J. F. Stewart testimony
(transcriber may have made spelling and punctuation changes)
J. F. Stewart, a witness of lawful age, being first daily sworn, deposes and says: Questions by Mr. Ossington
Q: Have you been sworn as a witness?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Tell the Court and the jury your name?
A: J. F. Stewart
Q: I don't hear you. Speak a little louder?
A: J. F. Stewart.
Q: How old are you, Mr. Stewart?
A: 45.
Q: Where do you reside?
A: At Dry Branch on Cabin Creek.
Q: What County?
A: Kanawha County, West Virginia.
Q: What is your business?
A: Miner.
Q: How long have you been following mining?
A: Fifteen years.
Q: Where were you living in the latter part of August and September of last year?
A: Living on Cabin Creek on the Wet Branch Mining Company's property.
Q: Were you or not a member of a labor organization at that time, known as the United Mine Workers of America?
A: Yes sir.
Q: To what Local did you belong?
A: 1818.
Q: At what point?
A: Post office, Dry Branch.
Q: Are you a member of the United Mine Workers at this time?
A: Yes sir.
Q: What Local do you belong to now?
A: Belong to 1818.
Q: Do you know where the town of Marmet is situate[ed]?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Do you know where the place is?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How far is it from where you were living in August, from Marmet about how far?
A: It is called 8 miles.
Q: In traveling from your home to Marmet, how would you travel?
A: Go down the creek on the train, take a street car or railroad, or go by automobile, when the waters are low and the roads are good, or you could walk.
Q: Do you recall early in the month of August of last year an assembly of persons at Marmet, do you recall that occasion?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Were you at Marmet at any time after the men began to assemble there?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How many times were you at Marmet during the time they were there?
A: Three times, I think, sir. I am not sure of that.
Q: When you went to Marmet the first time, where did you go to with reference to Marmet?
A: Close to Marmet, possibly a mile up the Creek at Lens Creek.
Q: At Lens Creek?
A: Yes sir.
Q: What river, if any, does Lens Creek empty into?
A: Kanawha.
Q: The Kanawha River?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where was this assemblage of people, or how far from Marmet that you spoke of?
Objection
Question is withdrawn
Q. Where were the men with reference to Marmet that you saw on Lens Creek?
A: Do you mean how far up the Creek?
Q: Yes sir.
Objection, because the indictment specifically alleges that the assembly was at Marmet. We object to any testimony showing the assembly was at any other point other than the place named in the indictment.
THE COURT: I have got to hear what his answer is.
A: On Lens Creek, the first assembly - the first time I was down there, they was about two miles up the Creek, I judge, from Marmet.
Motion is made by counsel for the defendant at this point to strike out the foregoing answer, because, not only the indictment but the Bill of Particulars specifically alleges that it was at Marmet.
THE COURT: Go ahead with it, and let me see just what the relation of this place to Marmet is.
Q: About how many men, did you see in this neighborhood, give the jury your best judgment, on that occasion?
A: The first time I was there, why, it looked to be about 250, possibly, I don't know.
Q: That was your first visit?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Tell the jury whether or not any of them were armed at that time?
A: No sir. If they was, I didn't see any arms.
Q: In going to the point up Lens Creek, near Marmet, as you ____did you pass any men _____ going toward where then men were _____ any men?
A: No sir.
Q: How did you travel to Lens Creek on that occasion?
A: On a car.
Q: Anyone go with you?
A: Yes sir, I had the car full - supply passenger car, five of us.
Q: Were there any other persons going up Lens Creek at that time, besides yourself, either on foot or in a car?
The same objection.
THE COURT: I will have to let them go ahead so that I can understand just what the local geography is and thereby, I can determine the question.
A: I will have to answer that - Can I answer that the way I want to?
THE COURT: Yes.
A: Naturally you would pass people that would be traveling at all times. I don't know whether they were going there. Possibly they was.
Q: How long did you remain at this point on that occasion?
A: I was there about two hours.
Q: Where did you go to from there?
A: Went back home.
Q: When were you next back to Marmet - about how long?
A: I think possibly the next day. I am not sure.
Q: In going from your place to the point where you have indicated, where does the road run with references to the town of Marmet, that you travel?
A: It is in the corporation. Lens Creek road comes into the corporation. I don't know exactly where. However, you go into the corporation before you go up Lens Creek. It is possibly a quarter of a mile from Lens Creek to the corporation, coming back east.
Q: When you were back to Marmet on the second occasion, did you see any persons?
A: Yes sir, the crowd had increased.
Q: About how many people would you say was there on that occasion?
A: I judge there would be between 250 - 500.
Q: On that occasion, tell the jury whether any of the persons were armed?
A: Yes sir, they were armed.
