Matewan Oral History Project Collection
Sc2003-135

Virginia Grimmett Interview

Becky Bailey: It's, I believe, twelve o'clock in the afternoon, on July the 20th...the 21st. I'm with Mrs. Jennie Grimmett, and my first question, Mrs. Grimmett, is when and where you were born.

Jennie Grimmett: I was borned at Chattaroy, West Virginia. Uh... 19...uh...January the 22nd, 1917.

B: And what were your parents names?

JG: Uh...James A. Maynard, and Finia Anderson Maynard.

B: And you were born at home?

JG: Yes.

B: Who helped your mother deliver you when you were born?

JG: An old lady that was called "Granny" Watson.

B: Did your parents pay her to help you be born?

JG: No. It was her routine to help deliver babies.

B: Okay. How many children did your parents have?

JG: Two.

B: Two.

JG: Two girls.

B: Were you the oldest?

JG: Yes.

B: When was your sister born?

JG: She was borned in April, 1918. Fifteen months and six days (apart).

B: Was there a reason your parents only had two children? Or...do you know..?

JG: No, not that I know anything about. It's just...There just wasn't anymore children.

B: Okay. Did "Granny" Watson deliver your sister?

JG: Yes.

B: What did they call that back then? I've heard some people...

JG: Mid-wife.

B: Okay.

B: Did anybody you know ever use the expression "catchin' the baby?"

JG: Yes.

B: Is that what they called it?

JG: That's what the "Granny" called (it)

B: Okay.

JG: She always said, "I got to go catch a baby."

B: Before we went on tape, you said your father worked for the New Howard Mines?

JG: No, Howard Calley.

B: Okay.

JG: that's Chattaroy.

B: Would you tell me some about what he did when he worked in the mines? Did he ever tell you about how he worked?

JG: He had to dig down coal. He had to furnish his own powder and his own tools, and, uh...they crawled in they didn't have, uh... mantrips like today, you know, things that they do today, he had to, uh...walk what distance, and then crawl the rest. And then he had to dig down his coal, with a pick and shovel, and put in his cars. And they had furnish...they had to dynamite it down sometimes and, uh... shovel it in the cars. Then push it outside.

B: When did, uh...When did the Union try to come in, that you all ended up moving in the tent colonies? Would you tell me some about that?

JG: I...As far a I can remember--the best I can remember--is that, uh...it was in '20, '21, and maybe '22, something like that... somewhere along in there. I know they were out for a long time.

B: Okay. What was it like living in the tents? Can you tell me some of what you remember about that?

JG: Yes. Little on the devastating side, after living in a house and having large rooms, and a yard to play in, and then be confined with two tents; one for your beds, we all had to sleep in the same room, and then one for your kitchen. And the furniture that we had, we couldn't bring it all out of the house, we just brought what we could use in the tents. Beds, and a chest to put our clothes in, and table, stove and a cabinet.

B: What happened to the rest of your furniture?

JG: It was left in the house. The...By the grace of God, they didn't bother it. So, when they did let us go back, it was there.

B: Mrs. Casey told me a story about, uh...you digging a little hole under your mother's cot. Would you tell me that story?

JG: Asides from our beds, we didn't have much to play with, only, uh...no toys or anything, so, we got, uh...I got a hold of, uh... table spoon, and went back under her bed, and dug a hole, and, uh.. ..she didn't know I's under the bed and I was hid. And she kept calling for me to come out. And she says, "I know you're some-where," because I was being real quiet. She says, "I know you are somewhere, and I know you are doing something that you shouldn't be doin'." And I thought, she looked and looked and she began to get a little panicked and she said, "If you don't come out, if you don't come around where I can see you, I'm gonna be real mad at you." And I knew she was gonna be mad at me anyway for diggin' a hole. And, I stuck my head kindly out under the bed, where she could see me. She says, "You've been there all the time," and I said "yes" she said, "What are you doing under that bed?" And I had dug a good size hole. She made me push it all back in, take my hand and pat it down real hard, and then she told me, "Don't you ever hide on me again." And, I don't know, I guess it's just, more or less, wudn't too much for us to do being that confined. But we had to find something to do, so mine was digging the hole.

B: How far away from the houses were you all had lived? How far did you have to go where they made the tent colony?

JG: Oh...See, they put us...uh...we found uh...a level place up on the mountain, like, you know, way up off of the road, away from all the company. And you just had to stick a tent whereever you could, find a level spot and dig it off, and whatever, to put your tent on. And, uh...I'll tell you it's approximately...maybe a mile and a half, two miles. But we couldn't live on the level ground of the coal company. They...We had to go up on the hill, up on the bank-like, you know.

B: Who...Was somebody...Did somebody own that land that ya'll knew? Or just..?

JG: I don't know where the coal company--I'm not positive that the coal company owned it--they just didn't want us in the camp, livin' in the camp houses. But they let us put...Which it may be that the land might have belonged to them, and then it could have belonged --which it seems to me, in my mind, that I can remember--it belong-ed to another...oh, an old man and his wife that owned a lot of property. But, to the best of my knowledge, it was their land that we was on; but they did...some, you know, did get over on the property, and they didn't bother them at that time.

B: About how long did you all live in a tent? Do you..can you remember passage of time? You were such a little girl.

JG: I think's it's about a year and a half, maybe two. I know the miners went back, they didn't get their contract. I mean they didn't get the, uh...They had to go back, the pressure on them was so bad, you know. And, uh...the Union was helpin' 'em as much as they could...and wh...what...what they could was givin' us, you know, was, uh....rice, and beans, and flour...meal and--once in a while--they brought in eggs, and...which we's very happy when we got the eggs. We always got can milk, to make gravy in. We didn't go hungry--we didn't have the best, you know of the foods to eat --but we never went hungry. And, my father was a man that, uh... out-side of the mines--when he could fine someone that needed work, you know, that wasn't connected to the mines or anything--he would work for them and do odd jobs to bring home a little bit to, uh... buy lamp oil with, you know for our lights. We didn't have electric lights, we had to use lamp oil. And, uh...we managed to get wood...pick up what coal would wash down the creek, you know, keep the fire going in the stove.

B: Did you all have a cow in the camp or anything to give fresh milk for the children?

JG: We didn't, no. We didn't know what milk was, other than this, uh...in our gravy. We didn't have milk to drink.

B: How about meat? Did any of the men hunt or anything?

JG: What?

B: Did any of the men hunt? Was there any meat?

JG: Yes...yes...yes. My father caught a rabbit. I can remember that distinctly. We had the best meal that evening, having that rabbit. And, uh...he would go...all the miners at that time... people they survived by, uh...getting things out of the mountains, you know, food. And some of the people that wasn't connected with the mines, was real good...supportive. They let the men work for 'em, you know, they'd give 'em extree (extra) food, or give them extree money to help them survive, but it was rough.

B: Did a doctor ever come visit ya'll at the camp or anything?

JG: Not during the strike. Each company had it's own doctor, and the doctor at Howard Colony was, uh...a Doctor Price. I can't remember what his first name is right now, but it was a Doctor Price. I can remember him very distinctly; very good doctor, but he wasn't allowed to doctor any of us while we were in, uh...tents. But, he was really nice of just coming to...say, for a visit...not a doctor call. If you needed something you got it. He was that kind of a doctor.

B: What would happen if somebody got sick in the tent colony? Did anybody ever get sick and need attention?

JG: You learnt to survive. Back in those days, there was so many things that elderly woman knew what to do to make...roots, herbs. You'd be surprised the things that grows in these mountains and these fields, that you can use for medicine. And these old women knew how to make it and, uh...my mother learned quite a bit from her mother, of making things that you could take. And used like for diarrhea and, uh...just simple things. And it was only by the grace of God, that no one tipped their time, other than if you got sick and died, you know...Maybe it was just we always--back at that time--said, well it was their time, you know, to go. But we learned to survive by using herbs, weeds, whatever people calls today. You'd be surprised that medicine is out there.

B: You were a little girl, but do you ever remember anybody getting sick in your camp and in the tent colony?

JG: There was one lady, uh--at the present I can not think of her name--that became quite ill, and my father's mother, she lived in Paintsville, Kentucky, at the time, and she was pretty well reowned as...uh, well just a doctor, you know; she didn't go to school, just a country lady that learned all the herbs, and how to do and take care of people. And she was visiting us during...that time, and one lady was really bad sick. And what grandma's knowledge she did what she could, but the lady died anyway, without a licensed physician.

B: What was your grandmother's name?

JG: Virginia Maynard. I was named after her.

B: Okay. What did the people do to have church services? Did you all have church services, or anything like that?

JG: We gathered together...anywhere we could find a space big... for us to sit down on the ground on a rock, sang, pray, and there's always someone that could always lead us in...studying the Bible, reading the Bible.

B: Do you remember any of the songs that you all would sing? Or... Any of the songs...Do you remember any?

JG: One particular one is, uh..."Amazing Grace." It's sung every time we come together. (pause) This is another one that kindly sticks in my mind, "Near My God To Thee," those two I can distinctly remember.

B: Did the miners have any songs that they sang? You know some-times you hear, uh...people having songs that they sang about the Union, or trying to get the Union, or anything. Do you remember?

JG: Well, at that time, they had not been a Union, and then men wasn't really that organized, you know, to do any of the things that they...like they do today. They had no one to guide them, at that time and, uh...they just became so dissatisfied. Of course, it had been handed down from, uh--at the time I can't remember who the people was that it was...that was the head of this--that run along with the men to unionize. Just seems to me, like the name won't come to me right now. But, they had...The miners, themselves, were treated like animals, they wasn't treated like humans. And, if you was assigned a certain amount of cars to be loaded that day, you stayed in there 'til those were loaded, if it was all day and all night.

B: So there wasn't a regular shift that they had to work? They were assigned car loads?

JG: My mother used to have to send my father's food by another miner, maybe he'd get through and get out. And, uh...when my father did get through, it'd be so late that he couldn't get back home, get any sleep, and get back to work; 'cause they had to walk. As usual, they was a good distance from the mines. And, he would lay down...what...sleep on the gob. Gob is a part of the...diggings that's not coal, you know--referred to as slate--and some of it, sometimes, would be small pieces, and you could smooth it out and lay down on it. And he'd, "go over in the gob," they called it, and sleep until the next morning. And, uh..somebody... Mom had sent him breakfast, and food. She'd pack every bit she could in her bucket; a big 'luminum (aluminum) bucket. It had two sections, it was about this height and had a bail, and you cold take one section off, and carry this in the bottom full of water; then push this back down and you could just cram it full--whatever you had--with food.

B: Do you know how much money your father got paid for..? Did he get paid by the ton, or did he get paid by the car, or do you..?

JG: By the car.

B: By the car? How much would he get paid?

JG: Darling, that's so...It was just a very few cents, it wasn't like a dollar a car or anything like that, it was just a very few cents. You had to load so many cars of coal, before you could even make, say, a dollar and a half...whatever. A dollar and a half back in those days was like, fifty, or sixty, or a hundred dollars, almost. Because you went to the store--many a time I've went to the store, my mother sent me to the store--and the Carnation cream you have today, Carnation cream; three cents a can.

B: And you were saying before soap cost two cents for a big bar?

JG: And that was a big long bar, about that thick.

B: In the tent colony that you lived in, did they try to have school for the older children? Were there older children in the camp?

JG: Oh, yes.

B: Who taught the school? Do you remember?

JG: At that time, they wudn't interested in putting the children in school, because they was afraid. See, the school was close to the main part of the camp, and the children...the families was afraid to sent their children to school, they didn't know what would happen to them.

B: Were there scabs living in the camp? Is that why they were afraid?

