the survey we took down there there's something like a hundred and nine or a hundred and ten uh...no...no...no...no...two hundred and nine or two hundred and ten households. When we did the block grant survey down there including the tower. There's something like...I think it's two hundred and nine or two hundred and ten households. In Hatfield Bottom. Now I can recall in the '40's when there was only two houses. I will tell you an interesting one on that my dad was offered all of Hatfield Bottom at one time for ten thousand dollars. The whole thing. And he turned it down.

B: Why was that?

BS: Just wasn't interested. He just didn't want it. See the only two houses was...down there...one of them is gone now. Uh...was the old Greenway Hatfield house. Which is...sits opposite the uh... Chambers Funeral home. There was that one and back up this way there was a stone house. You know where the Smith's live? The big...the nice house next to the tower? Back behind them there was a stone house which was part of the old Alley farm. Uh...there's a solid stone. They's...not too long ago they tore the thing down. But that was the only two houses that was in Hatfield Bottom. The road used to run up around the hill. I guess you've seen that?

B: Uh-huh.

BS: And there was one entrance about half way down there was only one entrance into Hatfield Bottom and that's all there was. And uh...he was offered all that whole bottom down there for ten thousand dollars and turned it down. But at that time ten thousand dollars was a lot of money and he probably thought well I'm just not interested you know...He just didn't want it. But of the town we moved here in 1940 uh...I could....I have to take the time to count it but. We had at that time on Main Street we had two...two...two supermarkets on Main Street. We had the old Matewan Supermarket that's over there where Little Venice is. You've probably already picked all this up. And I'm telling you something you've probably already heard.

B: No I...I haven't gotten this.

BS: Where City...where City uh...parts is down there was a supermarket. I don't remember the name of that one but anyway there was supermarket in there. Well let me come up one side and down the other that might be better. Let's go down to the big supermarket on the very end. As you came on up the street you had Leckie's drug store. And then you had uh...the Silver Dollar was in there next I believe. Of course the ABC Store has been there forever. And then the next two big sections there one of them is vacant there. In fact I think they're both vacant now. One where the uh...where the uh...video store was. Both of those were one business. That was Hope's Department Store. The one that's empty and there's one beside it which the video was Hope's Department Store. So there was one department store. The next one coming up the street was Kirk's Department Store. Those people are not here any more. He's dead I believe or she's dead now I don't...one or the other is dead. They live in North Carolina. Then you'd come next and you had the uh...the old Matewan Cafe. Which is now the Silver Dollar I think. But the Silver Dollar in these days was not a club. It was just a tavern. Uh...then next you had uh...the Theater, the Matewan Theater which Frank Allara owned. And after the Matewan Theater you had Abdess Department Store. Those people live in Huntington now I think. That's spelled A.B.D.E.S.S.

B: Ok.

BS: Next to the Abbess Department store you had uh...uh...had the Smokehouse.

B: Ok.

BS: See we had our share of everything. And then you're up to the little office there which is the off there where the barber shop, that was a barbershop...that was a barber shop. Now if you come up the other side Robert...where Robert McCoy is, the building didn't exist. But there was an ice house in there. Have you heard about the ice house? The flat topped ice house that was in there at that time? See that occupied where the tavern is and Robert's building. There was...the only thing that was...was between Robert's uh...where I mean the ice house and Nenni's over there was uh...a walkway that you could walk up between it and go up to the railroad.

B: Right.

BS: Now in that ice...which was originally the ice house uh...there was a shoe shop in there at that time and uh...some people lived in it. The Morrells, of the Morrells used to live...some of the Morrells family used to live at the bottom of that. Of course Robert's building did not exist at all. It was built later than that. Now Nenni's, was Nenni's in the...in the uh...no I take it back. We had the Rainbow Grill in there don't forget the Rainbow Grill occupied what is part of Nenni's now. The first part...as you come up the street the first part of it was the Rainbow Grill. And then you got into Nenni's department store which was not as big as it is now, by now means. Nenni's department store used to be Shaffer Brothers.

B: Ok.

BS: Have you ever heard of that name before.

B: Yes.