Q: Tell the jury, if you can, what kind of arms they had?
A: They had guns.
Q: What kind of guns?
A: Looked to be rifles, some had pistols. That is about all the kind they had.
Q: About how many would you say what proportion were armed?
A: I judge half of them. Possibly more. I don't know. I cannot make any positive statement on that.
Q: I am not asking you to. I am asking your best judgment. Then when was the next occasion you were there?
A: I think it was the 24th, the day Mother Jones spoke.
Q: Who is Mother Jones?
A: She is called the Mother of the United Mine Workers of America.
Q: What age lady is she, can you give the jury some idea?
A: She said that day she was past 90.
Q: On that occasion, tell the jury, how many people were there on that occasion?
A: I judge between 2500 - 3,000 people there, men, women and children.
Q: That was on the day Mother Jones was there?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Do you recall what day of the month that was?
A: I think it was the 24th of August.
Q: What year?
A: 1921.
Q: Tell the jury what occurred there, in you own way, at that time? Turn around, so they can hear you. (meaning the jury)
A: Mother Jones made a speech there to the assembly, asking the men to go back home. Said they were in violation of the law, and she called for a vote on it, and she said it carried unanimously. She was their mother, she loved them, and she asked them to go back home. That is the substance of her speech.
Q: What occurred then, if anything?
A: I don't know whether - I am testifying against Mr. Blizzard now, ain't I?
Q: Do you know William Blizzard, the defendant on trial?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How long had you known him prior to that time?
A: I met him, I think, on the 7th of August, 1919, at an assembly, where Mother Jones spoke at Es[k]dale, I think it was the 7th.
Q: Do you know Frank Keeney?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How long had you known him prior to that time?
A: Well, I have known Mr. Keeney almost five years.
Q: Were you acquainted with Fred Mooney at that time?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Tell the jury whether either one of those parties as you named were present at the time you were there at this meeting.
A: They were all three there.
Q: Now, tell the jury what took place, in your own way. What you heard, and what you saw. Go ahead.
A: Now, I never saw Mr. Blizzard do anything or say anything.
Q: I want to ask you what you saw and heard there, if anything, after Mother Jones said it was unanimous - tell what occurred.
A: Mr. Keeney said the telegram was a fake.
Q: What telegram?
A: That Mother Jones was supposed to get from President Harding.
Objection
THE COURT: Where was Mr. Blizzard when you heard Mr. Keeney say the telegram was a fake?
A: Mr. Blizzard and Mr. Keeney - they were all three together. Blizzard didn't say anything. I didn't see anything Mr. Blizzard did wrong at all.
THE COURT: But he was there with Mr. Keeney and Mr. Mooney and the others at that time?
A: Yes sir.
THE COURT: Of course, the defendant here wouldn't be bound by anything that any or the other members of that assembly did or said, unless it can be shown he was leagued in the conspiracy with them. That is a matter that must be proven by circumstances I think it would be impractical, generally, for the Court to require the prosecution to make out a prima facia case of conspiracy before it could introduce any other evidence. But if the case of conspiracy is not made out, then it would be necessary to exclude all the evidence in regard to the defendant. They would have to have their opportunity to make it out piece by piece.
The other questions hasn't been dispensed of yet. I want to learn what that situation of the town of Marmet is to the place where the people were. How far away it was. All of these matters, so I may have a full knowledge of that situation before passing on it.
QUESTIONS RESUMED BY MR. OSSINGTON
Q: What telegram - what are you speaking about? Tell the jury what telegram you referred to.
A: Mother Jones was supposed---
Q: Don't tell what you supposed - tell what she did?
A: She read a telegram from the President of the United States.
Q: (Mr. Houston) How do you know that telegram was from the President of the United States?
A: Because Mother Jones said it was.
Objection
THE COURT: I don't think the point is to prove that the telegram was from the President of the United States. The jury would understand that this wouldn't be evidence to show that MOTHER Jones actually had a telegram from the President. It really isn't a relevant inquiry whether she had a telegram from President Harding or not. I don't think that would affect the questions before the jury in any way.
Q: Go ahead now, tell what occurred there.
A: Well, Mr. Keeney ordered - after the men began to disperse, and go to their homes, Mr. Keeney ordered them to stop.
Q: Tell what he said.
A: He said: "Stop them. This message is a fake. I will go to Charleston and fin out and report back here at 6 o'clock, whether this is a real message or not."
Q: Then what happened?
A: He said also that he was President of District 17, and if there was any message sent from the President of the United States, it should have been sent to him instead of to Mother Jones.
Q: Then what happened?