JG: Yeah, they were scabs, then, but not as many; in one sense of word. There was not as many, because they, themselves, was so discouraged with what they had gone through with, but, as usual, there was a few that would go back. And then it got to where...After a while, there was more that would go back, and it was during that time, then, that men began to get violent, you see; because my own daddy...With these, uh...people that was brought in to help the companies, and they would try to bring outside people in to work in the mines, it's not like today, you see they'll let your own people go back; but, these would go out of state and bring in people and let...which, the miners didn't like that. They objected to it very much. And, in one particular time, my father had went out with a group of miners to patrol--to keep these people from coming in--and, in the process, he wore overhauls with the galluses that crossed over and come over the shoulder. Now, that was the night that he came so near abein' killed, that his...that it was shot...Where it formed the "x," it was shot in two, that's how... you know, he come getting killed by Baldwin Felts that they brought in here at that time. And they would sneak in and set the tents on fire, th...the men had to be alerted at all times, even for their own sake.

B: They would actually threaten to set the tents on fire?

JG: They did set the tents on fire. They'd pour lamp oil in our meal and our flour.

B: You had mentioned a story to us before we started the tape, would you tell the story again for me?

JG: Um-hum.

B: Okay.

JG: This woman's name was, uh...Maxie Savage. Now, her husband also was a miner and, at that time, they was put out of their company houses, and they lived down there at Lick Creek; what they call Lick Creek, West Virginia. And the state police--the Union had just give them their supply of food, you know, you was given a certain amount and you had to stretch it--and, uh...they had just given her her supply of food, and the state polices came in her tent, poured her food in the floor, and poured kerosene on it. Yeah, they were backing up the company...coal companies.

B: Was she there when they did that?

JG: Her, and her children.

B: What'd she do?

JG: Nothin' she could do. She was scared-to-death afraid, that they'd do something violent to her and her children; hurt 'em. And they would get violent.

B: What would they do when they got violent?

JG: They would hit you with clubs, or things like that, you know. If you tried to resist them, if they wanted to arrest some of the men, you know, and take them to jail, the family would, naturally they would hit you with clubs or sticks or whatever. Gun butts, they would take their gun, and hit them with the butt of the gun.

B: Did you see that happen?

JG: No, I, uh...my mother seen that happen. Now, I didn't get to see that part, but my mother did, it was told to me by her. And, uh... like I said there was so many little things that I do remember distinctly and, uh...I knowed it...It was very hard to survive, and it was during that time that over here at Logan at Blair Mountain, and you might have heard of that story what took place there.

B: Would you tell me what you heard about it, though?

JG: About the Blair Mountain episode?

B: Yes, ma'am.

JG: Well, it was just like...The miners were all grouped together, and they called in the Baldwin-Felts and the state polices, and, uh...they caught these men...They had designated theirselves to be at that particular place, to try to get together and do something, see if they couldn't stop some of the violence that was going on, and they caught them, and there was--just what you might call--a raging war between the coal miners, and the Baldwin-Felts, and the state police. Which, there was death on both sides, but they all but massacred the miners.

B: How did you all hear about that happening? Were there men from your colony that went?

JG: Men in the colony. See, ever...They'd always leave a certain amount of men in the colony, they wouldn't totally leave the women helpless, if they could help it; but then the others would go.

B: Do you remember the names of any of the men that went to Blair Mountain?

JG: Off hand I can't. See, I was rather small. It seems to me, like the most devastating things is what stays with me. Uh... George Parsley, for one, I know went; my father, and he was one of the lucky one that didn't...both of them didn't get killed. There was a Davis man and I can't think of his first name, off hand, but I distinctly remember the other two.

B: Did...

JG: I'd often say Mr. Davis, I just can't remember, off hand, his name.

B: Did your father talk to you about all this stuff later on, when you were older? Did he ever tell you about some of it?

JG: There's so much of it I could remember, and then as we grew older, why it...the things that he'd said became more vivid to me, you see, but I did see it, and I did remember it. And, uh...the things that they did that I didn't see, I heard them talk about.

B: What did you hear your father talking about when he was talking about stuff like this? What would he say?

JG: He'd talked about crawling on his belly, listening in to what they was gonna do in the camp, you know, (listening) to the these Baldwin Felts, and these, uh...mine protectors. He had listened, and then he would crawl back, and then, of course, he would tell his...tell the miners. And they'd be waiting on 'em, sometimes they run into a pretty good fight, you see, but he scouted. My father did a lot of scouting that helped the miners. Sometimes, I wondered if I had a daddy.

B: You say you remember some things distinctly, what...what are some of the other things that you remember about living in the tent colonies that we haven't talked about yet? Is there anything that else that really stands out in your mind?

JG: The one thing particularly that I've--it's always sort of stuck in my mind and as you said unless I told you rather I--we didn't have that much to eat all the time. What we had, we had to just...eat just a small amount, you know, cook it, and make it last as long as we could. Because the, uh...mine officials, if they could catch the, uh...main people that was bringing us food in, they would take it away from them, you see, they'd have a war, almost, with them. But the thing of it is, when we got it we had to be so careful and make...Just like, you'd love to just cook a big lot of food and put it on the table, but you couldn't...you had to allow each day...so much each day for, uh...for family you had. You see, the more family you had, the more you got. But see, there was four of us, and part of the time my father's sister--my Aunt Badey--she stayed with us during that time. And, uh...one thing particular that stands out in my mind, I knowed I was so hungry, so very awful hungry, and they had tried to put off cooking as long as they could in order to make...We had our breakfast, which was oat meal, in order to have just two meals a day, and a child, like I, was really hungry. And they had cooked--my daddy's sister had cooked the meal--my mother had went out and picked some wild greens, that was another thing in our favor in the warm months, and the summer months, there was so many things that we could get out of the mountains, you know, food. Wild greens, oh, they're just delicious; I still eat them today. I get out and pick them today, and still eat them. And, uh...she had cooked, and--I distinctly remember that beautiful pone, as they called it, of corn bread--and she had the table set, and had food on the table. She was waiting for the...my mother and father to...which was out from the tent. They had been kindly scratching around, raising...trying to plant a little garden to help. Someway, somehow, the tent caught on fire. Oh, was I ever so hungry, and it burned down on top of that table of food. To make ends meet, we couldn't destroy it, we just had to brush the tent where it had burned, the ashes...blow it off, brush it off, and eat it.

B: Had it scorched the food, the heat from the fire?

JG: See, tents is like your tents today. They can go up so fast. And, it just...had the ashes from the tent spreaded all over everything. But we ate the food. We blew it off.

B: This corn bread when your aunt cooked it, did she cook it on top of the stove? Was it in..?

JG: No, we had a regular stove, you know, that had an oven to it. It was, uh...a stove that was made...it didn't have a warming oven, it was just like a flat top stove, you know, with a pipe goes up and then here it sets...oh, maybe...three feet so-and-so high, and then it had a door. You had your ash box in front of it, with your caps, and then, on the side, it had a door for an oven, and we put...had that.

B: Oh, okay.

JG: Made delicious bread.

B: What did you all eat in the winter months? I know there isn't much around in the mountains in the winter.

JG: Well, we didn't...I think, before it got too awfully cold, they came to some kind of agreement. We moved back, you see...but it had got pretty cold, 'cause we was wearing heavy...putting all the clothes on we could, you see, and, uh...keeping the fire going in the stove, that was the only heat we had, was the cook stove.

B: So, did you all move that from the kitchen tent into your, uh... living tent?

JG: Yeah, we stayed in there to keep warm and then when we went to bed, well, it was only by the grace of God, that we had enough covers; that we could, uh...kept warm that way.

B: Had you all gotten your tents from the Union? Is that who and..?

JG: Union provided everything for us.

B: I see...Here you have a picture of, uh...of some Union men and "Mother" Jones. Is your father...was your father in that photograph?

JG: No, my father isn't in this photograph. This..."Mother" Jones is...her own people, that she selected, traveled with her.

B: Did your father see her speak, though, when she came to this..?

JG: He followed...When she was around close, when he could get to her, he would go listen to her. She was an inspiration to him. She helped them, you know, courage wise.

B: What did he tell you about her speaking? What would she talk about? Did he say?

JG: Well, she was a pretty rough talking woman, you would have thought she was more of a man, sometimes, with her profanity and her language. And, she would always tell the miners, just...they had...if they didn't hang in, that the company would always be a downfall to them, they would never have anything, their wages would never be anything. And she gave them a lot of courage. Like John L. Lewis did when he helped the miners in his day.

B: Did your father ever get to meet "Mother Jones" or..?

JG: Yes.

B: What did he say about that?

JG: He said she was a rambunctious "lady" feared nothing.

B: Uh-huh. Uh...she wasn't scared of anything, huh?

JG: No. She would talk to anybody, and tell 'em exactly what was what, and what wasn't.

B: Um...

JG: He said she was an inspiration to a lot of the miners.

B: Do you know where that picture was taken?

JG: Nnn...not...

B: We've heard it was there in Matewan, but we we're wondering...

JG: That's...was what I was told. See, the picture was given to my father and my mother. And, it was told to them, and which it was told to me, that it was made in Matewan, and then after I met my husband and we were dating he--like I told you, he lived up here in, uh...Newtown, up Meador--that his father told him this picture was made in Matewan...because his...my husband's father, and my husband, I think when he was just a little feller, you know, they took a load of...a wagon load of, uh...garden vegetable corn and, uh...things they...they farmed up in the head of the creek here, and they, uh... would take uh...wagon loads of vegetables, corn and...At that particular day, they had the problem in Matewan. They had just got through the town, to the lower end of it, when the trouble took place, you see.

B: Did they ever tell you what they heard about what happened? Did they come back into town when they heard the shootin,' or what did they do?

JG: Well, uh..like, uh...my husband told me--I didn't get...his father died before me and him was married--but what Joe could remember of it, was that he hid down among some corn. They heared, you know, all a lot of goin's on, and they stayed down in the lower end of town, away from it. So that, you know...really, just to see other than what that was told to them, or they later heared, or what, until they could get back out. And, as quick as they could get through and back out, why they went on back home. But, he said it was...it sounded terrible.

B: Now the lower end of town is that..?

JG: Toward the new bridge.

B: Okay.

JG: See, what I call...Down below it, you know, toward the new bridge they was a lot of houses and things...people...He sold lots of stuff, uh...to the stores in Matewan, too. But, they was always some people that lived down in there that no longer are there, and the houses are nothing now. He would sale direct to them. In other words, they called it "peddling"...what they called it in those days. When you went from house to house, you "peddled." And they'd always look for him you know...he's always bring fresh vegetables.

B: Did your husband ever hear any stories and tell you about how it started, or who killed who, or anything like that?

JG: I...Now, I remember him a tellin' me that...how he, himself--and that was up here in the head of Mitchell Branch Holler, see he worked at the old Mitchell Branch, now, since then they've built a new tipple, but he worked on what they called the "Old Mitchell Branch Tipple" when they was, uh...trying to get a contract--and he himself said he stayed out when it was so cold his overhauls would freeze on him. And, uh...he often referred to it...that him and his brothers, and some of the men that he called over names by name, you know, but back at that time it was the ones...really got the Union the first time.

B: This is your...

JG: See, he went to work on that tipple when he was only thirteen years old. His father was the tipple boss.

B: What did he do? He was such a young boy?

JG: He dropped cars.

B: So we have it on tape, I'm familiar with that term, but could you describe what that meant?

JG: Dropping cars?

B: Yes, ma'am.

JG: That is where that you take...when you have your tipple, you have all your empty cars above your tipple. He would drop down an empty car under the tipple to be filled with coal, then when it... he would have to go back and get another one and have it down all close enough, that when this one was dropped from under the tipple so far, he would go...bring that one under, then he would take that one on down further to be picked up by the train, the shifter caught the engine when it came out to take the coal away from the mines.

B: Um...How long did he work doing that?

JG: He worked there all his life.

B: Is that what he did?

JG: Went to work he's thirteen years old, and worked up until he retired.

B: Did he ever have to go down in the mines to...to..?

JG: Only one time that he worked in side himself, but his brothers ...he had brothers that worked inside. And...but he, you know, knowed what it was all about. He had been inside. And, he...I think, he worked one week inside, and he didn't like it that well, so he came back...went back on the tipple.