BS: That was Shaffer Brothers. Now I mentioned Kirk's Department store there a while ago. L. A. Kirk owned Kirk's Department store but he got his start with Shaffer Brothers. That's where he...when he...when he popped up in this area I don't know where he came from. Uh...he went....he started with Shaffer Brothers. And I don't know where the Abbess's came from I've have never heard them discussed. As you come on up the street place where uh...Paul's business is over there now, or where you all are was the Knotty Pine. Which was a restaurant. And after that where Lisa is now was a Dry cleaners. Uh...in the '40's and '50's I think it was Stuart's Dry Cleaners not spelled like my name, spelled the other way.

B: Ok.

BS: And then next to where Little Venice is now was the Matewan Super...uh...was the Matewan uh...I think...I guess it was Matewan Supermarket I guess is what it was called. Horace Burmaster and ...and uh...oh Deskins I can't think of his first name. They owned it. Then you come on up where uh...where the game room is that was Craftsman Printing. The one that's across the river now. That was Craftsman Printing at that time. And the Chatterbox was the Chatterbox believe it or not. Now those next two down through there uh...no the one where uh...Doris Hatfield put the furniture store in was uh...no that's a little later. I can't...can't think who was in there at that time. I know they had a jewelry store in there at one time and I can't uh...I'm not sure...quite sure but anyway go on up where the bank took over the uh...two sections of the bank took. That was Matewan Hardware. No I'll take it back it was Chambers Hardware lets get it right. It was Chambers Hardware.

B: Ok.

BS: And then you're up to the post office. The corner building was the post office.

B: Okay.

BS: Now, where the post office is today was uh...uh...was the old Chambers' home. There was a big home sit there previous to the '77 flood.

B: Uh-huh. Was that the Chambers home place?

BS: Yeah. It's. That's about all the businesses...well no I take that back. No we had some right out here I forgot. Uh...the Baptist church was not there at that time.

B: Ok.

BS: We had uh...there was a row of businesses that came down this street and run out to the river bank here. There was Keyto's Flower Shop...

B: Ok.

BS: And then there was a house in between that. Then there was out here a little closer to the river we had Reams Wholesale. Which sold everything in the wholesale you can imagine. Including the candy and the feed and the hay and the whole works. And then we had a house of ill repute. (laughing)

B: Ok.

BS: We had Carrie's out here.

B: How do you spell that?

BS: I...I'd say it's spelled like...probably C.A.R.E.Y. she was a negro lady. And she was out in this general area. Of course she at that time see the river was way back here. It's only been in recent years see the river has fallen back that way. At one time the river would...would have practically been right up against this building. Then see where the parking lot is out here we had the uh...sewer plant...For the town that's all that we had at that time. And then right out this side we had the water plant. And the fire department was downstairs.

B: What do you know about Aunt Carey?

BS: I don't know much about her. She...she did a little bootleggin' and oh you name it. Uh...she is a figure that you need to find somebody who can talk to talk you about. I don't know much about her. I just know as they say in '40's and '50's I...I wasn't very old I just know that she had...she had uh..."a house."

B: Uh-huh.

BS: You know and uh...there was a lot of bootleggin' went on at that time. Uh...

B: Now in the house of ill repute part uh...did she have white and black customers that came...

BS: I don't know.

B: You don't know.

BS: I don't know. I wouldn't want to answer that.

B: Okay. Well that's a lead to follow.

BS: You need to...you need to talk to somebody that knows a little more about Aunt Carey.

B: Okay.

BS: Some of the people a little older could probably tell you a little more about her.

B: You wouldn't have known her last name?

BS: No I...I...she was always referred to as Aunt Carey.

B: Okay. How about some of the...the things that people would buy downtown in the department stores did...were there name brand clothes...

BS: Well you take Abbess's and Kirk's, and I'd say yes and probably Nenni's and I'm not this familiar with Shaffer Brothers it was a little bit before my time but I know the...that Nenni's took over Shaffer Brothers building. Yes if you want...and Abbess's especially they had their own special brands that they sold but you go in to Abbess's and yes you could buy Catalina and you could buy Jantzen. And you could buy the name brand women's clothes I don't know the womens names that well. Kirk's yes you could buy good clothes. These were...hey these were nice superduper stores. There wasn't anything cheap about them. Uh...and they had...they had the name merchandise. Uh...if you wanted a good suit they'd sell you a good suit and they stocked the suits if it was sports coats or sports wear. Uh...Kirks I think was probably a little more of a mans...a mans store than Abbess's was. Although he had...he had ladies clothes. Of course Nenni's has always had it all. Including shoe repair and everything. 'Cause I worked one Christmas for Kirk's. We sold everything...I think they had everything that you could imagine in there. So you see we had a lot of department stores.