A: He said if they didn't want him to be President of District 17, he would resign. Some man there, had on yellow pants, with a bayonet in his hand, called the attention of the crowd, and asked them if they wanted President Keeney to be their President, if so, to say so by saying "Aye". There as a great deal of noise, and he said it carried. At this point, I asked Mr. Keeney and Mr. Mooney to get in my car and send them out to the mouth of the Creek, and they did.
Q: When he told them to stop, what effort, if any, was made to keep them there?
A: There was guard lines - men throwed across the road with guns, to prevent people from going out.
Q: How long was that guard line after Mr. Keeney made that declaration - that guard line thrown across the road?
A: Two and one half minutes, I judge. Just immediately.
Q: About how many men would you say were thrown across the road as a guard line?
A: They were scattered all along the road. You couldn't drive ten feet or walk ten feet without being stopped.
Q: When you invited Keeney and Mooney to get in your car, what did they do?
A: They got in my car, they went down with my wife and step son, and step daughter in law and two little boys.
Q: In going out in your car, did they have to pass this guard line that had been thrown across the road?
A: Yes sir.
Q: When they left, where was the defendant, Blizzard?
A: Well, I don't remember seeing him anymore. He didn't go out with them, I know. I never spoke to him that day at all. Only saw him once, that was with those other men. After they left, I didn't see him.
Q: At the time, Mr. Keeney told the crowd that this telegram was a fake, did he make any other statement in connection with the men going on or not going on?
A: He said: "By God, we have got it winned, if we stop, we lose."
Q: Do you know what he referred to?
A: No sir.
Q: Where was Blizzard at the time that statement was made?
A: He was close to him, all three standing together.
Q: Was Mr. Mooney near enough to have heard the statement you told the jury Mr. Keeney made?
A: Yes sir, couldn't possibly help hearing it.
Q: Do you know what connection at that time Frank Keeney had with the United Mine Workers of America?
A: He was President of District 17.
Q: Do you know what position if any Freed Mooney had with the United Mine Workers of America?
A: Secretary-Treasurer.
Q: Do you know at that time what position, if any, Bill Blizzard held with the United Mine Workers of America?
A: President Sub District 2, District 17.
Q: Where were the headquarters of the United Mine Workers of America of District 17, at that time?
A: Summer[s] Street, in Charleston.
Q: What county and state?
A: Kanawha county, West Virginia.
Q: Where was the headquarters of Sub District Number 2, you referred to?
A: I think that is at St. Albans.
Q: What county?
A: Kanawha county, West Virginia.
Q: How long did you remain there after they left?
A: About four hours, I judge. Took a long time to get out and get back.
Q: What did these men do after Keeney and Mooney left there - what did they do?
A: Nothing only stayed there with their guns, that is all. Holding their guard line - keeping people in there.
Q: Where did you go when you left?
A: I went back home.
Q: How did you get through the guard line that had been thrown out?
A: After they went out, they allowed them to go home at certain times. People with cars, passengers, travelers, sightseers, and visitors were allowed to go through.
Q: When you left, where were the men?
A: They were in the road, guarding the road.
Q: Prior to the day you were down there and heard Mother Jones speech, I will ask you to tell the jury whether or not you knew of any money being appropriated by your Local union for this march or otherwise.
A: No sir.
Q: Was any money appropriated by your Local Union prior to that time?
Objection
Over ruled
Exception
A: They had a meeting in our local, and the men voted to allow the Treasurer to spend $600. The Treasurer got up and he said - R. T. Eskins was the Treasurer: "I am going to spend this money, but you will have to guess what I am going to do with it."
Q: About how long was that before the men began to assemble at Marmet, give your best judgment?
A: I guess, between 10 days and two weeks. I don't know just how long.
Q: Was that money spent?
A: I suppose it was. They haven' got any in the treasury.
MOTION to exclude the answer on the ground of supposition.
Sustained
(Witness:) I don't know what it was spent for.
Q: What officers have you in that Local? Tell the jury the officers.
A: John Brown, President, R. T. Eskins, Treasurer, J. B. Allen, Financial Secy., J. B. Allen, Recording Secy.
Q: What is the financial secretary?
A: He collects the funds through the office and turns it over to the treasurer.
Q: When the funds are disposed of, who disposes of the funds, what officer?
A: The treasurer. The Constitution -
Q: Don't tell -
A: I will have to tell it to get it right. The Constitution of District 17 provides for the President, Treasurer and Recording Secretary to sign those checks, and they wasn't signed by those three men, none of those checks. R. T. Eskins signed them himself.
THE COURT: Signed by whom?
A. R. T. Eskins, Treasurer.
Objection
Sustained
Q: Do you know whether or not this money, this $600, was turned over to anyone that you appropriated?
A: No, I do not.
Q: You spoke of some checks being signed by the Financial Secretary, when was that done with reference to the meeting?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: The Treasurer, I mean?
A: I received one from him when I was a witness in the House case, just signed by him after that - three months afterwards.
Q: About how many members of the Local Union at that point were present on the night this appropriation was made?
A: Fifty.
Q: Do you know how many members that Local had at that time, about the number?
A: The last capitation tax --
Q: I mean at that time?
A: I will have to tell you this: I don't know at that time whether any had moved away or not. I was Financial Secretary - I think the last capitation tax that was paid was paid on 203 members. I am not sure of that.
Q: In what District was that Local that you belonged to that you referred to?
A: District 17, Sub Division Number 2, United Mine Workers of America.
Q: At the time you made this appropriation that you testified to, do you know where the Local kept their funds, what point?
A: Kanawha National Bank, Charleston.
Q: On the day that Mother Jones spoke down there, that you testified about, about what proportion of the men that were assembled at that time that were armed, give your best judgment?
A: A majority of them were armed.
Q: With what kind of arms?
A: Rifles and pistols.
Q: Did you see any bayonets, except the one you referred to?
A: No sir, that is the only one I noticed. I don't know who the man was that had it.
Q: Did you see any other members of your Local Union that you were acquainted with at Marmet on the 24th when Mother Jones spoke?
A: I don't remember, I think Mr. Chapman - Pete Chapman was with us. I think he was with us. In fact, everybody was there, nearly, when Mother Jones spoke, because everybody wanted to hear her, the citizens and everybody love Mother Jones. They wanted to hear her. That is all there is to it. I didn't pay any attention to who was there.
Q: Can you give the jury any idea how many of them were Union men belonging to the United Mine Workers there on that occasion?
A: No, I couldn't do that. I don't know how many of them belonged. There is no use to try to answer that, they may have been all.
QUESTIONS BY THE COURT:
Q: How large a place is the town of Marmet?
A: It is a small place - possibly a thousand inhabitants.
Q: Is it an incorporated town?
A: Yes sir, incorporated in May, 1921 - one of the councilmen told me. He worked at Wet Branch mine I work at. Incorporated in 1921.
Q: Do you know where the corporation lines are?
A: Yes, the one going west toward Charleston, is about half a mile before you get into the town, and the other one coming back east is about half a mile. The corporation takes in a great deal of territory, but it is uninhabited. No inhabitants.
Q: On which side of the town were those people?
A: East side, up Lens Creek. I don't know as I am familiar whether it is south - they were on the east side. Lens Creek, is about, from the post office at Marmet, possibly a quarter of a mile.
Q: How far from the corporation limits?
A: Inside of the corporation - runs through the corporation.
Q: How were these men living out there - in tents?
A: They didn't have any tents, no sir.
Q: Did they have a camp?
A: I don't know whether you would call it a camp or not. They were there. There was a big mining company up that creek where Mother Jones spoke that day. Hernshaw is the post office.
Q: Where did they spend the night?
A: I don't know sir, I went home. Possibly, spent it there. I couldn't answer that, because I don't know.
Q: How far was the place where they were staying - where they were assembled, from the corporation limits of this town of Marmet?
A: I don't know the corporation - I don't know how far up it extends in that direction. East and west, I know where the corporation lines are - going north and south, I don't know.
Q: Was it within sight of the buildings in side of the town of Marmet?
A: It was in sight of Hernshaw.
Q: How far were they from Marmet?
A: The first time?
Q: From where these men were congregated together?
A: That was possibly five miles up the Creek where Mother Jones spoke. They guarded the railroad crossing, some of them did at times - guarded the county road. One road going to Charleston, runs in this direction (indicating) east, another one turns up Lens Creek, they had guards there. Little ways from that - C and O railroad - they had guards there. They had guards in the town of Marmet, too, right in the corporation.
Q: How long were they in this place - in this vicinity?
A: I don't know sir. Possibly, 5 - 6 or 7 days.
Q: Where did they cook?
A: They cooked - I never saw them cooking any.
Q: Did you see any camp fires?
A: They had camp fires.
Q: Where were these fires - how far from Marmet?
A: The first one was about mile and a half or two miles - the next was possibly - they were scattered from the C and O railroad, five miles up that creek, and they had fires all along.
Q: How close did these camp fires come to the town of Marmet?
A: One was right in the corporation, at the mouth of the creek.
Q: How did the men - do you know what disposition they made of themselves generally during the day? Would they assemble together in one crowd or scatter?
A: They would scatter.
Q: And from five miles up the Creek the crowd reached down toward the town of Marmet. How close did they get to it?
A: The C and O railroad goes right through the town, and the county road crosses it right in the town. Some were located there.
THE COURT: I don't think that is a material variance gentlemen. The indictment doesn't allege that they were in the town, but at it. I think that word would imply they were in the vacinity [sic] of it.
QUESTIONS BY MR. OSSINGTON
Q: Speaking of the guards that you say at the railroad crossing, about how many men did they have on guard at that point on that occasion?
A: The night they stopped us going from Charleston home, there was five.
Q: What kind of arms did these guards have?
A: They had guns - rifles and pistols.
Q: You say that crossing is in the town of Marmet?
A: Yes sir, in the corporation.
Q: Did you know any of these five guards - the names of them?
A: No sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION, questions by Mr. Houston
Q: You say you are still a member of the United Mine Workers of America?
A: Yes sir.
Q: And you are still living at the town of Dry Branch?
A: Yes sir, when I am at home. I am here now. I certainly live there.
Q: Are you married?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How much of a family have you?
A: I have a wife, two daughters and a step son.
Q: Your home is at the town of Dry Branch is it not?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Have you a house there?
A: I am a renter.
Q: Who do you rent from?
A: Wet Branch Mining Company.
Q: You are still in the employ of the Wet Branch Mining Company?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How long have you been in their employ?
A: I have been four years the 29th day of this July - 5 years.
Q: Have you made it a custom all the time you have been a member of that local - 1818, I believe you said, to attend their meetings?
A: Yes sir, up until the time I went out as Financial Secretary, I was regular, made it a point to be there.
Q: You know practically all of the members of that organization, do you not?
A: I know most of them.
Q: You know practically all of them during the months of August and September last, did you not?
A: No sir, we had quite a number of new members in there that I was not personally acquainted with.
Q: You were well acquainted with a great majority, were you not?
A: Yes sir.
Q: What kind of mine work do you do?
A: Miner - load coal, lay tracks.
Q: You may, to the best of your judgment - 250 members of that local --
A: No - to the best of my recollection I said 203 paid the 30th of June. That is to the best of my recollection.
Q: And that is the June immediately preceding this alleged assembly?
A: Yes sir, 1921.
Q: Did you ever have any trouble with that Local Union or their officers? I mean, is the feeling between you and the members of the Local good, or do you have any ill feeling?
A: Up until - you are personally familiar with the trouble I had with the Local over that Burial -
Q: Yes sir.
A: That is all the trouble I ever had.
Q: You have had some trouble with the members of that Union, haven't you?
A: In regard to the Burial Fund. I had a law suit with them.
Q: And your feeling toward them, and their feeling toward you is not of the best, is it?
Objection
Over ruled
Exception
A: I want to answer it. I have no ill feelings toward them. I have the best feeling toward the members of my Local Union. They have bad feeling toward me. I have nothing against them personally.
Q: Who first talked to you about these matters to which you have just testified?
A: In regard to this case?
Q: Yes.
A: It is public talk up there.
Q: I am asking you who first talked to you about the case and what you would testify here?
A: I talked to Mr. Williams.
Q: Mr. George Williams?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Mr. George Williams who lives in the town of Beckley, isn't that true?
A: I don't know where he lives.
Q: Mr. Williams is an attorney at law, isn't he?
A: He said he was.
Q: And you know as a matter of fact that Mr. Williams is employed by the Coal Operators Association of the Winding Gulf District do you not?
A: I don't know that.
Q: Isn't that a matter of common knowledge?
A: Not common knowledge to me, because I don't know anything about it. I don't know whether he is or not.
Q: How many times did you talk to Williams about this?
A: I talked to him once.
Q: Where was that?
A: In the city of Charleston.
Q: Was anybody else present?
A: No sir.
Q: Did you talk to either one of these other eminent gentlemen at the bar, Mr. Ossington or Mr. Belcher? Or Mr. Brown?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where did you first converse with Mr. Belcher about this case?
A: Harpers Ferry last night.
Q: Did you talk to Mr. Ossington about it?
A: Mr. Ossington was present.
Q: Where are you stopping here?
A: Jefferson Hotel.
Q: You went over to the town of Harpers Ferry to talk about this case?
A: I talked about it over there.
Q: You drove over there for the purpose of talking to these gentlemen about it, didn't you? They requested you to go over there and tell them about this case, didn't they?
A: No sir. I don't know who the young fellow was that asked me to go over there. He didn't say what I was going for.
Q: You don't know who you went with nor why?
A: After I went, I talked to these States lawyers. I didn't know for sure that was what I was going for.
Q: You got in the car here in the town of Charles Town, and drove over to Harpers Ferry without knowing why you were going.
A: It wasn't mentioned to me, why.
Q: And you didn't know?
A: I will be frank about it - that was what I was going for.
Q: Who paid your way up here?
A: I come on what is called "The Logan Special" Have to pay it myself.
Q: Where did you get on?
A: Charleston.
Q: Which way did you travel - over the main line of the C and O?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You came over to Basic City?
A: I don't know, sir.
Q: There were a large number of other persons on that car, weren't there?
A: The paper said 125.
Q: That was a fair estimate, was it not?
A: Yes sir. I judge there was that many, I don't know.
Q: Did you talk to anybody on the train about what you were going to testify to?
A: No sir.
Q: That train was called the Logan Special, is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: And that was furnished, was it not, by the Coal Operators of Logan County?
A: I don't know, sir.
Q: You didn't pay any of your own fare, did you?
A: No.
Q: Who's paying your expenses here?
A: I haven't had anyone to tell me. I suppose I will pay it myself. I am planning on it.
Q: Nothing has been said to you by anyone about your paying your expenses up here - that anybody else would pay it?
A: Nothing at all. I am planning on paying myself.
Q: How did you come to the Jefferson Hotel after you arrived here? Who directed you to the Jefferson Hotel?
A: Young man - I believe his name was Gore.
Q: What is his first name?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know what official position he occupies in Logan County?
A: No sir.
Q: Do you know whether that is the same Gore that is Deputy Sheriff of Logan County?
A: I don't know, never seen him before.
Q: When he directed you to go to the Jefferson, did he say anything about who was to pay your expenses?
A: No sir. I expect to pay it myself when the State settles with me
Q: You didn't pay your railroad fare did you?
A: No sir. I learned some of the witnesses settled up and they paid it. I am calculating on paying my expenses myself, I haven't received a cent from anybody.
Q: You say "they" paid the expenses of those witnesses what do you mean by that?
Objection
Over ruled
Exception
A: I said the State.
Q: But you do not expect to pay your railroad fare back, do you?
A: Yes sir, I expect to. I have been informed some of them went back and paid it.
Q: How many conferences have you had with the gentlemen, ostensibly representing the State, since you came here?
Objection
Sustained
Q: How many conferences have you had with the gentlemen representing the prosecution?
A: Impersonate either one you want - if you say Mr. Ossington -
Q: You said you had a conference with Mr. Ossington and Mr. Belcher at Harpers Ferry last night?
A: That is the only conference I have had since I came here.
Q: You live at the town of Dry Branch. That is a very mountainous country - narrow valley, bounded on each side by high hills or mountains, is it not?
A: Yes sir. I live up Wet Branch.
Q: Where is Wet Branch situated? On Cabin Creek?
A: Yes sir, empties into - flows into Cabin Creek.
Q: Now the town of Dry Branch in which you live is right where this little stream - Dry Branch, empties into Cabin Creek - the town in which you live is located at the mouth of Dry Branch, is that right?
A: No sir.
Q: How far from Dry Branch do you live?
A: I live up Wet Branch. I live in the Wet Branch Mining Company's property. They are located on Wet Branch. The Dry Branch Coal Co. is located on Dry Branch.
Q: How far is that from the mouth of Cabin Creek down to the C and O railroad, main branch?
A: They call it 23 miles from where I live to the mouth of the Creek.
Q: How far is it from Cabin Creek Jct to Marmet?
A: I don't know sir. Some call it five miles. They have different opinions about it. I don't know. Some call it 5 - some 6.
Q: I mean approximately, that is all?
A: It is called 8 miles from Dry Branch to Marmet. That is what they call it. I don't know. I have never measured it.
Q: This meeting you have referred to, which Mother Jones is said to have addressed, is about 5 miles up Lens Creek, isn't it?
A: That is the way it is estimated.
Q: Therefore, you traveled in going from your home to the place where this meeting was held, the distance of about 13 miles, is that right?
A: Yes sir.
Q: To make that trip you would have to go down a road leading from Wet Creek to Cabin Creek Junction, would you not?
A: Yes sir.
Q: And all of that is extremely mountainous country, isn't it? High hills on both sides?
A: On both sides of Cabin Creek.
Q: Then you would go to Cabin Creek Junction on the Public road on the south side of Kanawha River, would you not?
A: It is on the Cabin Creek side.
Q: Then in making the trip you refer to, or the trips, you came first to Cabin Creek Junction?
A: Yes, you would have to come first to Cabin Creek Junction to get to Marmet.
Q: Then you came down the Kanawha River?
A: Yes, down to Lens Creek.
Q: During the entire distance to Cabin Creek Junction you travelled on the road that kept you in sight of the Kanawha river, did you not?
A: No, not in sight of the river. You are in sight of the river at Cabin Creek where it empties into it at Cabin Creek Junction; then you leave the side of the river after you leave Cabin Cr. Junction to the left and follow the man road. You are not constantly in sight of the river all the way. Practically you follow the river, you are not always in sight of it.
Q: There are several small towns between Cabin Creek and Marmet are there not?
A: Yes, there is Chelyan, and a town called Chesapeake.
Q: And one called Winifred?
A: Yes.
Q: Then you go down to the mouth of Lens Creek?
A: You go down to Chesapeake and then to the mouth of Lens creek.
Q: Then when you go to the upper end of Marmet you turned up what is known as Lens Creek?
A: Yes.
Q: That is the way you went on that occasion?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: It was not an unusual thing to see people scattered along the road there, was it, even when there was no march?
A: It was very unusual to see them in that large an assembly.
Q: Coming down on the first trip where did you first encounter a body of men?
A: Pretty close to the fork of the road. You cross going east over a little bridge and then you turn to the left just below the railroad.
Q: You are not answering my question -
A: Let me tell you the way I can -
Q: What I want you to tell me is how far up the creek you were when you first encountered these men?
A: About two miles up the creek is where the first assembly was.
Q: To the best of your knowledge you passed through the corporate limits of Marmet?
A: Yes, you strike the corporation before you get to Lens creek. I don't know just how far the corporation extends from Lens creek. It is posted there.
Q: The first body of men was about a mile and a half from the mouth of the creek, you say?
A: Yes, the first time I was up there.
Q: That is, to the best of your knowledge, it would be about a mile and a half?
A: Yes.
Q: Then it would be about a mile and a half from the corporate limits of Marmet?
A: I never made any such statement as that?
Q: How far would it be then?
A: The corporation is not posted and I don't know how far it extends.
Q: It is at least a mile, is it not?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know where the corporation limits are?
A: I don't know about it up Lens Creek. I know the corporation limits east and west because it is posted on the man line.
Q: Then to the best of your recollection you did not encounter the men until a mile and a half from there?
A: No.
Q: Can you give an estimate of the population of Marmet?
A: I think about 1,000. I don't know positively.
Q: It is a railroad station on the C. and O. Railroad main line?
A: Yes.
Q: What time of day was it that you made the first trip?
A: I don't know.
Q: When did you arrive at this body of men?
A: In the morning.
Q: Was it late in the morning?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Can you fix the day of the week or month?
A: No, not to be positive, I can't.
Q: Can you tell us how many days it was before Aug. 24th when you said this meeting was held above Hernshaw?
A: My first day up there was three days before.
Q: And you say you don't recall the day of the week?
A: No.
Q: I believe you stated you made the second trip the following day?
A: Yes, to the best of my recollection.
Q: But you are not certain?
A: I am pretty sure, but not positive.
Q: What time of day was it?
A: Early in the morning.
Q: Can you tell us the hour at which you arrived?
A: No, I can't.
Q: On this second trip where did you encounter the first body of men?
A: Some of them in the same place where they were. They were all there in the same place. That was as far as I went.
Q: And that was about a mile and a half from the mouth of the creek?
A: Yes.
Q: About how many men were there on the first trip - did you not state that there were about 250 to 300?
A: I estimate that there were about 500.
Q: On the second trip about how many were there?
A: This was the second trip you asked me about.
Q: How many were there on the first trip was my question?
A: I judge there to have been about 150 on the first day and on the next day I judge them to have been about 500 that were assembled there.
Q: You stated in your examination in chief that there were about 250 there - was it 150 or 250?
A: I just estimated the number. I did not count them.
Q: Did you hear any speeches made on that day?
A: The speech was on the third trip. Mother Jones was there. I heard Savery Holt making a speech there on that day.
Q: Do you mean on the third trip?
A: No, Mother Jones' speech was on the third day. A man by the name of Savery Holt was making a speech on the first day and the second day I was in the camp.
Q: Can you tell us the day of the week on which the third trip was made?
A: No, I don't recall the day of the week.
Q: Can you tell the jury the day of the month?
A: The day Mother Jones spoke I think was the 24th day of August.
Q: In going to the place where that meeting was held, you travelled the same road as on the first and second trips, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: In making that third trip, where did you first encounter the body of men?
A: At the mouth of the creek and scattered along five miles up the creek.
Q: Where did you first meet them?
A: At the mouth of the creek.
Q: You are well acquainted in that section, are you not?
A: Yes.
Q: You knew a number of the people around Marmet, did you not?
A: Very few. I knew Miller, the mayor and a very few of the other men.
Q: You knew most of the miners in your community, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: You knew them, or else knew them by sight?
A: Yes, some of the men I saw every day.
Q: Who was in the first crowd you me[t] at the mouth of the creek?
A: I don't recall. I don't think I could say.
Q: Can you tell the jury how many there were? In that first crowd?
A: No, I could not.
Q: Were there as many as five?
A: They were scattered along from the mouth of the creek on up where Mother Jones was to speak. I went in behind Mother. I don't know how many there were there, or recall their names.
Q: Were there as many as five in that crowd at the mouth of the creek?
A: Yes. There were that many.
Q: Were there as many as ten?
A: I could not answer that. I did not count them.
Q: And you did not know a single one of them?
A: I don't recall any of them.
Q: What were they doing?
A: They were on guard on this occasion that Mother Jones was to speak. They were guarding the road.
Q: Where were they located with reference to the bridge?
A: Right along on the bridge. The road came in this direction, here was the bridge across Lens creek. This is the road coming down from Logan County and going into Charleston. They were located at the fork of the roads.
Q: What kind of weapons did they have?
A: Rifles and pistols.
Q: You still cannot give any closer estimate than you have already given of the number of men there?
A: I don't think I can.
Q: Were there as many as twenty five?
A: It would be a pretty hard proposition for a man to confine himself to a question like that when they were scattered five miles up the creek.
Q: You say they were walking along the road?
A: Yes.
Q: They were walking along a public road, were they not?
A: Yes, and there were men stationed there to guard it.
Q: The men were going up Lens creek?
A: Yes.
Q: The main meeting was held above Hernshaw, was it not?
A: Yes, up to the mines. They call it Hernshaw.
Q: The point of assembly of that crowd as about the town of Hernshaw, was it not?
A: Yes, right up in the hills.
Q: Hernshaw is about four miles from Marmet, is it not?
A: Some call it five miles.
Q: About how far above the town Hernshaw was the meeting held? About a mile?
A: I don't remember. I don't know whether you would say it was a mile or a half mile. It was above there and there was a large assembly of people. I don't know the distance. I am not familiar with the distance.
Q: It was about five or six miles from the mouth of the creek, was it not?
A: It is called five miles from the mouth of the creek to the place where Mother Jones was speaking.
Q: And these people on the road were apparently going to the meeting above Hernshaw, were they not?
A: Yes, the word came into our camp that Mother Jones had something good to tell the folks and wanted everyone to be there.
Q: Please come back to my question -
A: I am trying to answer it.
Q: I asked you whether or not these people going along the public road were not apparently bound for this meeting at Hernshaw?
A: They were holding it at the mines.
Q: What was your information at that time that people were going to that meeting, was it not?
A: That is what you thought?
Q: Yes.
A: You met an unusual number of people going up Lens Creek?
Q: Yes.
A: They seemed to be bound for this meeting of Mother Jones?
Q: Yes.
A: So far as you know that was the only assembly of people held in Logan County, was it not?
Exception. Exception overruled by Court.
Q: That was the only time they were assembled there, was it not?
A: That was the third time on Lens Creek.
Q: That was the only assembly that was held on or about the 24th of August, was it not?
A: I don't know how to answer that.
Q: You went from the mouth of Lens Creek to the meeting that was held about Hernshaw, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see any other assembly of people between the mouth of Lens Creek and Hernshaw?
A: I passed people moving up the creek in that direction?
Q: About what time of day did you make that trip on the 24th.
A: The statement was that Mother Jones would speak there at ten o'clock.
Q: I did not ask you that.
A: I will have to answer it that way.
THE COURT: You must let the witness answer in his own way.
A. I tried to arrange to get there at ten o'clock, but I don't think she began that early. Q: What time did you get there?
A: I tried to be there by ten. That is as nearly as I can answer you on that.
Q: Did I understand you to say about ten in the morning?
A: Yes, we tried to get there at ten.
Q: That was about the time the meeting was held?
A: I think Mother was late, but I am not sure.
Q: What time did you leave Lens creek on your second trip, the day before this meeting you have been speaking of?
A: I don't remember how long I stayed on the creek. I think I was there in the morning.
Q: Did you stay until afternoon?
A: I don't know. I think I was there about two hours. That was the second day.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. OSENTON.
Q: I understand you to say in your cross examination that on the first and second trips you heard a man by the name of Savery Holt making a speech?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember what he said on the first occasion?
Exception by Mr. Townsend.
THE COURT. The indictment alleges that the defendant, and a large number of other persons, some of whose names are given, and a large number of persons who are unknown, are members of the conspiracy. I think they would have a right to show anything that was done in that assembly.
QUESTIONS RESUMED BY MR. OSENTON.
Q. What day was this that Savery Holt spoke - the same day that Mother Jones spoke?
A: No, it was two days before that.
Q: Was Mr. Blizzard there?
A: No, I only saw him there the day Mother spoke. I heard Savery Holt make two speeches. The day Mother Jones spoke I did not see Savery Holt.
Q: What was the first day you saw this defendant there?
A: The day Mother Jones spoke.
Exception by Mr. Townsend.
Exception sustained by the Court and question withdrawn.
Mr. Belcher is granted permission to recall this witness at a later date if desired.