B: Did he work...I mean, did he make less money because he worked on the tipple and not down in the mines?

JG: Well, the...when you worked on the tipple you got less money than you did inside, 'cause, inside the mines it all depended how much coal you put in that car to be brought outside. The coal itself is what played the part. And in those early days, a man had to furnish his own tools, like I told you; his own powder, his own "de-squibs," we called them. Probably you don't know anything what a squib is.

B: No, I haven't heard that.

JG: It was a little object of...about you...like a broom straw. You know what a broom straw is?

B: Yes.

JG: You could take maybe three or four of those and put them together, and you'd have one which was called squib. That would be taken--one end of that--would be taken, and pushed down into your dynamite that you shoot coal with. And it was placed in the place that you wanted the coal, you'd make you a little crevice or a little hole. They had hand daubers 'at they'd take and bore 'em a hole back in the coal and they'd get it so far back, then they'd take this dynamite, with this squib on the end of it, push it back in the hole, set the squib on fire, and then run...to get away from it. And...it would blow the coal down.

B: But each individual miner had to do that? They didn't have one fella that went around and did that?

JG: Not in the early days. You blowed your own coal down, 'cause they'd holler, "fire in the hole," and everybody'd run.

B: I've heard that expression before. I've heard my grandfather say that.

JG: When you heard it, you'd run. As far back as you could, to be a safe distance. They had to buy all of their materials they used, themselves; carbide for their carbide lights. And then they got very, very little per car of coal, some miners never drawed any money. Then they traded at the company stores, you see, which they had companies stores.

B: Did that ever happen to your father?

JG: Yes. Many times. It's like the song, "You Owed Your Soul To The Company Store."

B: Now, I've read things...that people have done research in other places, and they said that women liked going to the company store, that they felt good about it. What did...How did you and your mother feel about having to deal with the company store? Did you all like it or..?

JG: Well, there wasn't anything else to do, because the company issued what is called "script." And you're living from day to day...you didn't have money to go somewhere else. You had to go to the company store. So, that's why that the companies owned a man; body and soul. He had no money. He went to the store--the company store--for food, for clothing, furniture, you rented your houses from 'em. And if you're lucky enough, which we wutn't enough to own any kind of a car, you bought your gasoline at the company store; they had filling stations. If you went to the doctor, it was took over by the company store.

B: Did they ever bring in dentists? Was there ever any dentists that would come in..?

JG: Dentists?

B: Um-hum.

JG: No. I never went to a dentist until I was...lucky enough. I didn't have toothpaste, I didn't know what a tube of toothpaste was. We used soda (baking soda), or, when we was lucky enough, we made homemade soap. If we had a hog, we could raise a hog to take all the meat scraps and things...Lye, we'd make lye soap. That was so good to worsh (wash) with, bring your clothes so pretty and white--worshed on a board--and I've used it for toothpaste. I didn't have toothpaste. I'd have used any kind of soap, at that time. And I used a rag tied around my finger for a toothbrush. I didn't have a toothbrush.

B: When the...Did the women go to the company doctor for...for female things? I mean, did they go to the company doctor for pregnancies?

JG: About the only time a woman ever went to a doctor back in those days...was...if something drastic would develop. When she got pregnant, and she'd knowed she's pregnant, she'd go to the doctor tell him "I'm pregnant," tell him the time and all. Well, he'd tell her the time the baby's to be born. Unless something developed, she never was back in the doctors office. They'd done a lot of their own doctoring, like I told you before, that they was a lot of stuff that was...out of the mountains that people used, and it worked. But...So, they didn't have to pay doctor bills. The mountains are full...of medicine.

B: Did your mother or your grandmother ever tell you some of the herbs and things that they found? Did they ever tell you the names of any of them?

JG: Oh, yes. Ginseng, yellow root, (pause) wait just a minute. poke root. We used to get stone bruises on our feet--not having shoes to wear, you know, all the time--they were devastating. Summer months is usually when you got them. But, to get stone bruises--which would be a form of like an abscess down deep--we'd take what is called plantin'...we'd beat that into a pulp, put on that, and that would draw all the poison from the abscess to the outside.

B: What did you all use poke root for?

JG: 'at was a disinfect.

B: How about yellow root? What did you all use...

JG: Yellow root was a medicine that you could use for mouth...you could use it for a mouth problem, if you had, uh...uh...You chew it.

B: Okay. How about ginseng? What'd you use that for?

JG: Well, it's more or less like yellow root. You take, uh...ginseng, and boil it, if you had diarrhea or a stomach problem it would help your stomach.

B: Did your father ever talk about a Union man called Charlie Kiser? Did you ever hear of Charlie Kiser?

JG: Yeah, I know Charlie Kiser. We learned (knew) them after we moved up in this...My father knew him well.

B: What'd your father say about him? We've heard, you know, a lot...We've actually heard a lot of things about him, more so than Sid Hatfield.

JG: Well, Charlie was a Union man, we know that, and he worked hard for the Union. He worked about as hard--you know, like I said this is from way back, up 'til Charlie's time--he worked hard for the men, Union (men).

B: Did your father ever say what kind a man he was? Was he a hard man..?

JG: He always liked him, he always liked him, got along with him good. See, Charlie Kiser's family was all in the head of the creek, you had to pass their place before you got to my husband's place. So, they were all real close friends, neighbors. Stella was my husband's first teacher. She was just a youngun (young one), you know.

B: Really?

JG: Uh-huh.

B: What did he tell you about having her for a teacher? Did he tell you anything? JG: He said that, uh...thought well, "Huh, we can get away with anything, we know her," you know. But he said that...he found out that she was really strong, you know, in her belief as a teacher. But I don't see how she stood it, uh...hardly could handle them. As much as...Stella herself told me, she says, "You know they wutn't that bad, just unruly boys and a bunch just like we always was." And she said, uh..."When I told them anything, they'd listen, they seemed like they wanted to learn." And Joe said he always felt like that, uh..."Huh, I never thought she'd be my teacher." She was that much older...you know, some older than him, but not too much older. Just like I said, she went to teaching as a youngun herself.

B: Did your father ever mention Sid Hatfield or Ed Chambers? Did he ever meet them?

JG: No. See, my father when he, uh...uh...was in the Union, or working for the Union so hard was, uh...in the Chattaroy Collary, Howard Collary, Chattaroy and, uh...those places. And...But it wasn't up until, uh...I think about--I don't know why I didn't write all this down years ago--I know we first moved to New Howard and even then it was rough. No Union or anything at that time. And, uh...it was after that they beginned to...beginned, you know, that kinda talk, more talking. It was then that we beginned to learn about the Chambers; what had happened to them.

B: Okay. What do you remember hearing about Ed Chambers or Reece Chambers? Do you ever remember hearing about them. Was that who..?

JG: No, it's just, uh...Well, now, my husband, like I said, he had talked to them about it, but he...like I told you, he knowed all of them and having been a little boy going through town with...in a wagon peddling and things like that. And, uh...when they had the problem, we talked about it and everything. They just happened to be at the lower end of the town, and after it was done and over with, they finally got back out and went on home. But he...Later, like I said, they heard what went on--this, that, and the other--he said it was really terrifying. They'd knowed all the Chambers and the Hoskins, because a lot of them bought off of him, his father, you see...produce.

B: How long did you go to school when you were young?

JG: I went about three-fourths of the way into the 10th grade.

B: This is Becky Bailey for the Matewan Development Center, Saturday, July 22nd, 1989. I'm adding this on the beginning of tape two of Jennie Grimmett's interview, because the beginning introduction on tape one was lost.

B: Mrs. Grimmett we were just talking, before I started the tape, about what life used to be like when you were younger, and we were talking about gardening. Uh...Could you tell me how you all used to prepare your pickled corn?

JG: Well, the one thing that is, uh...interesting in my life, that I can go back and sort of be justified in knowing that I have had a part in all of this. As...as far back as I can remember as a little girl growing up, we always had to have a garden, and I we always preserved whatever we had. We would raise our corn, and then we'd take our corn and bring it in after it ripened, and shucked it--removed all the shuck from it--pare (power) boil it and then take...put it in a large barrel, pour water on it, and then add salt, according to the amount of corn, and the size of your barrel. Cover it thoroughly with several layers of heavy cloth, and tie it real tight, and let nature take it's course. And then, in the winter months, all you had to do is go out and get that corn, and take...cut it off of the cob, put it in meat grease where you fry bacon and save all your grease. Which is another thing that we learned to do, uh...improvise every bit of food that we would have. This is the things that we learned to do, that helped us out. And uh...our pickled beans was done much on...the same way; put in a barrel, or large crock churns, and...whatever was available was what you used. And, uh...there was so many things, that when we were growing up it was a case of have to, because we didn't have much money, we...That...he wutn't, uh... lucky enough, all the time, to hold a job, and when he did hold a job, he worked hard with such a little pay, and it...I said we always belonged to the company store, they owned us in once sense of word. But, by providing a lot of our foods by home canning, anything we could get, we made apples...canned apples, we made apple butter, we made apple jelly, we picked berries in summer months, we canned berries, we made apple, uh...berry jelly. We never wasted, we always did all the little things that come natural to do, and, uh...I can look back and see what I have done, even as a small child. Even today, that really I don't have to...I still pickle corn, and I still pickle beans, I can any vegetable that I can get. I have a lot of good friends that has gardens, that isn't garden vegetables. I can.

B: How old would a little girl have to be before she could help in the garden and then learned to help can things? How old would a little girl have to be?

JG: You learned real early in life, by watching. You used to have to carry the water bucket, to carry water to the family, you know, that would be a working. They couldn't quit and run to the house all the time to get...to drink some water. That was what we start-ed out with, carrying the bucket of water, and you learnt by watch-ing. And, then, by the time you're, uh...four or five, six years old, you started putting plants in the ground; pepper plants, set-tin' onions in a bed. And it was fun...if you liked to play in dirt, it was fun. (LAUGHING) B: Where would you all get your plantlings, or your seedlings, or the seeds? Did they have to be bought at the company store, too?

JG: Yes, most of the time they were bought. Some local groceries would have them, you see, and uh...Just about everything we had would come from a...company store.

B: When did you all get electricity? Do you remember?

JG: Lets see...I think it's...I was about ten year old, maybe. We moved to one place, where we lived we didn't have electricity and, uh...we had to move to another place. And, uh...in moving to that other place...they had electric lights in the company houses, at that time. And it was, uh...maybe, like I said, my father some-times would have to work at one mines and, uh...they'd have a cut off, or something, and he'd get cut off. Then, we'd go somewhere else to another place, another town, and he'd get a job. Maybe one of them have electricity, and the others wouldn't have, you see.

B: What did you all use in the places that did not have electricity? What did you all use for lighting? Say...

JG: Lamp oil.

B: Lamp oil?

JG: Uh-huh. We had what we called "oil lights," and you could pack 'em from room to room.

B: Okay.

JG: Did you ever see one?

B: Yes, ma'am. We have some of my grandmothers. Okay I guess... some of the stories that, um...I wanted to pick back up from yesterday was, you told me a story after we cut the tape, about "Mother" Jones and chewing tobacco. Would you tell me that story again?

JG: Well, it's like I said, uh...uh...My husband's family seen her, "Mother" Jones, and my husband seen her, uh...My father saw her, but I didn't have the privilege of coming on a one-to-one with her, myself. But, uh...hearing them talk, that she could take a chew of tobaccer whether it would be plug tobaccer or in a paper sack--most of the time it was plug, called, uh...Shoe Peg, in a twist, it was formed in a twist called Shoe Peg--and, uh...she'd break her off a bite...a good size piece of that, and put it in her mouth and start chewing on it just like her men that followed her around. And, uh...When she got it worked up pretty good, she could "pa-chu," spit two or three yards out in front of her.

B: And you said if people didn't move out of her way, she'd hit them with it?