B: How was the competition? I mean it seems like they would have probably had the same products in the store, how did they compete?

BS: There was...I don't think they really what you can say competition, they all worked together they was uh...this was just a friendly town. I mean there wasn't no backbittin' and stabbin' or nothing like that. They all just worked it uh...I'd say some of them probably had the same brands I don't remember but I'd say probably that's possible. The Abbess department store was run by a little younger man. And of course that's the reason his trend was a little more to the high school age, college age, and uh...Kirk was a little older man. He carried probably a little better line shoes. He used to carry Bostonian and you know the more popular shoes where Abbess's did not lean too much in the shoes. And I say when you get to Nenni's they was essentially all of it. Cause they had a bigger store and uh...they essen-tially sold it all. Uh...down in the lower end down here there were...I don't recall any businesses except we did have service station down there at one time. Uh...which gradually the floods did away with that...I think is the about the only business that was ever in the lower end of town. Except uh...down next to the bridge there was a house and they had a beauty shop in it. I think that's about the sum total of this end. You go to this end up here now uh...we had uh...one lets see...we had one grocery store Benny Accica's grocery store and we had uh...Robert McCoy's mother and dad had one up there. Which...well now they didn't own it first...no I was wrong there. It was John Anderson's store before it became Robert's mother and dad's store. Which was a big grocery store.

B: Now what part of town is this in so that there will be a reference on the tape...

BS: I refer to it as the upper end of town.

B: Ok.

BS: Uh...

B: Heading towards Williamson?

BS: No headed toward Red Jacket.

B: Headed toward Red Jacket, okay.

BS: I know that's confusing because really this is up when you go this way.

B: Ok.

BS: But we had the two big grocery stores uh...on the corner where the tire store is now we had great big uh...uh...service station in there and I mean they did...did repairs and everything...called City Motor. Was started by the name of Dennis Queen and oh...the other mans name is Lane and I can't...Denver Lane. They were the owners of uh...you go up here about where Collins is where the first W & E Chevrolet was. That building is not there anymore. The original W & E Chevrolet was...was not W & E it was uh...Milt WIlliams's Chevrolet. He was sole owner. And then uh...Pearlie Epling went into business with him and that's where you get the W & E from.

B: Ok.

BS: Then they migrated up the road up there where the big building is now.

B: I heard a story the other night about uh...Pearlie Epling winning bank night that he hadn't had much luck in...in business or anything like and he won bank night one time in the forties at the theater. Did you ever hear anything about that story?

BS: He probably did. I...

B: Ok.

BS: Bank night at the theater was a big thing in those days. Uh... but in those days if you won five dollars you know hey...Eddie Nenni was telling me a story over there this morning on the street he said uh...about the man the woman that won five dollars at the theater one night came over the next day to his Dad's uh...bought two pair of shoes, and they went down to the restaurant and had a big meal and all that on five dollars. You know that was...that was the value of the dollar at that time. It wasn't much. Uh... uh...but there's the...the old Milt Williamson Chevrolet up there uh...we had another business up there one time in the fifties called the Hucklebuck.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: And I don't think you...you probably remember...do you remember the song "Do The Hucklebuck"?

B: No I've never heard of that..

BS: Well it was...it was a teen center type thing, man put in there. We had that up there at one time. Way up next to the under...uh...the railroad crossing we had a drive in there at one time. Uh...over here where the gas tanks are...I'm rambling now cause I can't remember...I just remember as I think of where the gas tanks are uh...you start right in there uh...we had uh...uh...a seed store...in there I'm trying to think of the man that owned it. There was a seed store in there. and right next to that was Matewan Lumber. Big...big outfit. And it run all the way from the tanks all the way to where you see...see the cement wall that's on the side you know that's sort of raised up. It...great big gigantic lumber company at that time. Owned by the Varney family at that time. T. I. Varney and Russell Varney and Tom Varney and their dad they all owned the business. That was a big lumber company. To fill that whole area and all that vacant space you see up there was all filled in. I forgot a business down here at the end. The one at the very...where the Buskirk building is, B. & C. Oil Company they had a filling station then. I forgot about that it was in that little triangle.