JG: She always demanded her, uh...right-a-way. When she came, they didn't bunch too much around her, because the men, that went along with her...and, uh...If they begin to get in front of her, she'd just go right on, and take her hands, "Over boys...over boys," and demanded her way, right o' way, among them. But, yet, she, uh...gave 'em good advice. She talked to 'em, she could use some mighty powerful language, so my husband, uh...said. And, uh... jokes didn't get too bad for her, because...She could always take 'em in her stride, and tell somethin' that would just about over-come what they said. She was a really down to earth person, and she didn't demand, she could be in a bunch of people...and be one of them.

B: So, she was for the working man?

JG: Working man, and working man only, and she would really fight for the working man. And, none of the operators was ever too big, too important, for what she couldn't hold her own with them. In any kind of a conversation, she could hold her own with 'em.

B: Okay. Did your father ever mention Bill Blizzard?

JG: Yes.

B: What did he say about him?

JG: Well, uh...he was part of the Union, you know, big worker in the Union. He liked him. He was for the Union men...for the poor man, he really was. And, some of the things that I later read in articles that my father had kept around--and everything like that-- I, too, myself, could see that he was a real strong, strong person, dedicated to what he believed in. And everybody like him, they really did. And he fought, and fought hard, for the working man.

B: How about the, uh...the Captain Brockus, that was on the other side, against the miners, during the Battle of Blair Mountain? Did your father ever say anything about hearing about a Captain Brockus?

JG: As much as I can remember--not too awful much can I remember ber--I know they were very, very much against him, they didn't care for him. And I've heard some pretty bad name calling, you know, hearing my father and some of the other men calling, you know. They definitely didn't...wasn't for the working man, had no intentions of being for the working man, and, uh...One...Seems like there's one thing that come to my mind a little bit. He made sort of a reference that, uh...a miner should be treated as what he was, like a ground hog in a hole.

B: That's what Brockus said? I was wondering if your father ever said anything, because Charlie Elliott mentioned that a friend of his was killed by Brockus during the mining wars. So, I was wondering if you'd heard?

JG: Like I said, being young you don't...just some things, more or less, will stick with you. And, uh...I was young, but I was old, if you can understand what I mean. I think it was the life that we had to live, survival, that made us, more or less, older than our age was. And they was so much (people in the family) that you never throwed out anything. If you had some, uh...of a dish... this dish left over--some left over in this dish--it, and maybe another one...If you was lucky enough to have more than two dishes, you could combine those and have a another dish for another meal, by adding, maybe, some little something else to it, to improvise it. And gravy was the "main stay" for man kind.

B: How did you all make gravy? Was..?

JG: Well, it's very simple to make, and a very, very delicious dish, because we still make the same gravy today like I made when I was a little girl, and watched my mother make when I was...You would make it with milk, flour, and--if you was lucky enough to have some--what we call bacon grease. Which, we saved every drop, or if you didn't, you used plain lard. You took the amount of grease that you'd...-Say, you'd want to make three, four cups of gravy--depending of the size of your family--maybe more for larger families, 'cause it went a long way. And you would take your, uh... whatever shortening you had, put you some flour in that, and you'd stir all that up and you'd have, uh...'til it would be slightly on the, uh...thick, just mildly thick, 'til it would brown. Then you'd take and pour your milk in that, salt and pepper it, keep stirring it, and it would thicken. And, believe you me, it is one good bowl with hot biscuits.

B: Okay.

JG: And I would be...I still make gravy...even though I'm living by myself, now. I still make myself milk gravy and hot biscuits. But, thanks to be to the Union, I have more to eat than I had as a child.

B: You said something yesterday about when you were--especially when you all lived in the tent colonies--you lived in fear. Would you explain that on tape for me?

JG: Well, we never knew when the coal company would sent in their thugs on us. My father would lay out and watch--they had men watching all the time--would lay out at night time and watch see that no harm come to the families around the tent colonies. As I also told you about Mrs. Savage having the problem she had, with the state polices that was with the Union, or with the, uh...coal companies; pouring lamp oil on her...on the food that the Union had brought to them.

B: Was there...Did they try to teach the children how to...who to trust as far as men were concerned?

JG: You learned early.

B: How did you learn to tell the difference?

JG: You listened. You listened to your parents, the people that are around you. When you're in that sort of condition, everybody helps...everybody helps look out for the other's children, or families. You depend, you have to depend. And, if there's any fear... Everyone is together as a whole, watching, in order...if it's something, that they all can try to protect each other.

B: So, the children were never allowed to be alone with these thugs that came in..?

JG: No, no, no. No way. Your children was kept in the camp. But, I guess, as usual, one could sneak away. You had so many watching you, it was hard to get away. But, uh...the men folks kept a close watch on their...the tent colonies. They would be so many men watching the tent colonies, while the others went to do what they had to do, you see, in order to get the protection.

B: Um...You mentioned, also, that you're related to the Hatfields that fought in the feud. Would you tell me tell about that?

JG: Yes. My mother's father was, uh...Devil Anse's grandson. He ...This is the story that, uh...His mother wasn't married, and, at that time, it was pretty much, you know, unheard of, uh...things like that wasn't suppose to happen. And, uh...my grandfather's mother went to live with a family named Anderson, and she stayed with them--the baby was born there--and she stayed with them. And when she left, to go back to her home, after, oh ,I think grandpa was, maybe, around two years old, they let her come back and...but they wouldn't let her bring my grandfather, and the Anderson family raised him. And, uh...but he always knew that he was a Hatfield.

B: Which son was his father? Do...Was...I assume it was one of Devil Anse's sons then that was his father? Your grandfather's father?

JG: His...one of his daughters.

B: Oh, okay.

JG: Yeah.

B: Oh, so one of Devil Anse daughters...

JG: I don't know the names of them all. I just know that, what my grandfather told me, and what my mother--down through the years --told me about it. And, uh...I think, my mother...When I was really small, this I don't remember, but I remember, my mother-- 'cause my grandmother was still alive--and, uh, she'd went over to where they lived, at that time, and tried to talk to, uh...some of them about it, but they didn't want to talk about it.

B: So, you never knew who it was in Devil Anse's family that was your father's...your grandfather's...parents?

JG: They didn't want to talk about it. So, the Anderson family that raised him, they told...they always reminded him, that he was Hatfield blood, you know, and that, uh...When my mother went to try to find...the Anderson family had died, you see, so she couldn't get that...the other parties didn't want discuss it. But, uh...my husband also is. His grandmother, Hanna, was a sister to Devil Anse, and she mar...married Floyd Grimmett, my husband's grandfather. We didn't know...I didn't know about this until quite a few years after we married, but it wouldn't have made any difference anyway. He was a fine man, and I loved him very much.

B: Would you tell me some about Hanna's stories that she would tell you about the Hatfield family?

JG: She used to...she told me...Hanna was a loveable lady, and, uh...she could always remember quite a bit back in her family's life, and she always talked about her, uh...Devil Anse. He would ride a mule through the mountains from where he lived--over in the, uh...toward Logan County there--he could ride through the mountains and come out where they lived, up here above Meador, going around toward Red Jacket. But, he would ride his mule through the mountain and stop at their house, stay all night with them, and she said she always loved to hear him talk, that he could tell some great, great stories, and that he had a bear that he caught as a young cub and trained it. And he always told her that if she's come over and stay around with him, that he'd let her play with the "bar." It's fascinating to listen to Hanna tell the stories, some of 'em, concerning the things that he did. And he would...she said he would always tell her stories about things that had actually happened in his life, in growing up and then, uh...They were moun-tain people, they were good people, and they would do anything in the world for you. They would help out people, and when they was having hard times, they were good to help supply them with certain needs that they would have. And she said that he was a gentle person, one of the most gentle men you ever talked to. And, then, coming to their house to stay all night...why, then the next morning, he would get up and get his mule and cross another mountain and go over down into Beech Creek and visit folks--I think he had some family that lived down in there, too--and on his way back, he'd cross the Beech Creek coming side over into Meador, stop and stay all night with them, get up the next morning; over the mountain, and back over into Logan County.

B: Would you've known about what time this was? Was this in the early 1900's or..?

JG: Oh...Why, no, this is back earlier than that. Because this was, uh...when my husband--my husband is, uh...seventy-nine years old, had he been living right now--and he was just a baby, he doesn't even remember any of this stuff. And Hanna is, uh...oh, I'd say they is about four children in between her.

B: Okay. Late eighteen hundreds?

JG: Yeah, yeah, uh-huh. Every bit of that.

B: What was, uh...your husband and Hanna's grandmother's name? Did the ever tell you which of Devil Anse's sisters?

JG: Yes. Devil Anse married...Uh...their grandfather, Floyd Grimmett, married Hanna Hatfield.

B: Okay. I wanted to double check that. So, Hanna--the Hanna that you knew--was probably named for her then?

JG: That's right. She was named after her grandmother...Hatfield, Grimmett.

B: By that time, was Devil Anse ever...Did he ever talk about his Civil War experiences? Did he ever tell her Civil War stories?

JG: Not that I remember, you know, or anything about that. He always, uh...I can't remember him telling me anything about his Civil War...

B: Okay. Did anybody on either side of your families ever tell Civil War stories? Were there ever any family members that people would talk about?

JG: Not in my family, I...

B: Okay.

JG: No, I can't...it doesn't come to me...it doesn't...

B: You had said there, yesterday, that the Maynards came from England. What...How did you find out about that?

JG: Uh...let me think for a few minutes. There was an old gentleman, I can't think of his name right off hand, right now, he was, uh...a college professor, and, uh...we was having a Maynard reunion --and he was one of the speakers--and, in discussing ancestors of Maynards that were there at that day, he had re... referred back that the Maynards originally immigrated from England. And, at the time that they were in England, they were of a very wealthy ancestor, a people...they were Knights.

B: Did he tell any stories about how they came to America, or why? Can you think of anything about why they came?

JG: Uh...off...Let me see...a few minutes...It comes to me, but, uh...why didn't I think of this before? Maybe I could have, uh... There's some way, I know we was at Maynard reunion and the old gentleman was talking, this...He was talking about some of the royalty, of the Maynards, that had came over on a boat--I don't know what the boat was, right off I can not remember, but they had come over on a boat--with the intentions of going back.

B: Oh, okay.

JG: But they didn't, they stayed.

B: Okay.

JG: And that's how the Maynards to be in...The first known Maynards...

B: Okay.

JG: My name was from England, and they had come over. And some of them stayed, and some of them went back. That's the way he said, because there was a large group of them that came.

B: Okay.

JG: And there's quite a few of them, now.

B: I know...I think I ask you yesterday if you were related to any of the Maynards over towards Williamson that were in law enforcement.

JG: Yes.

B: How are you related to them?

JG: Uh...just like my father you see. He's, uh...about all the Maynard's been around Mingo County and Wayne County--and my father has a lot of Maynards that live in Wayne County--and they run their history, they're all related.

B: Okay.

JG: They...When you...When you really stop to think--about the Maynards--you'll find them just about anywhere you go; around here, in Kentucky, West Virginia.

B: Did you ever meet any of the ones that were police people? Did you ever meet any of the Maynards that were police people?

JG: Oh, yes...

B: One of the questions we've also been asking people that were related to mines was if they ever heard of a group--now, not the Wild Cat Strike--but a group called the "Wild Catters." Did you ever hear of a group of men, back in the '20's and '30's, called the "Wild Catters?"

JG: Yes, they were referred to as that. They also had another name, but I can't get it to my mind right now, what it is. But, they what was called rov-ing...rove...you know, they'd rove...It was "rovers," they went form place to place, mines to mines.

B: Okay. Now, what did they do?

JG: Well, pretty much what--not as serious...serious, at that time, but, still yet, it was not--pretty much like it is today. They always wanted better for the people.

B: Oh, okay. Oh, could it be the walblies (?), the I.W.W? Have you heard of that? But they were called the walblies(?), they were...it was the I.W.W., but it was...Oh...Okay. Well, go ahead, I'm sorry.

JG: But these men went from place to place. And they were pretty much like, you know, wanting better for the miners...and it just --not just the miners only, in one sense of the word--anyone. Because, in those early days, it was, you know...They could take advantage of you as much, almost--but today, you see, they stand up for themselves a little more today--back in those days, because ...I don't know whether it was fear or, uh...they just, more or less, didn't want to get involved. But they learned. Even the farmers learned.

B: Okay. The man who told me about that was Rex Harmon, and he said there was a group of wild--they called themselves the "Wild Catters--" that if a boss was mistreating his men, these "Wild Catters" would dress up, and beat him up, or whatever it took, to make him behave himself. Had you ever heard of that?

JG: Yes, and I've also...another group, if I can think of the names of them. They would dress in white sheets...they'd be white.

B: Wasn't the "Klan" was it? The Klu-Klux-Klan? Is that who it was?

JG: Yes...yes. Now, them I've had experience...I didn't see them, but I could hear my family, as well as other families, talking, and it would scare me, in a manner, to death, to listen at them. And everything would be just hush, hush. Because they'd be close enough, that you was always, you had to be careful...Us children was always told not to talk to anybody, unless we specifically knowed them. If anybody strange walked up to us, and started to, wanted to talk to us, for us to run as hard as we could run; get away from them. And I'd hear my parents talk about that they could see them, they...sometimes...Now, they wouldn't let us...you know, that way...we could only hear them talk, but I could hear them say that they were marching with, uh...like a stick, like, you know--torches--and everyth-ing...but you'd be real, real quiet. You'd even blow out your light, your lamp light, so everything would be dark. But, now, to see them, I didn't. But I could hear 'em, and I could feel it.

B: Where were you all living when you remember this? Do you know?

JG: Nolan.

B: Who did the "Klan..." Was there a group that you knew, that the "Klan" directed their activities towards? You know, in other places they would try to intimidate the blacks. Do you know who they were...they were..?

JG: No, as far as...See, when I lived in Nolan as a little girl, they was only one black family that lived in Nolan. And they lived way back up on a hill, for we lived down here where...they lived way back up on a hill. Even though there was a white family by them, they got along beautifully. They never bothered nobody. There was only one (black) family that lived in Nolan when I was a little girl, and, uh...Other than them, the only other black people I've saw, was when we'd ride the train and the brakeman would be a black man. Uh...and that's the only contact I had with them. But, these that lived at Nolan were very nice people. They bothered nobody; nobody bothered them. The gentleman would work; stop at the store; get his groceries; if people spoke, he spoke. He never spoke first. They...He would speak to them, get his groceries, turn around, walk out, go directly on home. But they never bothered anybody. In our town, nobody bothered them.

B: How about the other ethnic groups? You know, there's a lot of talk about Italians and Hungarians coming into the coal field early in this century. Did ya'll ever have any Italians or Hungarians?

JG: No, uh...right here in Red Jacket there was a lot of Italians, great number of Italians...Hungarians. They all got a long fine. As far back as I can remember of them being here at Red Jacket, no problems, lived next door to the Negroes, you know, other than...Hungarians. And, uh...they worked side by side. Now this Manuel Barrios that lives around here, go down toward...go up to main Red Jacket, his ...he was borned and raised here. His family...His father came over when he was young. And they've been here all these many years. They's a lot of it up...uh...there's quite a few of them. They all worked together, got a long just fine.

B: There's, a...story about here in Matewan, about the "Klan" would come up in the Sunday service at the Methodists church, and they'd marched in and put money in the collection plate, and then turned around and walked out...

JG: Now, I've heard that. I didn't live here, you know, at that time, but I heard that after we moved here, that the klans would do that. They never disturbed anything they just walk in place their, uh... contribution turn around and walk back out.

B: Hum...

JG: Now having to see it, no, I didn't see that, but I heard of it.

B: Did you ever hear your parents when they lived at Nolan, did they ever say why the klan was marching? Did you ever overheard them say about why they klan would have been out?

JG: They was one time and I was very small, like I said, when you...parents sensed fear...you sensed fear. And my parents was the type that didn't talk much in front of us to keep us from being scared, you know. But it vaguely I can remember at one time they talked about hooded people marching. I didn't see this, because they always kept us in the house closed doors all of that, but to hear them talk naturally us children would be scared to death. We's almost afraid to breath. But I did hear of them talking...now, like I said, and I's very young at that time.

B: How about World War I? Did any of your parents families did any of their brothers fight during World War I?

JG: My father didn't. I think back in that time he, uh...the coal company kept him out. Had it not been for that he'd probably had to went but they kept out...the better workers.

B: Okay. How about the flu epidemic of 1919? Did your parents or your family ever talk about that? Did you ever hear about...

JG: Uh...what now?

B: The flu epidemic that followed World War I in 1919. You would of...

JG: Oh, yes...

B: Been a baby...

JG: Yes...yes...that was when I heard my mother talk about my grandmothers oldest daughter and she developed it. And my grandmother having to wait on her she took the other children out to a neighbors house. The neighbor kept the other children and she kept...my aunt's name is Demy, Aunt Demy. She kept her home and took care of her. She died during the episode of it. She was so sick that the neighbors kept my grandmothers other children that was, uh...the ones that, uh...at that time she later had other children. But I did hear my mother talk about it of course my mother.-..she wasn't borned at that time but I heard her talk about my grandmother. That it was so bad they wasn't the...a patient died they could only carry her to the gate, that was far as...they wouldn't set the casket. they brought the casket set it in the yard they had to put... take care of everything. Then carry it back out and set it at the gate. Go back in the house and there was people coming by to took and buried her.

B: And so was this before you were born or...

JG: Oh, yeah.

B: Okay. And what year was this did I hear you I thought you said this was before your mother was born?

JG: Uh...either that or she was a baby...I can't remember. My grandmother had quite a few children. And this oldest one, oh, if I could just think of the names of...seemed like her name was Aunt Demy. I know it was...Aunt Demy. Now if...it's been so many years ago to, you see. But I vaguely remember. I thought it was so odd what made it stick with me is carrying the casket to the gate. And then coming off and leaving them. Then other people picking them up. Now that's one things more or less stuck in my mind.

B: So it could have been the flu epidemic of 1919?

JG: Yeah um-hum.

B: Okay.

JG: Yeah cause my mother hadn't...hadn't married she was just a young girl at home.

B: Okay. Lets see now....

JG: I stayed alot with my grandmother when I was a little girl, the night, uh...she was getting rather elderly at that time and, uh...I would go up of the night and stay with her and then come back home the next morning early down to where we lived, you know, was just good running distance for a youngun. And I would stay and to come back home and eat my supper and play around just time to go up and stay all night with grandma. And get up the next morning early and go back home until she died. She died when I was a little girl. But they was so much that...she give me information about the families and things like that, you know. Telling the tall tales all the goodies.

B: Do you remember any of the stories that she told you?

JG: See her husband was my grandfather Hatfield raised by the Andersons and, uh...he ran off and left her when, uh...my mothers baby sister my Aunt Adey (Ada) was just a little tiny thing. My mother never seen him no more until he had married another woman and had four children by her and I was about, uh...ten years old. First time I seen my grandfather. And it was in the latter years that through him and what my mother and my grandmother...what grandmother things that she told me before she died.

B: How many children had your grandfather and your grandmother had together before he left?

JG: Oh, lets see...eight.

B: Eight. What kind of work did he do? Did she tell you?

JG: No, at that time I was just wondering how people lived? They'd uh...cut down wood and sale it, you know. Loggin,' uh...loggin' talk they call it. And, uh...they had their lumber meals things like that those that could work in the mines...work-ed in the mines you see. My grandfather did a lot of work in the coal mines and things.

B: So did...

JG: He was another one of the old ones that had to work hard long hours, you know. Like my father.

B: Do you know how long your grand father worked in the mines because he seemed like he would have been an older man when they really started up the mines around here?

JG: Well, he left, like I said, he left my grandmother in, uh... stayed gone, uh...it wasn't 'til I was I guess six or seven years old something like that before I ever seen him again. I never did see him before that. I'd heard about him and he had left and went way off somewhere. Can't even remember now where it was. Started another family.

B: Okay.

JG: My grandmother by she the grace of...lovely people in Nolan community that she lived...she worked for them house work and worshed clothes on the board for them...kept her family...raised her family. I remember this may not mean much to you but I remember my mother telling the time when she was a little girl my grandmo-ther was a worshing for a day that day and she had plate there wasn't any food in the house and that she had, uh...uh...grandma had to worsh, get the worshing done and, uh...before the lady would pay her to come home and get some groceries so that she could cook their supper for them that night and my mother said that when they went to school they always come in of the evening everyone had a certain chore to do. They had to get all the work done, you know, that had to be done before dark. And she said she was more or less, uh...skipping up and down the road barefooted she was skipping along and said she went along said she seen this shinny little like metal said she though wonder what that is...she skipped on by it and said she stopped all of the sudden and said, "I wonder if that's a piece of money." And she went back and found it, it was a quarter, and she said she flew...as her feet could run to the store and got a ten pound bag of meal for a quarter...and run back home with that sack of meal. And grandma had come in just a little bit after that and said she'd told what she'd done. And mother had poured some of the meal out in the bowl was trying to get it so she could have the bread baked for grand...before she got in...but grandma got in and she ask her she said, "Where did you get that money?" She said, "Mom, I found it," she said, "Are you positive that you found that much money?" And she said, "Yes I'll take you and show it to you," she said, "I thought it was an old piece of, uh..." what they called, uh... "Shoe Peg" tobaccer, it's tobaccer that's twisted in a twist. And they put this little metal piece that's got advertising on it but the back side is real shinny. And that was what was a laying up, you know, mother thought that's what it was. And she said what made her go back and get it she'd never know if it was a real quarter. And the first thing she though of was getting something to eat.

B: Um...that is a good story. Cause most children would have gone and bought candy.

JG: Uh-huh.

B: Okay. Let me ask you a little bit about when you went to school as a child. What kind of...what do you remember abut [sic] your school days? How did they teach you all say how to read that you remember?

JG: Well, really and truthfully, I went...started school in Nolan. And we had what I guess they call it kindergarten today. But in my day it was called the primer. You had to go in the primer first. That was the first year. And I distinctly remem-ber what was taught a little story about baby Ray. The things that baby Ray did. All the little things that little small children do, you know. Down the mud puddle, and baby Ray wondered what the mud puddle was. Who put the mud puddle there. He stuck his foot in a little bit then back. His first mud puddle so you can imagine so...I'm in the primer and then I went to Nolan school, then you went in the first grade and on up. And I was in the, uh...fifth or sixth grade I believe it was that the...and then for a while we moved to Portsmouth, Ohio dad thought he could find better work, work was hard to find, and he thought he could find better work. He had been working in the coal mines at there at big Splint. And, uh...he'd left and went down there we...we didn't stay down there more than...we got to go part of a school in Ohio. Then we moved back to Nolan again. He went back to the mines in Nolan then we moved up to, uh...what's this...but I know that my first early, uh...childhood was in Chattaroy holler when I told you it went to tent colony. Then we was in Nolan, then we went to Ohio for a while came back and that's when we come up to New Howard down here below Matewan. From that time on we always remained here. New Howard into Matewan into Red Jacket.

B: Okay. When did you all move to the Red Jacket area?

JG: Um....way back in the thirties.

B: Okay. What kind of games did children play in school when you were a little girl in school?

JG: Oh, you played ring around the rosy, and, uh...London Bridge. We played tag. Use to be a jumping game we played but I can't off hand remember the name of it..it's, uh...we had to jump...jump so far and believe me you'd give it all you had to jump. And you had to throw your marker. You had a little old pebble or whatever, you know, would be your marker and if you throwed you had to jump then.

B: It wasn't hopscotch was it?

JG: No, we...it wasn't...it wasn't called hop scotch then. Might have later developed but it was a little...some kind of a little jumping game that we played. It wasn't called hop scotch. Cause I didn't know what hop scotch was 'til I got up...I went to...one time we went to Ohio and I learned I was calling it my thing and they laughed at me hop scotch.