B: What do you know about some of the...the political goings on...

BS: In town?

B: Uh-huh.

BS: Only thing I can say political aspect of the town is this town is always some what operated on its own. It has never had any real influence from the county. It's sort of...it's not been anti-county but it has never been controlled by the county. So to speak back through the years. Uh...it's sort of...at least in the recent years it sort of stood on its own. And has not ask for you know anything from the county so to speak. Now we've had some real political figures in this town. You take there was probably no bigger political figure in this country than Dan Chambers.

B: Ok.

BS: Uh...who was Sheriff of Mingo County at one time. Also president of the Matewan National Bank at the same time. And he literally as the story of...as the story goes literally run the county right out of his office over here at the bank.

B: When was he sheriff?

BS: Uh...I don't know. That's been back...seemed to me like it was back in the '30's or '40's or somewhere. It's been back...you'd have to find somebody that knows more about that than I do.

B: And you say he...he...he ran things was that uh...

BS: Well the people all come in the bank to see him and you know and instead of him going to Williamson you know. He was literally of...just

B: Ok.

BS: But he was a big...he was a big political figure.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: And uh...not just in town but as far as the county is concerned. I don't believe he ever did anything at the state board or not I doubt it. Although we did have a state senator at one time.

B: Uh-huh. Who was that?

BS: That's Glenn Taylor. Who was a state senator for several years.

B: Uh-huh. How about the uh...was...so Matewan was probably not that big a part of say the county political machine?

BS: It never has really been a big part of the county machine. Uh...uh...

B: What did uh...I've been talking to some of the older folks about political affiliation what...what kind of image did say a democrat versus a republican have through the years?

BS: This has always been democrat here.

B: Ok.

BS: The...what few republicans there are is never been any...any number. Uh...that's my estimation of one of our problems in this area. We don't have really the two party system in the Mingo county. And so when your politicians and the state look down on us they look down and say well it's all democrats down there and uh...if your a republican we can't compete with 'em so if we get elected governor we don't owe them anything. If the democrats get elected governor and we don't them anything anyway because they're gonna do what we want 'em to do anyway. So you see...you see the problem we got. And I think that's been one reason this area has sort of been forgotten because we don't have enough of the two parties. Uh...you can look at your registration...well you can go out here today and look at the registration books for the elections today and look at the political affiliation and I'd say ninety-five percent are democrats. Now why my dad was, my grandfather was, so thus...when it come time for you to register to vote you put down as a democrat. It's just...it's just one of these things that happen. It's getting better because the younger people coming on I think a little more free thinking. And uh...the old system of you know voting straight tickets and things like that is becoming a thing of the past. People begin to think a little more and why vote a straight ticket...I don't like that man there lets vote for this man over here. I think your having a little more than that. But we don't have many republicans.

B: When you say people would say well my father and my grandfather were democrats how...how far back do you see...how far back do you think the image was set of what...

BS: Oh I'd say it probably goes way back. I...I'd say this was filtered down through...maybe 'til the time when they first started the democrats I don't know. Why, I don't know. But I just...I have this feeling that this is why it is progressed this way. It's just progressed from one to another. And uh...comes a time for Johnny to register to vote who takes him down? His dad takes him down uh...to the courthouse or where ever it is. Comes time to say what party you belong to. Uh...you know the dad's suggesting well I'm one you ought to be one or he's saying well dad's one I ought to be one. You know. And it just doesn't change. And uh...we just have never had many republicans in this area. And we don't have many today. It's strange but that's the way it is.

B: Are the uh...are the local republicans are they...so were they a vocal minority? I mean do they talk...