B: Did the boys and the girls ever play together or did they...

JG: Yeah. Yeah we was always allowed to play together at school but we had more school patrol there'd be teachers on the ground. They kept them well, to me, I though exceptionally well under control because when they told us to do something we did it. No...we didn't talk back, we didn't make no caddy remarks. We did what they told us to do.

B: How long was your school day? Do you remember about how long during the day you went had to go to school?

JG: Well, we'd got from nine to twelve and then we'd have, uh... nine to eleven thirty I think it was then we'd have our lunch go right back into the school room and stay 'til four o'clock that evening. If you got your lesson you didn't you stayed after school 'til you did get it.

B: About how big were the schools that you went to? Were they mostly one room schools or did you go to...was there more than one room to the school?

JG: Our schools was the one that I started going to school, uh... you know had it each room. I first had a three room and we went in that and then you went over in...and then they finally made away with that and put it all over in, uh...

B: Big school?

JG: Um-hum.

B: Okay. Alright...how about holidays? How did you all celebrate holidays say Christmas?

JG: We enjoyed Christmas and didn't have nothing almost to enjoy with but believe you me really enjoyed Christmas and we hung up our socks. And those black socks that came up above my knees we'd always hand one and it was always had...we never got much. But we got something in the sock. I always ask for books. I was a book person. I've always got a small doll, and my sister always got the largest doll because she would want the doll more so than I would, I wanted a book. And we'd get little candy, few nuts, very few. And our, uh...presents wasn't very...of course they cost a lot to them at that time. You, uh...the amount that you paid for would be nothing today, but at that time it was a great sum of money. And, uh...we always enjoyed it. Uh...we'd always have chicken and dumplings for Christmas dinner. Momma'd make a pumpkin pie and a apple pie. Such as we had we were thankful to have it...it was good.

B: How about July 4th? Uh...we've heard that was a bigger holiday

JG: Do what

B: July 4th, that July 4th was a bigger holiday years ago than it is now.

JG: Well, it was in a way we always liked Christmas pretty much as children. Now July the 4th would you believe that I was a great big girl, and I mean a big girl I'd say around thirteen years old before I eat my first piece of watermelon.

B: Why is that?

JG: They wudn't around.

B: Huh. How come you all to get the that year?

JG: Well, we just happened to be at, uh...if I remember we lived in, uh...New Howard and it was at close enough, you know, at the stores to get it. They just didn't bring them in back when I was a little girl. Like in the stores you didn't find watermelons at the stores, cantaloupes at the stores or anything like that.

B: How about ice cream? Did you all have ice cream?

JG: Yes, we took our bowls to the store. The store people, clerks got them big long cans that sit down in freezers in the floor. You'd take your bowl or whatever and to the store and they would fill up so many ? that you needed. Charge you so much for it. Which wasn't...it was sky high then but today compared to ice cream. it wouldn't of been. You wouldn't have to pay that much for it.

B: How about at home? Did you all have an ice box or what did you all do to keep things cold like your milk and things?

JG: No, not all the time. I don't remember when was real small of us ever having a ice box. We always lived...was lucky enough to live where there was cold branch of water it was always so nice and clean. And the banks would be up high and we could take and put our, uh...milk or butter whatever...you didn't get milk in cartons. People churned, they had their cows. You had your own milk. But butter we just the milk like it was, you know, we churn it and drink it warm and drink the milk warm, sweet milk warm. So much left out to drink and then so much went into the churn, you know, to churn. We'd take and put our butter in a lard bucket with a tight lid on it and take it down and have a stake drove on the creek bank and then tie a rope to it and let it hang down in that cold water.

B: Interview tape number three. You were just beginning to say old people use to...we were talking about keeping things cold in the creek.

JG: Yeah. Old people, uh...learned to improvise in so many ways to take care of their foods. And it was...it's hard but it always it solved it's problem like I told you about the butter, and, uh... if you had a cow you had, you know, much better way of providing more for you to have to eat. But the, uh...I can remember when I was a little girl that we would get out food when we would buy it. This was before...uh...this was, uh...my father was working at the Big Splint Coal Company then. And we didn't have a coal company store. And it paid off in script. And we traded with, uh...an old gentleman we always growing up we were never allowed to call old people by their name we always had to call them, uh...Uncle John or Aunt Becky or whatever, you know. Uncle John Hensley had a store. He kept the post office too. And, uh...he would take our script and we'd get groceries that way. And, uh...had they had see Big Splint had a company store see we wouldn't have gotten script. It's..it was fun hard time but fun. I wouldn't..I wouldn't change it. now that I can look back and know the good times that I have had down through the years. Better I wouldn't change anything in my life about growing up. Because it has meant a lot to me. I've got a lot to think about that I can go back and feel grateful to God that I had the experience of seeing...doing the things that I did. It's been rewarding.

B: What do you remember about the Great Depression? You were about almost a teenager then.

JG: Right. You couldn't keep a job. Poor old dad love his heart. He'd work one place but they'd get cut off he'd get work at another place. Lucky enough to find something maybe he'd stay a pretty good while and you learn to improvise like I've have told you all my life. It's something that we learned to do. And today I even improvise today...today.

B: Really?

JG: Because I've put up like I've told you all kinds of foods and make the different things canned. Back then you did and another thing I feel like we didn't have a lot of candy and junk food as we can refer to it in this area, time, to eat. We eat food. We ate food that was good for us. And we ate food and it lasted a long time. So you didn't average a bowl of oat meal for breakfast. And then way up in the day or evening toward the evening you cooked your next meal. You'd eat then. And the food that you ate the type of food you had lasted you. We never had candy. Only time we got candy would be, uh...maybe we'd have a few pennies of script left over from, uh...getting script why we'd buy a nickels worth of candy.

B: Do you remember any of the names of the candies that you all bought? I know Pauline Roberson said she use to get a thing called a B-bat.

JG: Well, I didn't get the B-bat cause I'm older than she is. (laughter) But you could get what then was called a grocery mixed candy. It come in a big wooden bucket and it had sugar cream candy that was molded in little molds, small molds. It had sometimes you'd find raspberry, lemon, and vanilla. Sometime you'd get a real, real hard hard what people calls jaw breakers today. But it was still considered in the grocery mix. But that was just about our limit of, uh.... cause we could get more for a penny, or three or four pennies if we had that much. We could get a great big bag of candy with that. An, uh...if you found a penny you first took it home... to see if it could go with something that mom had to get maybe to get something to eat. But if you got to keep that penny believe you me you headed to the store right then and there cause you sure didn't want to wait and see if they needed that penny for anything else And you got you some grocery mixed candy. And peppermint sticks you could get those at that time. And you could get such nice large long big around, you know, my thumb which is a large thumb, uh...a stick of candy you'd get four and five of them for a penny. Now you can't even smell a stick of candy for a penny.

B: That's true. How about the movies? Did you ever get to go the movies when you were...

JG: No.

B: a girl?

JG: No. I never went to the movies until I was 16 years old. My first time seeing a movie.

B: You wouldn't remember what it was would you?

JG: No. Seemed to me like it was, uh...a Mounty like these mounty pictures back then, you know, played real fast. Walked real fast.

B: It wasn't a Nelson Eddie movie was it?

JG: I couldn't say.

B: I remember..

JG: But I remember latter years of him a playing something similar to what I seen as a child.

B: Okay.

JG: We didn't to go much anywhere other just to visit family you see. We just went to school went to, uh...Sunday school. Every Sunday that was one things we definitely went to Sunday school. And, uh...we had a beautiful old lady Mrs. Murphy that was our Sunday school teacher. and I dearly loved her. And I could always study my Sunday school lesson that when she ask questions invariably it seemed like I was the one that jumped up first to answer it now when I'd get ready to come out of church like I said a little short fat lady and she'd always hole me up in her arms and loved me. And it's even beautiful today to talk about her. And, uh...That would be my reward. Always had my Bible verses though...we was always taught when we were growing up to, uh...respect...go to...like I said we went to Sunday school on Sunday but we didn't go through the week or anything.

B: What church did you attend? What was your family...

JG: This was the Methodists church at that time. But my parents later, uh...belonged to the Baptist church. My husband and I are Church of Christ.

B: Okay. You say you went through the tenth grade, uh...did you quit to go to work or...what kind of work did you do when you left school?

JG: I was lucky enough to find a job in, uh...a grocery store.

B: Who's grocery store did you work in?

JG: Butch Dickens.

B: Where was this?

JG: Matewan.

B: Do you remember I'm gonna (tape cuts off)

JG: Uh...uh...furniture company they put in down there.

B: The new furniture company?

JG: The new one. Now it was about two, uh...lets see I think it's about three...three stores up. That Butch Dickens had his store.

B: It wasn't there was the later the Knotty Pine? Was it around where the Knotty Pine use to be?

JG: Hey below back toward, uh..let me see what is that guy that's got that restaurant.

B: Oh, the Chatterbox? Is it the...

JG: Isn't it awful that you don't know...live here all these years. Matewan used to be one of the biggest little towns one you couldn't find a town no where around that was as booming as Matewan. You could find people on the streets anytime you went to Matewan. Stores was...but this store that I'm talking about is right, uh...you know, where that lot is between the, uh...bank and the building that, uh...well, now, you know, where the building is, it's right straight across over in front of that. They's a restaurant there now. It used to be one of those, uh...Kiser boys had restaurant in there. It was along in there...Butch Dickens.

B: Okay. When you worked down in that grocery stores, could you tell me some of the stores that were in town at that time? Cause we're tying to piece together, you know, when what building was where and what was in it. Say in the...you...did you go to work in the '30's. Is that when...

JG: Let's see this was, uh...there was Nenni's where they are now where they're at. There use to be a Schaeffer Brother's. You know that?

B: yes mam.

JG: They used to be, uh...or seemingly to me...being here all this time that that many things was here...there was a laundry, I mean, uh... yea they had a laundry there. And there was Butch Dickensons store. There was Reams hardware, you know where that was at...and, uh...I think Reams took up a couple or more of those space if I'm not mistaken. There use to be a big restaurant right across the street there. And a barber shop. But they was in, uh...another furniture store. That I used to trade alot with them. But I can't put a name to it. A theater. You had the theater marked on there.

B: Yes ma'am.

JG: Oh, boy that's where mine and Joe's money went.

B: Oh, really?

JG: It was only entertainment we had honey. dating and after we got married. We's going to the I think we'd...we seen every movie that come to that theater. Joe and I went. And I even won a turkey.

B: Was that at the bank night?

JG: It was just before Thanksgiving. And I won my turkey and I brought it home. We didn't have at my family didn't have a place to put it but Joe's brother that lived up here in the bend of the road, you know, from where I live here, uh...he had a big chicken lot. And I took my turkey up and put it in his chicken lot. And we was going to...we had, uh...Thanksgiving...one Thursday and we was gonna wait about a week and then kill this turkey and my brother-in-law went out to shoot a buzzard that was flying around his chicken lot and my turkey just raised and flew out the chicken lot and I had no turkey...never could find my turkey.

B: Oh, no.

JG: Every time I'd look up there I'd think about my turkey a flying away.

B: You wouldn't around what year that was would you?

JG: Oh, let me see. Now that'd be around I guess in '35, '36 something like that.

B: How did you meet your husband? Do you remember?

JG: Yes, very well. We lived down here in the, uh...number six. What they call a number six camp at Red Jacket at that time. My father had...see we had migrated up to Red Jacket to work in the mines. And, uh...he had...I was a working...a person that couldn't be still I had to be working all the time. And, uh...I was out sweeping the yard...I couldn't stand rocks in the yard. And, uh... part of the yard would have grass and part of it wouldn't. And I always...if swept the porch always got out and sweep the yard our real nice and clean. And even in the front where the fence and the road way went up the...it was sitting next to the railroad see it wasn't like a state highway or just a little road that went up under each...to the houses the lower houses that we lived in. Joe had a cousin that lived four houses up from us. And I had ___?____ my way and I was out just a sweeping dirt going everywhere when he politely drive in front of me...little blue Ford Roadster, 28 model. Pretty little thing. And I though you smart eleck...and I just...He went on up and of course I went back in the house the next evening honey everytime I was sweeping he went by.

B: Did it blow dust back in the yard on you or...

JG: Naturally. And his cousin that lived above us I said I wish what's he coming down here for...who is that man. And she said why Jennie that's my cousin Joe. Said he's got his eye on you. I said well, he better get out of my way it's gonna be full of dust. I said every time he comes by I'm out there...believe you not I was barefooted. Barefooted sweeping all that coal dust. And he told his cousin he said I want to meet that girl down there said why don't you invite her up here, said every time I go by she's sweeping that ...dust all over the place. So she told him me I said I don't want to meet him. She said ah...Jennie he's a good boy. And see my parents was very strict they didn't believe in us dating. And even though I was 16 years old. And, uh...he kept coming by and she played a joke on me, she called me one day she come down she said won't you come up after while said and, uh...fix my hair for me. I could fix hair, cut hair, men's hair, women's hair, or whatever...roll hair. Was pretty good a little jobs like that. And, uh... she says will you come up this evening and said I'm gonna worsh my head she said after I get, uh...the kids all bathed and cleaned up and everything she said. Well, you come up and do my hair and I said yeah. I didn't...dawn on me you know that never thought about Joe maybe being up. And, uh...low and behold here I go up...little bit he drives up, and I told her well, I got to go. She said no I want you to meet my cousin, I said no I don't need to meet your cousins. Jennie please said meet him he's a good guy. He really is a good guy. Well, I said okay I said he come in and she introduced us and I said so. And I said I got to go she said why don't you hang around a little bit. I said no I've got too much work to do, I got to go. It sort of went on like that for about two or three weeks or so and that he happen to come back up there again and catch me up there. And when I started to go towards the door to go home, he said you ain't going home. And I looked at him and said just who's trying to tell me I can't go home. He said I want to talk to you dog gone it you've been coming up here and I've done everything I can do he said I want to talk to you, I said I don't have anything to say. Well, you're gonna listen to me. And from that of course my dad didn't know anything about this. And I let him...made a date with him that he could down to my house and I told my mother, she was a little more understanding. I told my mother and I said mother this is Joe that's been going up to Willis's, uh...her cousin. And I said she tells me he's a good boy. He plays baseball and works everyday at the mines. She said your daddy will kill you. Said, "You know your daddy will absolutely kill you. Well, I said he's gonna have to kill me. I said cause he's a coming down...and I said you better make him behave hisself. Dad was so strict. So daddy then Joe drives up mother told him said now Jennie's there's a boy going come and see Jennie, he said boy, says he's getting hisself away from here. Mother said now you behave yourself. Said this is a good boy...said you go behave yourself. Oh, boy hit was hard for him to do that. And Joe come in it was warm weather we sit on the front porch, cause I was gonna give him room to run if daddy got rough on him. Of course daddy comes out and mom says, uh...Jennie said introduce your daddy to Joe. And I was almost scared to death to. So I introduced him, Joe he shook hands with him. Daddy said (grunts) turned around and walked back in the house. So after Joe left he didn't stay long. You didn't date too long back then. You had a certain time to go to bed and everything had to be done and ready to go to bed at that time. So he said I'll be back down tomorrow evening and I said you better not I said I don't even know whether gonna be alive tomorrow evening or not you better wait. He said I'll be back down tomorrow evening. And he did come and dad said what's he gonna do take up homesteading. I said no he's not taking up homesteading. Well, he's got no business down here every evening of the week. Well, I said he works some days he won't get to come he said, but I said he wants to come when he can. No more than two times a week. But I got mom...love her heart she always went to dad. She helped me on the nights...evenings that he didn't have to work late. We dated but that was it...we dated for six years.

B: Six years? Why was your father so strict? How old did he think girls have to be before they could date?

JG: He thought girls all everyone had to be twenty-one years and over. And he didn't want me to leave because I was too hard a worker honey. And I kept things going too good for my time. I said just jim jobber was the only reason he wanted me home.

B: You were what?

JG: A jim jobber. Somebody that done everything that had to be done.

B: How old was your mother when she married?

JG: Sixteen.

B: So that's why your father thought you had to be twenty-one.

JG: Dad's, uh...six years older than mom. She was sixteen years old when they got married. Poor little thing was seventeen when I was born. Fifteen months and six days later my sister was born.

B: Did your father ever tell you why he thought girls had to be twenty-one?

JG: He...it's just his idea...he said...I just accused him...I said you just want to keep us home to work. Of course my sister she married good long time before I did. And, uh...she told dad if he let her and preacher get married...preacher he's, uh... Clarence is his name but everybody called him preacher. Preacher Collins. And, uh...she told him she said now you better make up your mind if you won't let us get married she said I'll slip off. And she talked straighter to dad than I did. I had a little bit of fear, you know, to a certain extent. But she would...she was the baby she could get by with more than I could you see...and uh...Joe and I started dating and like I said we dated six years.

B: How old was he when you all met?

JG: I was sixteen and he was six years older than me. That would make him twenty-two.

B: And you say he played baseball?

JG: Yeah.

B: Did he play for the company team?

JG: Yeah he had the Red Jackets...see he was Red Jacket's baseball player...they played at Red Jacket. Now when he went on base places and played baseball they wouldn't let me go with him.

B: What position did he play?

JG: Short stop I believe. He could run, oh...mercy me.

B: Was he fast?

JG: Yeah he's fast...real fast.

B: I noticed that your son was born in 1942. Did your husband not have to go to war because of his work in the mines?

JG: The coal company, see he had worked all his life at the coal company and Red Jacket at that time, uh...they had their dependable men that they could really bank on to stay on the job. And he had always been one of their...had worked all his life, his father you see and his, uh...he had three brothers. And a brother-in-law that were all strictly workers and they kept him. His father died though. Joe went to work like I said when he was thirteen years old. And, uh...his father had died several years before he and I met...but he had a lovely mother. She was a beautiful lady.

B: Did he and his brothers support her?

JG: No, they all, uh...everyone pitched in and helped. She never wanted for nothing.

B: You say he went to work when he was thirteen years old. So, do you know how long he went to school? Did he go straight from to school to work?

JG: No.

B: Or did he quit?

JG: He didn't get much schooling.

B: Were they form...they were from this area then...

JG: What ya call Meador.

B: Meador. Okay.

JG: Like I said Stella Presley taught him. And she said Jennie I wasn't nothing but a youngun teaching a youngun.

B: This...so your sister married a minister?

JG: No, she married, uh...Clarence Collins and they called him preacher. He used to mock a preacher. He used to, uh...an old preacher named Uncle John L. Justice. That's everybody referred to him as Uncle John. And Uncle John would preach anywhere he could find somebody that will listen to him. Four or five people to standing on a stump or a rock or whatever he would preach to him. And, uh...my sisters husband and preacher he mocked him. He'd get on a chair or a stool fence post or just preach as hard as he could preach and they called him preacher. And to call his name nobody don't know where he is. But if you say preacher Collins why they know who your talking about.

B: Did your husband ever tell you the...or did he ever know of any of the bootlegging and stuff that went on in this area? Or about making moonshine?

JG: Yeah. You'd be surprised some of the very finest people that bootlegging at times.

B: Did he ever tell you any of their names? Were they people that owned business in town or?

JG: They...make, you know, they make home brewing and they'd have their steels out in the mountains of course, you know, to make. They use to be an old guy in Matewan, uh...he's an Italian. I can't think of his name right off hand. He had a little store. You know where the underpass is? Back up this was where...about where that market is in there. He made wine all the time.

B: Is his name Rock.

JG: Rock uh-huh. That's him.

B: Can you remember his last name? Nobody...none of the younger people that we've talked to say in their forties or so can remember his last name?

JG: They called Rock that I don't think that anybody ever really did know his last name. And I've known it but like right now I can't put a last name to...other than Rock

B: Okay.

JG: But he could make some mighty good wine. Oh, it was delicious. It was really good...old Country.

B: How about now less of the woman have known about this than men. How about any prostitutes in town? Did the woman ever gossip about any of the prostitutes that were supposedly been in Matewan? Did you ever hear about them?

JG: Yeah.

B: Really?

JG: Oh, Rock kept a house ill fame honey.

B: We've had a hard time putting our finger on how many there were at one time. Houses of ill repute. Can you think of about how many there were?

JG: I was trying to think of this other place. It was right in town. Now there was a place across the river called Blue Goose. Now you could buy your drinks and everything there. And your woman. But right off hand I can't remember who did that....

JG: Married woman could go over to the Blue Goose and meet other married men see.

B: Oh, it was a rendezvous spot?

JG: That it was...rendezvous for sure. It could really be done. And a lot of people in Matewan knows that. The elder ones do, and a lot of them went over there. Of course I can't name names. (laughing)

B: About...was this when you were by the time you were working or was this when you were younger?

JG: Well, as far back...after we come to Matewan. It was going on even when we come to Matewan. And, uh...it went on for years. I guess they's less now. If they is any now I think it just went down so much it's all out.

B: Did you ever hear people talk about Aunt Carey?

JG: Who?

B: Aunt Carey?

JG: There she is. That's who I was trying to think of. You better believe her honey. She was the little miss king pin of them all. And I mean anybody could go there regardless of who they was and you'd never know that she knowed you'd ask...why who are you talking about.

B: Oh...

JG: She kept it still. And I mean it was people that was well known, really.

B: Really.

JG: It didn't make any difference when you went there and left she never knowed you.

B: Talk...like county politicians and people like that?

JG: Um-hum. They sure did. All the town police at the time in Matewan.

B: Um...

JG: Um...um-hum.

B: Do you know...we've heard now we can't get people held down long enough to get straight answers from a lot of people did you ever hear about her having girls at her place?

JG: Oh, yes. I've heard that, uh...yes I've heard that. I've had people that went there that told me they were girls.

B: Now she was...

JG: She supplied anything you wanted.

B: Oh, okay. Now she was black.

JG: Black.

B: Do you know did she have white girls or black girls?

JG: It didn't make any difference. Mostly white.

B: Her place was down closer to the river.

JG: That's right.

B: How about if I name some names and then if you remember anything that we're hearing about them we're trying to, uh...gather some information on Greenway Hatfield, did you ever hear people talk about Greenway Hatfield?

JG: Yes I did. I knew Greenway Hatfield...he's a politician. He was kin to my mother. He was a Devil Anse Hatfield man. He run Mingo County like Johnny Owens...is who now is in the penitentiary.

B: We've heard things that he would work people on his farm that were doing time in jail.

JG: Yeah. I've heard my husband talk about that. Remember taking the people in the jail taking them to his farm. Down here at Hatfield Bottom. That use to be one of the biggest farms down here. But my husband said he's seen them working his. Bring them out of the jail and work them all day. Feed them of course and take them there.

B: Did...what kind of a man was he? I mean how did he act when you saw him? You said you knew him, how did he act? What kind of active kind of man was he?

JG: Honey you'd never know he had done these things. He was obliging. He could...he would help you do anything if you needed help in any way and Greenway would help you...he was really good. But to him he never done no sin...you see.

B: What other kind of things did he do? (tape cuts off)

B: Well, we were talking about Greenway Hatfield and you mentioned just now off tape that...that he, uh...was involved with some moonshining, would you tell me about that?

JG: That I have heard through, uh...other people talking of course I knew him I had seen him. But as far as having first one on one contact with him. Now my husband knew him real well, cause he used to come to their home. And, uh...they always helped get him in when he run for election, you know, and all that stuff why they always helped him. And, uh...but he had some fingers in the wrong fires. I'm positive of that down through the years of hearing things going on. But now he did work the people that was in jail he would bring them to his farm and he worked them for no pay...free labor.

B: How about Ernest Hatfield? He seems like he was another character that was a police chief.

JG: Yes, Ernest was wild. He was wild, wild. If Ernest liked you he liked you. But at the same time if you would cross him or, you know, anyway you had an arch enemy. High tempered...he was really high tempered...and, uh...I think really and truly that was part of his problem that...that cost him his life, you know, a whole lot. (has Ernest mixed up with Ernest Ward)

B: How did he die?

JG: He was shot and killed on the streets there at Matewan. (Ernest Ward was killed at David Starr's trailer at Hatfield Bottom supposedly by a gambler in a card game) I can't remember just who did that off hand I can't remember. But he was shot and killed in Matewan.

B: Was he still a police chief at that time?

JG: Yeah police chief uh-huh. There's rumor around that he was abusive; you know, when he'd go to arrest one he'd abused them, didn't treat them right. And more or less I think people some of them got a little mad about it. I know there was quit of squabbles as we called them, where they would go in on him and families would but he'd always wind up throwing him out of his office. You know, tell them he was running the town and he'd do as he pleased.

B: How about Billy Adair...or Adair? I've heard people mention him. Did you ever...

JG: Blind Billy. That's what he was referred to. Blind Billy. He was mixed up in the courthouse factions, you know, at that time. We've had these factions and factions, and factions all down through the years. Blind Billy was one of the big people. He ruled ...what he said they did.

B: I heard that he...he ran, uh...a thing where the teachers had to pay kick backs to him.

JG: They did...he did. He's the one that set all of that up. And he got quit a bit of money off of the teachers. If you wanted a job just about any kind of a job that was in Mingo County that was on the political side and schools more or less been politics for years and years, and years it's been politics. That's, uh...and, uh...it's who you are that you get the bigger jobs and better jobs you see. But you've got to do some kicking back. Favors and so on and things like that. And Blind Billy you paid so much, each teacher had to pay him so much to get a school.

B: How about Noah Floyd?

JG: Poor old Noah. If you had him a s a friend you had one of the best friend, if you had him as an enemy you had an arch enemy.

B: Really?

JG: So he was another that had his fingers in political running. He ran it honey. Like Johnnie Owens is now in the pen for running Mingo County. Mingo County has more or less always as far back as I can remember, you know, politically paying attention has been politically runned by one domineering person.

B: Were they democrats or republicans?

JG: Both.

B: Really.

JG: The both.

B: Can you think of any republicans that ran things like that? I know Noah and them they were democrats right?

JG: Yeah Noah was. That Chambers down here in Matewan. They... see Howard, Howard was the sheriff for a while. He either died and then his wife took his job. Virginia. She and I went to school together.

B: Okay. There was a story around town that there for a while that the Chambers woman ran the bank. Do you remember was that when you were here? Was that in the '30's or '40's?

JG: Yeah...yes.

B: Was that her?

JG: Yeah um-hum. Now it wasn't Virginia it was, uh...Virginia was, uh...she was a Compton before she but...

B: Was it Dora...

JG: What?

B: Was it Dora or...

JG: Dora...you said it...Aunt Dorey they called her. She run Matewan the bank and anything else. That Chamber's more or less have as far as I can remember it went...have been head honcho's as refer to them. In Matewan and in the run of the bank. Dan Chambers, you know, has ran it for so many, many years.

B: What kind of person was he?

JG: One of the most accommodating people you ever had any dealings with. Now he was strictly business. But he was accommodating. He was a good guy. Well respected. But he had his, uh...like I said he ran things.

B: How about that, uh...I've been reading a book about Mingo politics in the '60's, did you ever hear them talk about the tunnel? There was a tunnel where people got killed and dumped off in, did you ever hear about that at the time? I think it was going towards Dingess, the Dingess tunnel maybe.

JG: Oh, yeah I know what your talking about now. You just have... now that I heard. Like I said it's more or less above hearing but as a group...it's all political stuff. And they dumped them out in that tunnel.(Tape cuts off)

B: You were saying politics?

JG: Politics in Mingo County have always been one of the dirtiest, ...always has. When you think that you are really voting for some-one that you can really trust that they won't go bad they've never been bad you see, and you think now that man is a good one he won't ...he won't, but he would.

B: How about this Johnny Owens? What kind of fellow was he?

JG: Johnny Owens was of the accommodating. Kind person he would do anything in this world that he possibly could do. But he let corruption over come him. He absolutely became one of the biggest king pens in Mingo County. But you could go to him and need something done, need help Johnny would do it. But it...it's sad that he let this corruption over come him. Now it was really corruption that's all you can call it. And he sold his job to this Eddie Hilbert, and there was those three com-missioners all had a part in it...they had agreed to it...and they did.

B: I have some questions before I forget about when...when you were married and you had your children, did you have them at home or were people going to the hospital by then?

JG: I was under the doctors care in Williamson...and both of my children was borned in a Williamson Memorial Hospital. But then you had better caring you see then. And my husband was working for Red Jacket Coal Company and we paid hospitalization over the pay roll.

B: Okay. How old were you before your mother explained to you about having babies? Do you say they tell girls much earlier in life now. Do you remember when your mother told you...

JG: My mother didn't.

B: She didn't? How did you find out?

JG: I wasn't even told that girls would have their monthly. My mother didn't tell me anything. I knew that when I had my monthly period I didn't know what was happening to me. I just knew I kept it hid. I knew I hadn't done anything to cause it. And then the next month I did the same thing again. I knew they had to be something that was suppose to be natural for people to do that. I didn't know anything.

B: Did you ever ask her?

JG: No. I ask a girlfriend of mine.

B: Oh.

JG: And she said...you mean to tell me you didn't know nothing. I said no. And she told me that it would be natural.

B: About how...

JG: And then my mother found my clothes, naturally she wanted to know how long it had been going on. And she ask me why didn't you tell me I said I was scared I didn't know what to do. It was after that then she talked to me.

B: How old were you?

JG: I was thirteen years old. (Pause) I was always old for my age. I had a lot of responsibilities that a girl or boy would have. And, uh... seemed to like I matured faster much...grew old. I've read. I was a avid reader and I think my reading helped me to me mature faster. My sister love her heart I didn't ever think she was gonna grow up. Because when she...see I even kept this hid from her. And then when she started, oh...she said Jennie I'm dying. She come to me she said "Oh God Jennie I'm dying...what's wrong with me Jennie what's wrong with me." And I said what are you talking about she said, oh...I'm dying. Well, she started...I said, oh...you ain't gonna die. I said they ain't nothing wrong with you this is nothing but natural. Do you do it..I said yes I do it. You know, it is funny when you stop to think about it how growing up then innocent. Now I was very innocent and, uh...girls didn't talk things like they talk today. Well, my Connie used to come home from school and tell me things kids would say to her and I'd say Connie do you know I never heard nothing like that when I was a girl. Mother... .she said you must have been dumb. I said no I wasn't dumb just things you didn't talk about.

B: What you do think...why was it different do you think when you were growing up say then by the time your daughter was a teenager? What do you think had changed?

JG: Well, life was different then than it is today. It wasn't as fast. You didn't learn nothing like that in school you see. That was definitely a no...no. You didn't talk nothing...not even in the restroom or anything. In fact they always had a teacher on patrol in the bathroom through recesses and things like that. And more than could go to the bathroom at a time and, uh...of course I didn't hear anything at home. I learned to keep my ears open for one thing...I learned a lot by listening. Sometimes women would get together and they'd think that I was maybe dumb in a one way and I'd listen, well, wonder what they're talking about...how could that happen. And after while I could learn enough til I knew what had taken place. Well, I learned silently I guess a whole lot. Like I said I'm a avid I started reading young. Read everything I could get my hands on.

B: Where did you get your books? Or what did you read?

JG: Honey just any kind of a library book or a book from school or anything like that. Anytime anybody had a book in their home that they could let me read. I read love stories, true stories and all of those books and back then they used to be clean, you know, they're not like they are today. In fact years ago they used to be clean love stories. And, uh...I'm still an avid reader. I do a lot of biblical research now.

B: Okay. Well, lets see. I know...we've seen a picture where there was a Western Union office in Matewan, do you remember was there a Western Union office in Matewan?

JG: Yes there was.

B: Do you know who ran that? Do you remember any people that worked there?

JG: Uh...here I go again can't remember names that good. I can see that right in front of me. And I can not think of the man's name but if they was...

B: Was it down in the lower end of town?

JG: Yes down in the lower end of Matewan there. Down from somewhere along about where that flower shop, you know, down where that dollar store is, in there.

B: How about the flood? What do you remember about the '77 flood? Did it...did it get up here?

JG: Honey it was devastating. Really and I mean devastating to see Matewan under water like it was. I cried, and I cried, and I cried. All the stores specifically where the underpass, you know, and all of that. It was up to the top of the underpass you see. Went right straight on down. At the lower end, you know, it didn't get like it did there. Where, uh...like going into town in those places there. And it really was...

B: Down on that lower end of town where the bridge is, uh...did they put...what kind of bridge was there up until the '30's? I think the '30's was when the new bridge. There was a bridge put in there. We've heard stories that there was a swinging bridge, was that a swinging bridge?

JG: Yes. Only a walk. You'd start walking and they'd had, uh...wires and you'd have to hold it. And it would swing and wobble with you, you know, when you...you really got sea sick.

B; How did cars then go from Matewan to Kentucky? Did they have to drive the long...a long way? Was there a long way around?

JG: They, uh...that cross there from Matewan at that time, uh... was all mountain that you...they's some houses, you know, more just mountains and things like that. And that road didn't, uh...like I said it's just like more of a county road like we folks here call. When you live in a place that's not a lot of traffic just people a living on it they have a little road to get out to get to, the main another big road to get them to another one now that's just about what it was. And it all went in the opposite direction you see. Instead of coming into Matewan. Now you could get from that over and in the, uh...down and to go into Williamson, West Virginia, West Virginia side.

B: What do you remember abut the trains going in and out of town? That seems like that had a lot to do with..

JG: Honey there was more trains then than they are now. Constantly seeing, uh...big smelly engines taking, uh...long trains of, uh ...coal. See you always see coal. Then you had passenger trains that ran but, uh...you'd have 15, and 16. 15 would run up in the day going south. No, 15 would go north, and 16 would...see this way, south. Uh...B & W. Then you had a little train called 28 that came out of Kenova I believe to Williamson. Then onto Bluefield. And then there was another one called 27. That came to Bluefield to Williamson and on to Kenova.

B: Well...(tape cuts off) Well, unless there's anything that we haven't talked about already in the last couple of days I think I'll go ahead and end the interview, and I want to thank you for having me.

JG: I appreciate you very much I really enjoyed this. I was a little skeptical at first, but you've been such a pleasant person yourself.

B: Well, thank you.

JG: You've been easy to work with and I've enjoyed you. Glad I could give you any information that will be of any help.

B: Oh, that's great thank you. I, uh...post script number one I'm gonna ask Mrs. Grimmett about her relation with her husband...you say your husband would actually help you with your house work?

JG: My husband was very good in helping me around my house doing anything he would even help me take care of the babies. Even down the diapering them. When they need to be diapered.

B: He seemed...

JG: He would help me cook, he would wash the dishes, he would mop the floor, he would wash the walls, anything I was doing he would be working along with me when he wasn't working in the mines.

B: Did you ever think of a reason why he was like that, that was kind of model for a husband back in the '40's, and '50's?

JG: Well, he was just...came form a good country family that all worked incorporated with each other. And it was just his nature to be that type of a person. He all the years that we was married 47 years before he passed away he was always there for me, helped with the children. When I was sick he would wait on me hand and foot. He'd do the washing, he'd help iron, he would cook and mop any of those things that he could help me around the house. And was a great love he always was. Kind and gentle.

B: Oh, that's wonderful.

JG: It's been having to give him up is the hardest thing. And I do miss him...I still miss him and I always will miss him. And I think of him quite often. But he's with me...he's still with me. I'm not afraid cause I know he's with me.

B: That's wonderful thank you.

Matewan Oral History Project Collection