BS: They don't say much no. Once in a while we've had in the county...though we've had an election or two where a republican you know really tried to step forward but it's just not enough of them. For what they had to count on...as they have to count on swaying a certain percentage of democrats to swing over and vote for them and you know that's...that's difficult. Uh...maybe some did in those particular elections who were friends who got out and uh...one man was an educator and of course he...he swung a lot of the educators that were democrats to vote for him because of what he did. But uh...there weren't very much...I won't say though we don't vote for them. Minority, they're just a minority. But they have made a couple...a couple of times they've tried. They'd sort of strike out and say well what the heck.

B: Okay. I was just wondering if they...if I told you somebody like Dewey Hatfield had been a republican all of his life. What...what image comes to your mind? Why would say someone...

BS: I don't know Dewey may have been republican.

B: He was.

BS: I expect he probably was. I don't know as far as politics is concerned. I say Dewey probably never got much interested in politics. Uh...knowing Dewey and I knew Dewey uh...he was very vocal person but uh...I'd say he probably never expressed much in politics. I never...never remember him ever saying anything like that. But uh...but uh...we had several around at one time and then some of these that are republicans will fool you. Uh...you know the old saying goes a republican's got all the money so... I you know.

B: Okay. Lets see. Is there anything else that you'd...you'd like to talk about today because I can tell that your a man that I'm gonna come back and talk to some more so...

BS: Well I can't...I can't think of anything. I just...I just answer questions you know what ever you think you want to know I'm trying to help you with.

B: Ok.

BS: But uh...off the top of my head I can't...

B: Ok.

BS: just...

B: Well would you mind if I came back...

BS: No...no...not at all.

B: And talk to you some more?

BS: I've been around...see I've been around Matewan since 1940 except the few years I was gone.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: And I've seem a lot of people come and go.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: And uh...I can't speak much previous to that time cause we were in the area uh...well since 1932 I've been around here. But uh...I've seen a lot of things come and go here I've seen a lot of elections I've seen a lot of mayors a lot of all these things. Uh...maybe you can think of something you want to ask I'll try to answer it for you.

B: Okay. Well the...the one last question I'd...I'd perhaps like to ask is uh...since you have seen change over the years and you've seen people come and go who do you think has stayed in Matewan? Do you think it's been the people whose ancestors were from this area or do you think it was people, have stayed for other reasons?

BS: Uh...that's a tough one. I don't know. I...I would say probably most of the people who have stayed here are natives of the area or have come up through the families and so forth. I was trying to think when you ask the question if there is anybody that moved in here for example that's still here. Uh...not many. I can't...I couldn't think of very many, who have come in here for particular reasons...see back in the...like back in the uh...the '50's we had a lot of strip mining around here. Auburn Mining on top of these mountains we had a lot of outside people who came and stayed you know for a year, two years, three years. Uh...some of them married some of the people here. Uh...but none of those stayed. I...I can't think of any of them that's still here. Uh... no I don't believe there's any of them here. Uh...most of the people you got here locally uh...was a few exceptions you know you've got your manager at Lowes is not native. Uh...who was brought in with the company for example and uh...was...and you get beyond that I think almost everybody else is...has been associated with the area for years. Back through their families and so forth. Maybe that's why we are all are still here I don't know. Uh...I don't know any place as home other than...other than this area. Although as you've seen I've had been all over the east coast. And uh...but you think about the people on Main Street over here and the people that live here. And there not only in town but up in the surrounding area. And most all of them are native people. There...there might be a few that have drifted in and stayed but not many.

B: Do you think that you would of come back eventually? Say if you hadn't come back when you did?

BS: No...I couldn't...I couldn't tell you...I...we've talked about this would we have done so and so if so and so had you know been different. I really don't know. I like some of the areas I was in. I like the Virginia Beach area.

B: Uh-huh.

BS: Uh...I liked the Elizabeth City, North Carolina area because we were fifty miles south of Norfolk. And straightest road you've ever seen you now to run to Norfolk. Never the Tidewater here. Uh...I didn't like it when we moved down there but after I got so I could get around in it...it's like going up in your country once you find out where you are why everything is fine. But I like being...having choices in things if you're looking for an item. I like being able to say well I can go in this store and I can go in that store and this one over here and they all sell the same thing. Uh...I like the convenience, here, we don't have that. Uh...we don't have any competition here for business. You put your price what ever you want it to be and now buy from you or else you know. You get into the cities you have that competition. You have the sales you have the bargains and uh...it makes a big difference.

B: Uh-huh. Okay. Well one last question now. One last question is I guess uh...since I...I've met you, you're one of the first people that I met here, what would you like to see happen for Matewan? Say before you die. What would you like to see happen? What would you like to see happen to Matewan for the next thirty some years?

BS: Well I'd like to see uh...I'd like to see some of the history rebuilt. Uh...that we've been working on here for some time. I think there's a lot of value to history. But I think there's also we...we need the economics. We need some kind of diversified economics here. We need something other than the coal mining industry. Maybe the flood project will be the salvation of this town, I don't know. We have set and waited and...so long waiting to see what's going to happen. And it all looks good on a piece of paper. And some of us here in town have worked many...many hours trying to make, you know, trying to make this thing happen. When the...when we get the...you know this built up here in the back you know and get uh...businesses in it I don't know whether that's the answer or not. I like...I'd just like to see the town come back to life like it was in the '40's and '50's. Uh... people like you from the outside came in vision of what this town was at that time when you come down the street on Saturday night and you cannot get down the sidewalk uh...people are lined up from the theater all the down around where Coal City is now waiting to get into the theater. Uh...the school...the high school was in town and not removed from the town. I think that probably hurt this town more than anything I can think of. It took the flow of all those people out of town. Uh...I know it can't be like that again. It could never be like that but I think we uh...the...the two things I'd like to see is get the town back together where we do have adequate businesses for people to look at and shop in and so forth. And some where not in town...there's no place in town to do it but some where on either on Pigeon Creek or up the creek, or across the river or somewhere we get some small plants going and use the wood products we got here or uh...put sewing machines in for the women or something where people can make a living. Because the mining industry...the way I look at the mining industry at the rate their removing coal and I know...and they're gonna tell me I'm wrong...but the rate that they're moving coal today out of this area, ten to fifteen years is gonna be a long time. And there's not gonna be any coal. Then where do we go from there? Do we have another Thacker sitting on our hands? Thacker used to be...you know that Thacker up the river here was considered to be Williamson. It was supposed to be the county seat originally. Because it was that size of a community. Or are we gonna have another Red Jacket up here that's dilapidated and run down. Because there's nothing for people...tell me who we're gonna end up with, retired people. Retired people are not income producing people. They buy and so forth but they...they don't uh...they don't make any money, they don't pay any taxes. Uh...is that what we're gonna end up with? And I...I'm very fearful of this myself. If we don't get something else...some kind of industry of some kind. Everybody says the roads are a problem. Uh...I've been in some other states and all they had going...the best one I can think of is the Bush Manufacturing Company down in Tennessee. We go to Gattlinsburg and so forth we sometimes take that...in-stead of the interstate we take one of those back roads to go into...to Pigeon Forge. And the... you know what I'm talking about when I say the Bush Manufacturing that's your canned greens and so forth. And they're on that road and absolutely in the middle of nowhere; it must be fifteen miles either way before you get to anything. And all they've got going through there is a two lane road. And it's crooked. It's...49* don't have a thing on that road. But it's a good surface and everything. But yet here come these big...you meet these big Semis coming out of there, hauling that stuff. And you can't tell me in this area that, that can't happen here. But everybody when you start building something or lets talk to so and so about bringing something...well their not gonna come the roads are too bad they don't want anybody...I...I don't buy that. A four lane high way in this area is completely beyond all uh...possibility. But I think we could have nice two lane roads and you could have these things. 52* that runs down Pigeon Creek is not a bad road at all with some work done on it. And there's some areas over there for a nice small plants. And land is available. You can...you can buy the land. Talk...and I think you can get people in here to put some of these things. I'm talking about these twenty, twenty-five people operations. Like the uh...furniture plant over there. But we need to have...and we need to rebuild this town. So that it becomes something of pride. The flood project hopefully will produce us uh... the uh...the living space that we've lost. And uh...now whether it is gonna happen who knows? I don't know. It's just a dream I guess.

B: Okay. Well thank you for your time today and I've really enjoyed talking to you. And I...I hope you'll let me talk to you again when I have some more questions for you.

BS: (laughing) Okay. Well you dream up your questions and I'll try to answer them for you.

B: Okay. Thank you.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection