E. C. Lee testimony
(transcriber may have made spelling and punctuation changes)
E. C. LEE
A witness of lawful age, being first duly sworn -
Q. (Mr. Osenton) Where do you live?
A. In Charleston.
Q. Are you a member of the United Mine Workers of America?
A. Yes.
Q. Where, if any where, were you working in August and September, 1921?
A. In the Marshall Field Coal Company.
Q. Where is this Company's place of business?
A. On Dry Branch, up Campbell's creek.
Q. How far is that from the city of Charleston?
A. About five miles.
Q. Is it in Kanawha county?
A. Yes.
Q. How far is it from the town of Marmet?
A. I could not tell you the distance exactly, but I judge about six or seven miles.
Q. What official position, if any did you hold then in the United Mine Worker at that time?
A. I was president of our Local.
Q. Were you working for the Marshall Field Company then?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the number of your Local Union?
A. it is 5045 if I am not mistaken.
Q. About how many members belonged to the local in August, 1921?
A. I judge we had about 35 members in the lot.
Q. Did you hear anything of or concerning the assembling of the miners at Marmet?
A. Not until the morning they quit work.
Q. Tell the jury what you first learned of that assemblage?
A. On Saturday morning in the latter part of August the report came there was a gathering at Marmet. Mr. Allen brought the message and it was reported at the mines.
Q. Who brought the message?
A. Walter Allen
Q. Did you talk to him on that occasion?
A. No.
Q. Did he make any statement to you at that time as to whom he brought that message from to tell the miners that they were wanted at Marmet?
A. He did not say who sent the message. He did not say who gave him the message, but that the miners were to meet at Marmet.
Q. Then what occurred after this message was given to the miners by Walter Allen?
A. He said that all who wanted to vote to go should hold up their right foot and they all voted go.
Q. At what time of the day was it that Walter Allen came to the mines with the message?
A. It was before work time in the morning.
Q. What time in the morning?
Q. I judge about 7 or 7:15 o'clock.
Q. After the men voted to go as you have stated, what did they do?
A. Most of them wanted to go and they disbanded and left the hollow that is, most of them did.
Q. How did they go? Did you see any of them going out?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether any of those who went carried arms?
A. No, I don't know about that.
Q. What happened next with reference to this meeting this morning at Marmet?
A. On Monday Allen asked me to take my car and go to Marmet.
Q. What kind of car did you have?
A. An ____ (Ashe).
Q. What did he say to you?
A. He said they needed me and they needed my car very badly.
A. Did you go?
A. Yes.
Q. Who went with you other than Walter Allen on this trip?
A. Mr. Allen, Mr. Flake and I believe John Shannon, though I am not sure.
Q. And you went to Marmet?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you stay in Marmet?
A. About an hour.
Q. Who did you find there?
A. I found a bunch of men there.
Q. Where were they with reference to the town.
A. I judge they were about a mile up the creek.
Q. About how many were there?
A. Between 500 and 400.
Q. Were any of them armed?
A. Yes.
Q. Then what did you do next?
A. I went with Mr. Allen to Kanawha Valley Grocery.
Q. Where is that?
A. On Kanawha street in Charleston.
Q. What did you go there for?
A. For provisions.
Q. Did you get them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do with them after you got them?
A. We brought them to the camp at Marmet.
Q. Did Mr. Allen do with you for the load of provisions?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of provisions did you get?
A. Mostly bread, and beans and bacon and things of that kind and canned goods.
Q. Who paid for them?
A. I could not say for Mr. Walter Allen went in after them and got them.
Q. What did you next do after delivering the supplies to the camp at Marmet?
A. I came to the mouth of the Hollow and brought some nurses up.
Q. At whose direction did you take these nurses up the creek?
A. At Mr. Allen's direction.
Q. Did you know what Mr. Allen wanted these nurses brought up the creek for?
A. No.
Q. How were these nurses dressed.
A. They had on caps with the Local's number on it.
Q. Do you mean the local number of the United Mine workers?
A. Yes.
Q. Then after you had taken these nurses up at the instance of Walter Allen, what did you do?
A. I was asked to go back to Charleston.
Q. What were you to go back for?
A. To try to get a load of ammunition.
Q. Who asked you to go to Charleston for ammunition.
A. Mr. Allen.
Q. Did you go?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get the ammunition?
A. No.
Q. Who went with you on that occasion.
A. Robert Shepherd.
Q. Who is he?
A. He is a fellow that works with the Marshall Field Co.
Q. Is he also a member of the United Mine Workers of America?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where Walter Allen directed this man who went with you to go to Charleston to get the ammunition?
A. No, not for sure.
Q. Did he state to you while taking him to Charleston that that was his purpose and that he had been directed so to do by Walter Allen?
Exceptions.
Objection overruled.
Q. What statement, if any, did Shepherd make with reference to the purpose of his going to Charleston?
A. Nothing, only he was going to Charleston to get ammunition and wanted to know if I could get some from Sparks.
Q. Did you get the ammunition?
A. I tried to but could not get it.
Q. What did you do after you failed to get this ammunition?
A. I left him and went home.
Q. You say you live in Charleston?
A. I was living at Dry Branch then.
Q. What did you do after you failed to get the ammunition with reference to this march, after you went home?
A. That's was on Wednesday, and I went back over there by the instructions of Robert Shepherd. I came that night a took Robert Shepherd and old Mr. Shepherd and one or two others whose names I do not know.
Q. Where did you take them?
A. I took them to the camp.
Q. How did they approach you at the time they asked you to come with them?
A. They demanded that I take them, or else give them the car to use.
A. Were they armed at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you take them willingly?
A. No, I refused twice.
Q. What happened then?
A. They said we want you to take us, and if you don't we will take the car and go ourselves.
Q. Did you understand from their attitude that they would carry out their threat and take the car if you did not go with them?
A. Yes.
Objection.
Objection overruled.
Q. Was it because of these statements that caused you to take them?
A. It certainly was.
Q. You did take them to Marmet, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you find when you got there?
A. I found several people there.
Q. Was Walter Allen there?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he doing?
A. He was standing at the mess place. He poured me out a cup of coffee and handed it to me and said he wanted me to go to town and would like to get back by noon, and I said I did not know whether I could do that or not, but I went.
Q. What did he tell you he wanted you to go to town for?
A. He did not say.
Q. What did you say to him?
A. I said I would do it.
Q. Did you go?
A. Yes.
Q. Who went with you?
A. Two fellows. I don't know their names. They were strangers to me.
Q. Where did you go to Charleston with these two strangers that you took there at the direction of Walter Allen.
A. To the people's store on Kanawha street.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I went back to the camp.
Q. What did you take if anything back to the camp?
A. Nothing, I picked up some nurses at Marmet.
Q. Where did you take these nurses?
A. About four miles up the hollow.
Q. How many nurses were there on that occasion?
A. Two.
Q. Were you wearing the same uniform?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell the jury what next were you asked to do?
A. I was not asked to do anything. I asked about coming out and they told me I could not get out without a pass, so I saw Mr. Alvin and he gave me one.
Q. Who signed it?
A. He did.
Q. Have you that pass?
A. No.
Q. Tell the jury what this pass was, what was written on it?
Objection. Overruled.
Q. (by the Court) Where is the pass?
A. I haven't it, they taken it up at the last place.
Q. You mean the last guard line took up the pass as you went out?
A. Yes.
Q. Therefore, you do not know where it is?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell the jury what was on the pass - in other words what Alvin wrote?
A. I know his name was on it and Mr. Blizzard's name.
Q. William Blizzard?
A. I could not say whether it was William or not, all I seen was Mr. Blizzard.
Q. You went home, did you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What next did you do if anything in regard to that situation there?
A. I came back there Friday morning and said they wanted me over at Danville. On the way over we found Mr. Keeney had come ahead and was turning the men back. We stopped at the foot of Danville Hill and came back to Indian Creek.
Q. What occurred there?
A. We met Mr. Munsey and we turned and came home that evening.
Q. What Munsey?
A. D. Munsey.
Q. Was he a Union Mine Worker?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You went home after meeting at Danville in seeing Mr. Keeney there, what did you do? - Walter Allen or any of the men that were active in that march?
A. I never done nothing more until Sunday morning about 11 o'clock.
Q. What occurred Sunday morning about 11 o'clock?
A. Mr. Allen came to me about 11 o'clock and Mr. McCann and told me they wanted to go to Jeffreys, I made an excuse and said I had to go to town, he said "To hell with town, we want to go to Jeffreys," I told them my casings were bad, worn out, they said that would be all right they would buy new casings, that they had money enough to buy four cars.
Q. Said they would buy gasoline and oil and had money enough to buy four cars, who made that statement?
A. Walter Allen.
Q. Was he insistent on that occasion that you go?
A. He was.
Q. And you went?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go?
A. Jeffreys.
Q. At that time you told him your casings were bad you meant automobile tires?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were any casings or tires purchased on that occasion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. At a cut rate place on Summer Street.
Q. How many?
A. Two.
Q. Who paid for them?
A. John Flake paid for those.
Q. Was he with you?
A. As far as he went.
Q. He did not go further than Charleston?
A. No.
Q. Were the tires put on the car there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. We went to Jeffreys.
Q. Where is Jeffreys, tell the jury how you went from Charleston to Jeffreys?
A. We went to Marmet, to Coal River, across the hill to Danville, up through Madison - up that way.
Q. What would the distance be by the way you went?
A. My register showed 51 miles.
Q. Who went with you than Walter Allen on that trip?
A. McCann and John Shannon.
Q. Were they armed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What with?
A. Pistols.
Q. Where they carried out where they could be seen?
A. No, sir.
Q. How did you know they had them?
A. Because they gave me one.
Q. What kind of pistol did they give you?
A. A thirtytwo [sic].
Q. What did they tell you it was for?
A. Well, they give it to me for fear we would meet guards or something like that.
Q. Mr. Lee, did Walter Allen at any time during the time you were carrying out his orders tell you what the purpose was of this armed march, what they intended to do?
A. Yes, him and several others told me they aimed to go to Logan County and kill the sheriff and go in and take the prisoners and organize.
Q. You mean the prisoners of what county?
A. Logan County.
Q. Was anything said there about Mingo County?
A. It was Mingo County I meant to say, not Logan.
Q. Did they tell you just how they going to do so and release the prisoners?
A. No.
Q. You knew at the time martial law existed in Mingo County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear Walter Allen or any of these other men that you have named talking about martial law in Mingo County?
A. Only a few times before this march, the news came in about how they were treating the men, about pouring oil on the floor and tearing up the beds and things like that.
Q. Tell the jury what they said about it - in substance, not the exact words - what did they say?
A. They called them mine guards and Baldwin Felts.
Q. You say you on this occasion when you drove to Jeffrey with Walter Allen and the others you name - what did you do next?
A. After we got there?
Q. Yes.
A. Mr. Allen and McCann went away and came back in an hour and told me and Shannon we could go back home and Walter gave me $5.00 to buy something to eat and gasoline and we came back.
Q. Was there any other arrangement made by Walter Allen with you to furnish supplies to these men?
A. Not that occasion.
Q. Did you and this man you last named go home after being told you could do so?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What else were you required to do by these men?
A. The next trip I made was down in Ohio.
Q. What did you go for?
A. Ammunition.
Q. Who sent you?
A. Why John Flake and John Shannon came to my house one morning and said they wanted to go over to Ohio to get ammunition.
Q. What did you tell them?
A. I told them my two front casings were bad and I did not care to make the trip was bad casings, they said, "We have got the money to buy cases."
Q. That made four casings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you purchase them?
A. At the same place.
Q. Do you know who paid for those casings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who?
A. Flake and Shannon.
Q. Are they members of the Union Mine Workers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What local?
A. Same local.
Q. Did you willingly go?
A. He insisted on my going.
Q. What did you say to this?
A. I could not go he would take the car and get some one to run it. I said I did not want any one to run my car and I would rather run it myself, He said "By God, get ready, if you don't take your car, I will take her.
Q. To what point did you go?
A. Drove to Mr. Whitey's residence about 25 miles from Huntington.
Q. Did you go down by way of Huntington up the river?
A. Right up the river.
Q. In other words you went from Charleston to Huntington?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the distance from Charleston to Huntington?
A. I could not say.
Q. I suppose it is conceded to be about 50 miles, now what did you do, you say you went to Whitey's about 25 miles above Huntington, who was with you on that occasion?
A. John Shannon, John Flake and two other fellows.
Q. Where were you going in Ohio?
A. I forget the name of the town, a small place where there was a hardware store and they heard there was ammunition there, but Mr. Whitey said some one had been there the evening before and they had no ammunition.
Q. You received no ammunition in that town?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you do next?
A. Came back and went to Cattlettsburg.
Q. In Kentucky?
A. Yes.
Q. About how far is Catlettsburg, Ky. from Hutnington [Huntington]?
A. I do not know.
Q. Can you give some idea?
A.I judge about eight miles, something like that.
Q. When you got to Catlettsburg, what did these men with you do?
A. Drove in front of a hardware store and got out and bought ammunition.
Q. What kind of ammunition?
A. Thirty-thirty - how- power stuff.
Q. About how much did they buy?
A. $255. Worth.
Q. What did they do with it?
A. Brought it back and put it at Dry Branch.
Q. Then what was since done with it?
A. The next morning they brought it to Lens Creek.
Q. Did they go with you to Lens Creek?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whom did you deliver the ammunition to which was purchased in Kentucky?
A. I don't know what their names were, four oars were setting there waiting for the ammunition.
Q. Four cars?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You mean four automobiles?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were any other purchase of ammunition delivered at the same time?
A. I suppose they had ammunition in the care when we got there.
Move to strike this answer. Overruled.
Q. You say four cars were there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you notice how much ammunition was in the four cars?
A. Well, only by the bulk when it was packed in the car?
Q. What would you say judging from the ammunition you had carried there as being worth $255. the ammunition you say in the four cars was worth?
Exception.
The court: He can state how it appeared to him.
Q. How did the quantity of ammunition you found compare with that you took in?
A. I judge by the way it was packed it would be between $600. and $700. worth, maybe more.
Q. Now, was this ammunition you took in unloaded from your car and placed in the other cars?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What became of these cars after they were loaded with ammunition?
A. They started across the hill.
Q. In what direction?
A. Coal River.
Q. Up Lens Creek?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time were there any men assembled at Lens Creek?
A. About 50 or 60 men were there at that place.
Q. Were they armed?
A. Some were.
Q. What kind of weapons?
A. High-power.
Q. High-power rifles?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What next did you do, or did they require you to do?
A. We came back to Charleston that day.
Q. Did you after you had returned to Charleston from delivering the ammunition, did you do anything other later than that?
A. No, we fooled around town and along about 4 o'clock went home the boys were out in town soliciting.
Q. What next, if anything, did you do?
Q. (continued) Did you make any other, further additional trips?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know, or did you know any of the men who were in charge of these four cars of ammunition which you say started on up Lens Creek?
A. Did I know them?
Q. Yes.
A. I do not.
Q. Did they demand you do anything further in reference to buying ammunition after you had delivered the first quantity?
A. Not only that morning we took the ammunition over Mr. Munsey wanted me to go with the boys ---
Q. What boys?
A. John Flake and John Shannon, Mr. Munsey said he would get a taxi in Charleston.
Q. Did he get a taxi for the purpose of going after the ammunition?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he say at that time he asked you to go over what he was going for?
A. not at the time he did not.
Q. Well, do you know of any other ammunition that was brought in to Dry Branch?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who brought it in?
A. Mr. Munsey.
Q. How long after he asked you to go over until he brought that ammunition in?
A. The day after that.
Q. About how much ammunition did they bring in to Dry Branch?
A. About $255. worth something like that.
Q. At the time these men were notified that they were wanted at Marmet did any one there in the crowd give the information as to who wanted them there or who directed them to come to Marmet?
A. Mr. Shannon.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said Allen told them to meet at Jeffreys, he would meet them there on the next train. Q. Was anything said there about a letter or information coming from any one in Charleston as to what they wanted to do at that time during the march, or immediately preceding it?
A. No, sir, not that I know of.
Q. You had a store there at Dry Branch, did you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of a store?
A. Grocery store.
Q. Was any arrangement made with you to furnish supplies to the men there while the men were armed?
A. Yes, sir. A man told Mr. Allen several of the leaders, officers of the local said go ahead and feed these wives and we will see the bill settled when we get back.
Q. Who did they tell you would settle bills for supplies you furnished?
A. The local.
Q. Local union?
A. Yes, sir.
Exception.
Q. Who were these men that made this arrangement with you, told you the local union would pay for supplies to be furnished by you?
A. Mr. Allen was one and Mr. Shepherd was another.
Q. What official position did they hold with the local union?
A. Mr. Allen was secretary and Mr. Shepherd Bank Committee.
Q. Did you furnish the supplies?
A. I did.
Q. What amount?
A. Through the march up to the day I went out of business it amounted to $1285.
E. X. E. C. Lee
Direct Examination (Continued)
By Mr. Belcher.
Q. Mr. Lee, did your local union spend any money because of this march and if so, about how much?
A. I judge about $350 or $400.
Q. Who handled that money?
A. Mr. Allen.
Q. Did your local union receive money from any other local union?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From what local union did it receive money?
A. Received it from the coal companies at the head of Campbell Creek, Putney Local.
Q. How much money did the Putney Local turn over to your local to be used on this occasion?
A. Close to $350. or $600.
Q. Will you tell the jury if you know who it was that brought this money from the Putney local?
A. The first time the president of the local brought it and the other two times the secretary.
Q. Tell the jury the name of the president
A. I do not know his name.
Q. Did you know the other official - the secretary?
A. No, I did not.
Q. How was the money paid by the Putney local?
A. The morning the boys left to go over there on the last march the president came down that morning and brought $150, and on the Friday before that Mr. Flake and the fellow by the name of Frazier went up there and got $150. or $250. I don't know which.
Q. Was there any other occasion on which money was given by that local?
A. The secretary came down two different times and brought money.
Q. Do you know about what date it was that he last came down and brought money?
A. As near as I can tell I think it was on the Thursday following their last charge over there, they left on Monday and the following Thursday was the last time.
Q. Mr. Lee, were you on Lens Creek the day Mother Jones made a speech to the miners there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time in the day were you there?
A. About four o'clock in the afternoon?
Q. Was it your information that Mother Jones had been there and gone?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you talk with any one there concerning the speech that had been made?
A. No one but Mr. Allen that was on our way up from Charleston.
Q. What statement, if any, did Walter Allen made on that occasion about the speech that Mother Jones made?
Objection. Sustained.
Q. Did Walter Allen tell you that day going up Lens Creek of the orders that had been given by Keeney?
A. Yes, sir, he told me he had orders.
Q. Now tell the jury just what it was that Walter Allen said concerning these orders that Keeney had given to the men.
Objection. Sustained.
Q. Do you know whether or not at the time you were going up there with Walter Allen these men were moving out up Lens Creek, or were they waiting there?
A. I don't know only what Mr. Allen told me, that the men had—
Objection. Sustained.
Q. You went on with Walter Allen up Lens Creek, did you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you got there were the men waiting or were they marching?
A. They were waiting.
Q. What did Walter Allen tell you they were waiting for?
A. On orders from Mr. Keeney.
Q. What, if anything, was said about that matter, in other words was there anything further said in that connection as to why they were waiting?
A. On account of the false telegram that she had brought there to them.
Q. Who had brought there?
A. Mother Jones.
Q. Do you know whether or not these men who were they waiting for further orders received any further orders that night?
A. I do not.
Q. You stated this morning that under the arrangement with Walter Allen and these other men made with you with reference to furnishing supplies to these people, that you had given them supplies to the value of about $1285.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they later pay you that sum?
A. I received $105. from the local.
Q. How did you receive that?
A. Through the local.
Q. Was it in cash or check?
A. Check.
Q. By whom was the check signed if you recollect?
A. By Mr. Allen and Sam Marlow.
Q. Is Sam Marlow an official of the local there?
A. He was president at the time.
Q. On what bank was that check drawn?
A. I believe it was drawn on the Citizens National Bank there across from the post office.
Q. Did they refuse to pay you the balance?
A. The men had a meeting and they promised to pay me, but I have never received anything from them.
Cross Examination
By Mr. Townsend.
Q. How old are you?
A. 41.
Q. Where were you born?
A. Indiana.
Q. How long have you been living in West Va.
A. 22 years.
Q. How long have you lived in Kanawha County?
A. About four years.
Q. Where did you come from when you came to Kanawha County?
A. I came from Mt. Hope.
Q. How long have you been in West Va.?
A. I said 22 years.
Q. And in Kanawha County, how long?
A. Four years.
Q. And you came from Mt. Hope in Fayette County?
A. The first place was Perryville.
Q. Where is that?
A. On Campbell Creek.
Q. A short distance above Charleston, is it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do?
A. I ran a machine.
Q. At the mine?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you go to Cabin Creek?
A. On Dry Branch?
Q. Yes.
A. I went right after that.
Q. Have you been on Cabin Creek ever since?
A. No.
Q. How long did you stay on Cabin Creek?
A. I was on Campbell Creek on Dry Branch.
Q. Is Campbell on Dry Branch?
A. Well, rather Dry Branch is on Campbell Creek.
Q. Is Dry Branch on Campbell Creek?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don't mean the dry Branch on Cabin Creek, do you?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you do while you were at Dry Branch on Campbell Creek?
A. I run machines, loaded coal and ran a store.
Q. What else did you do?
A. That is all.
Q. What did you do outside of the mines?
A. Ran a store.
Q. Anything else?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you not a minister of the gospel?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What church do you belong to?
A. The Church of Christ.
Q. You have preached some, haven't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you preach?
A. On the hill and some around Dry Branch.
Q. Were you paid for it?
A. Did I get paid for it?
Q. Yes.
A. There are not many ministers that get paid much. No, I did not.
Q. You preached voluntarily?
A. I did.
Q. How long did you preach up there?
A. I preached off and on nearly all the time I stayed there.
Q. How long was that?
A. About 12 months.
Q. Did you preach any sermons during this march?
A. No.
Q. You did not?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you come back from over on Coal River and preach a sermon on Sunday---
A. I did not.
Q. What building did you preach in?
A. I didn't preach in any.
Q. Where did you hold your meetings?
A. I didn't hold any meetings.
Q. Where did you do your preaching?
A. I didn't do any preaching.
Q. Didn't you just say you preached some up there?
A. That was before the march.
Q. That is what I am talking about, where did you preach?
A. At homes and in School house.
Q. What is the name of the school houses?
A. One of them is Walnut Gap and the other one is up on Coal Fork, but I don't know whether that is the name or not.
Q. You were ever on Coal River.
A. I was at Jeffries on Coal River.
Q. And you came back from over there.
A. Yes I did.
Q. You went over there with Walter Allen.
A. Yes sir.
Q. And who else.
A. Sam McCann, Johnny Shannon and myself.
Q. Who came back with you.
A. Johnny Shannon.
Q. What time did you get back to Dry Branch?
A. About seven thirty.
Q. Didn't you preach a sermon there at that time in which you said to the people "for God's sake get together and go ever on Coal River, they are murdering women and children" and you would like to see the Mine Guard cleaned up.
A. No I did not.
Q. In addition to preaching have you been in any other business.
A. No.
Q. Are you not under indictment for selling liquor.
A. I am not.
Q. Were you not arrested and taken before a Justice of the Peace for selling liquor.
A. I was not.
Q. You never were.
A. No sir.
Mr. Belcher,
I want to move that the questions and answers about selling liquor be stricken out of the record.
The Court ordered that same be stricken out.
Q. What is the number of your local Union?
A. I believe it is 5045.
Q. What is the first date that you remember distinctly that you heard this question of the Armed march discussed.
A. What date?
Q. Yes sir.
A. I can't recall the date but it was on Saturday.
Q. In August or September.
A. In August.
Q. There were four Saturdays in August, the sixth, thirteenth, twentieth, and twenty-seventh, which was it.
A. I can't say.
Q. Can you give us some idea whether it was the sixth or the twenty-seventh.
A. It must have been the sixth, we get a pay day the week following.
Q. The sixth of August.
A. Somewheres along there.
Q. There are three other Saturdays, fix it as near as you can.
A. It might have been about the twentieth, I know we get a pay day during the middle of the following week.
Q. What first called the situation to your attention.
A. Whats that?
Q. What first called the situation about this armed march to your attention.
A. The men quitting at the Mines.
Q. That was on Saturday.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to the best of your recollection that was about the twentieth?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what cause them to quit?
A. Mr. Allen told me he had a letter and read it to them concerning this meeting and Mr. Flake made the motion to suspend the Mines.
Q. How did you get the men together.
A. They had all come there to go to work.
Q. Were you there?
A. No, sir I was not, I was at the powder house giving out powder.
Q. And then all you know about it is what someone told you.
A. Yes sir.
Q. You know nothing of your personal knowledge.
A. No.
Q. That is what you say Walter Allen told you, and you are positive about that.
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were not at that meeting.
A. No sir.
Q. I understood you to say they voted upon it.
A. That is what they told me.
Q. And every one who held up one foot was to go.
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many held up one foot.
A. I suppose the majority of them I don't know.
Q. Didn't Walter Allen tell you.
A. No.
Q. He told you a great many things at that time, didn't he tell you that.
A. No he said he read the letter to them and Mr. Flake made a motion.
Q. Did he show you the letter he read to them.
A. No.
Q. Do you know what was in the letter.
A. I do not.
Q. Where did you next see Walter Allen after that morning.
A. I saw him on Sunday.
Q. Where did you see him.
A. At Dry Branch.
Q. What was he doing there.
A. He came after me.
Q. What did he come after you for.
A. to help him take some men to camp.
Q. He forced you to go didn't he.
A. I say he did.
Q. Did he bring a gun with him.
A. He sure did.
Q. Did he draw it on you.
A. He did not.
Q. Did he tell you you had to go.
A. Yes sir.
Q. And to get your machine and go with him.
A. Yes sir.
Q. You didn't make any resistance.
A. I certainly did not.
Q. In other words everything you did in connection with that march you were forced to do.
A. Every time I made a trip with him it was from my home.
Q. And you were forced to go.
A. I certainly was.
Q. And everything you did you were forced to do.
A. That is correct.
Q. And he forced you to do everything.
A. Yes sir. After I was taken out in the morning I was under his instructions. Of course it was not compulsory every time but I was under his instructions.
Q. I understood you to say this morning in your examination in chief that your association with this march was a forced one.
A. It was.
Q. And everything you did in connection with it you were forced to do.
A. I was on that ground, yes sir.
Q. And that is the way you explain your reason for being in that march.
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you have no other explanation to make.
A. I have not.
Q. You say he came to your house on the twenty-first, on Sunday.
A. Yes sir.
Q. And where did you go.
A. I taken a load of men over there.
Q. Where to?
A. To Marmet where they were assembled.
Q. How many did you take.
A. Four.
Q. Who were they.
A. I didn't know them.
Q. Would you know any of them now.
A. No.
Q. Had you ever seen them since.
A. I saw them once or twice in the march.
Q. And you never found out their names.
A. No.
Q. Where did you pick up these four men.
A. On the bridge.
Q. Were they miners.
A. I never asked them any questions.
Q. Didn't they tell you.
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to them.
A. Yes sir.
Q. It is some eight or ten miles from Camels Creek to Marmet.
A. Something like that.
Q. You had to cross the river.
A. Yes sir.
Q. How did you go, across the bridge and up the other side of the Kanawha River.
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is some fifteen or sixteen miles, and you traveled that distance with these men and didn't ask them their names.
A. I did not.
Q. What kind of clothes did they have on.
A. Human clothes.
Q. Human clothes.
A. Yes.
Q. What color clothes.
A. I don't know I didn't pay much attention them.
Q. When you got to Marmet on Lens Creek what did you do with these men.
A. Unleaded them.
Q. They were forced to go with you were they.
A. I can't say.
Q. Then what did you do.
A. I came back home.
Q. Was Walter Allen in that car with you.
A. Yes sir.
Q. All the way.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did he get out and stay there.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where did you go then.
A. I took my wife to town.
Q. When did you next see Walter Allen.
A. At my home on Monday.
Q. On Dry Branch.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did he come there after you.
A. Yes sir.
Q. And forced you to do what.
A. He back over and haul provisions to them
Q. Did you got to Marmet.
A. I did.
Q. Then what did you do.
A. I went to the Kanawha Cash Grocery on Kanawha Street.
Q. That was on Monday the 22nd.
A. I would not swear it was the 22nd, but it was on Monday.
Q. Allen went with you.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then where did you go.
A. Back to Marmet.
Q. What time did you get back there.
A. About eleven o'clock.
Q. How long did you stay.
A. I judge about a half or three-quarters of an hour.
Q. Where did you go when you left Marmet.
A. Back to Charleston.
Q. What did you go back there for.
A. I went for ammunition.
Q. Did you get any.
A. I did not.
Q. Was any one with you.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Who was it.
A. Robert Sheppard.
Q. Where did you go after you could not get any ammunition.
A. I went home.
Q. To Dry Branch.
A. Yes sir.
Q: You didn't report back to camp.
A: No not then.
Q: When did you get back there again.
A: The next day.
Q: How did you get over then.
A: Mr. Sheppard came after me.
Q: He forced you to go.
A: He didn't force me but he said Mr. Allen told him to come over after me.
Q: He forced you to go didn't he.
A: No. He said Mr. Allen sent him after me.
Q: And you felt you were under compulsion to go.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You were still under Mr. Allen's influence.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When you got back on the 23rd what did you do.
A: I hauled some nurses up the hollow.
Q: Who were the nurses.
A: I don't know.
Q: How were they dressed.
A: They had white caps around their heads and white aprons.
Q: Had you ever seen them before.
A: I never had.
Q: What did you do with the nurses.
A: I took them six miles up the hollow.
Q: Who was with you in your car.
A: Mr. Sheppard and Mr. Flake.
Q: Who is Mr. Flake.
A: He is a miner who lives up there.
Q: Up where.
A: Dry Branch.
Q: How long did you stay at the camp on the 23rd.
A: I made a trip back to town, and then I taken two more nurses up the hollow.
Q: Where did you get these nurses.
A: At Marmet.
Q: What did you go to town for.
A: Ammunition.
Q: Did you get it.
A: No.
Q: What did you go back the second time for, when you had been there once and didn't get it.
A: They were expecting it and it didn't come.
Q: Where did they tell you to go after it.
A: On Kanawha Street.
Q: To what place.
A: The People's Store.
Q: What were you to do.
A: I was to wait there until I got a report.
Q: A report from whom.
A: Mr. Sheppard.
Q: Where was Sheppard.
A: Out in the town.
Q: Hadn't you left Sheppard at the Camp.
A: I did not.
Q: Did you take him to Charleston with you.
A: I did.
Q: Then they didn't let you know where they were going to get the ammunition.
A: Not at that time they didn't, no sir.
Q: They were keeping it a secret from you.
A: I don't know that they did, I never asked them.
Q: What time of the day did you get there at the People's Store in Charleston.
A: I made several trips there.
Q: I mean this time on the 23rd when you say you went after ammunition.
A: I think it was about one o'clock.
Q: And that is where you were to get the ammunition.
A: Yes, sir, that is where we stopped and he told me to wait there.
Q: And he told you, you were going to get the ammunition.
A: He did not. He just stepped and told me to wait.
Q: The Peoples Store is on the corner of Summers and Kanawha Streets, is it not.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: It is a big Department Store with lots of people coming and going all the time.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And this is the point where you were to wait for this ammunition.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When did you go back to Marmet.
A: I went straight back and got two men and took them to the Peoples Store.
Q: Who were they.
A: I don't know.
Q: Where did you go to after them.
A: I went back with Mr. Sheppard to Marmet.
Q: Where did you get these two men.
A: At Marmet.
Q: What did you take them there for.
A: They never told me.
Q: What did they do when they got there.
A: They got out of the car.
Q: Who told you to take them there.
A: Mr. Allen.
Q: When did you next see Allen.
A: I didn't see Mr. Allen any more until Friday.
Q: Then you didn't see him on Wednesday and Thursday.
A: No, sir.
Q: Where were you.
A: I was at home.
Q: Was Allen with you.
A: No.
Q: You were still under his influence were you not.
A: No, I was not under his influence when he didn't send for me.
Q: You were still being forced, were you not.
A:
Objection.
Sustained.
Q: When did you next see him there.
A: Friday evening.
Q: Where did you see him.
A: I saw him at Indian Creek on Coal River.
Q: Where is that.
A: On Coal River.
Q: How did you happen to go there.
A: Mr. Flake came to me on Friday morning and said they wanted me and my car on Coal River.
Q: Did he tell you what they wanted you for.
A: No.
Q: And you went.
A: I went.
Q: Never asking what you were going for.
A: No.
Q. You say it was Mr. Flake that told you they wanted you.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You say he told you they wanted your car.
A: He came to my house Friday and my wife went to the door, and he said "Where is Lee? They want him with his car on Coal River."
Q: Who did he mean by them.
A: Mr. Allen.
Q: He didn't mention Allen's name.
A: No.
Q: Did you go right up there.
A: I went about nine-thirty.
Q: What time did you get to Indian Creek.
A: We missed the road to Indian Creek and got back there about three-thirty.
Q: Where did you go from there.
A: I went back home.
Q: Who did you bring with you.
A: Mr. Flake.
Q: What did they want with you.
A: I don't know. We understood Mr. Keeney had ordered the men to go back home, and there were going, and that is why the plans were changed.
Q: That was on Friday.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: About three-thirty you understood Mr. Keeney had ordered the men back.
A: I had heard it before that. I met some men on the way and heard it.
Q: On the 26th when you were there who did you see.
A: I saw Mr. Munsey.
Q: Where was he.
A: He was on Indian Creek.
Q: What day was that.
A: That was Friday.
Q: Are you positive of that.
A: Yes sir, I am.
Q: What time did you reach home.
A: I reached home about nine thirty or ten o'clock that evening.
Q: That was Friday. What did you do the next day.
A: I stayed in my store.
Q: All day.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What did you do the next day.
A: Sunday?
Q: Yes.
A: About eleven o'clock, Jeffries.
Q: Who did you take.
A: Mr. allen, Mr. McCann and Johnny Shannon.
Q: What did you go over there for.
A: Mr. Allen came to me Sunday morning and said he wanted me to take them over to Jeffries, and I made the excuse that my casings were worn out, and he said the hell with that. He said he had plenty of money to get new casings and he said he would take my car and go anyhow. I didn't want anyone to drive my car so I went.
Q: What did you go for.
A: I never asked Mr. Allen what he was going for.
Q: Did you have any idea of what you were going for.
A: I certainly did.
Q: What did you think you were going for.
A: To see what was going on, probably orders that had been given him. I had an idea. I was not a fool.
Q: Give us that idea.
A: I did give it.
Q: You said your idea was that you were going there to see what was going on.
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did you receive any report that there was anything going on.
A: That night we did. We received reports that the Baldwin Felts men had gone in there and beat up some families.
Q: And that was the reason you understand you were going over there.
A: Yes sir.
Q: And that was the reason Mr. Walter Allen was going.
A: Yes sir.
Q: Who was it that beat up some of the families.
A: The Baldwin Felts men.
Q: Who were they.
A. A gang of thugs that beat up people every chance they get.
Q: By whom were they employed.
A: By the operators.
Q:
Objection.
Sustained.
Last question and answer ordered stricken out.
Q: That was on Sunday, was it not, that they came over after you, this time to take them to Jeffries.
A: Yes sir on Sunday morning.
Q: Whom did I say came after you.
A: Mr. Allen.
Q: Who else.
A: Mr. McCann.
Q: Did they tell you at that time why they wanted you to take them to Jeffries.
A: They did not.
Q: Never discussed that with you at all.
A: No.
Q: All they said to you was that they wanted you to take them back to Jeffries.
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did you see anyone along the road.
A: Do you mean campers.
Q: No, marching men.
A: We did not.
Q: Did you see any marching men when you got to Jeffries.
A: No.
Q: Did you see any men along the road anywhere.
A: We did not.
Q: What did you do when you got to Jeffries.
A: I fixed a puncture and was there about an hour and Mr. Allen told me I could go back.
Q: You did not see any body of men there.
A: I saw one or two men that lived there.
Q: Did you know them.
A: I knew one of them.
Q: Did you talk to them?
A: I did.
Q: Did they say anything to you about any shooting that had taken place.
Objection
Sustained.
Q: Where did you go then?
A: I came back home.
Q: Who came with you?
A: Mr. Shannon.
Q: That was on Sunday. Where did you go on Monday?
A: I stayed home.
Q: All day?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where did you go on Tuesday?
A: I went to Ohio.
Q: Who went with you?
A: Mr. Flake, Mr. Shannon and two other fellows.
Q: That is the day you say you went by Huntington and up the Ohio River?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you know where you were headed for?
A: Yes, sir, but I forget the name of the town.
Q: Was it Galpolis [sic]?
A: No, it was not Galipolis [Gallipolis].
Q: It was not Irinton [Ironton], was it?
A: No.
Q: You went to Huntington and came back up the West Virginia side of the Ohio River?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What was that man's name?
A: Whiting.
Q: Did you talk to him?
A: We stayed all night with him.
Q: On Tuesday night?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Then where did you go next?
A: Back to Huntington and down to Catlettsburg.
Q: And you bought some ammunition there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: About $250 worth?
A: $255 worth, I think.
Q: Who paid for it?
A: Mr. Flake.
Q: Where did he get the money?
A: From the Local on Camel's Creek [Campbell's Creek].
Q: What Local?
A: Putney Local.
Q: How do you know he got it there?
A: I saw the man give it to him.
Q: Who gave it to him?
A: The secretary/
Q: Do you know it came from the Local?
A: The secretary said it did, he said "we had a meeting last night and here is the money"
Q: That was on the 31st that you bought that ammunition?
A: I dont remember the date.
Q: It was on Wednesday, was it?
A: Yes, sir/
Q: What time did you get back?
A: About 7 o'clock.
Q: To Marmet?
A: No to Dry Branch.
Q: What did you do with the ammunition?
A: Mr. Flake kept it until the next morning.
Q: That would be Sept. 1st, Thursday? Then what did you do with it?
A: Took it to Marmet.
Q: Did you go?
A: I did.
Q: What did you do with it then?
A: Unloaded it into another car.
Q: Then where did you go?
A: Back to Charleston.
Q: What did you do when you got back to Charleston?
A: I fooled around town and then went on home.
Q: Didn't you have any further connection with this matter after that?
A: No.
Q: That ended your connection with it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When did you next see Walter Allen?
A: I saw him Thursday evening or Friday evening, I wont say which.
Q: Of that same week?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You didn't get back home until Thursday morning. Did you see him that same day?
A: I got back home Wednesday evening, and either Thursday evening or Friday evening he came back.
Q: Yes but you delivered the ammunition on Thursday. Did you see him that day?
A: Either that day or the next evening.
Q: Did you see Munsey there?
A: Munsey came in ahead of him.
Q: Where did he come from?
A: I don't know. I didn't ask him.
Q: From the time you left Walter Allen at Jeffries on Sunday, the 28th of August, you never say any more until Thirsday [Thursday] evening of that week?
A: Either Thursday evening or Friday evening.
Q: If it was Thursday evening it would be Sept. 1st, and if it was Friday it would be Sept. 2nd?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: From the time you saw Dee Munsey at Indian Creek on the 26th, where did you next see him?
A: At home.
Q: The same day you saw Walter Allen?
A: No he came in ahead of Walter Allen.
Q: You took Walter Allen away on Sunday?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When did Munsey leave?
A: On Monday.
Q: How do you know?
A: I saw him leave.
Q: With whom?
A: A crowd of men.
Q: Did you know any of them?
A: Part of them.
Q: How did they leave?
A: In jitneys.
Q: Was it night or day?
A: Day time.
Q: That was on the 29th, Monday?
A: Monday, yes sir.
Q: You didn't see Mr. Munsey any more until when?
A: I guess it was Friday evening Mr. Allen came back, and Mr. Munsey came on Thursday evening. He was ahead of Mr. Allen.
Q: Who were those gentlemen that went with you after the ammunition?
A: John Flake, Jonny Shannon, and two other men. I dont remember their names.
Q: You went all the way with them and didn't find out their name?
A: I knew their name but I dont remember them.
Q: Did you make more than one trip for ammunition?
A: That was the only trip I made down there.
Q: You didn't get any ammunition in Charleston, did you?
A: No.
Q: The only ammunition you got was the $255 worth in Catlettsburg?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How much did that make?
A: Right much.
Q: Do you know how much?
A: No sir there were two men carrying it.
Q: Was it in two packages?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: One man was carrying each package?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see what was inside of the package?
A: Yes, sir that evening when we got home they put it in separate piles and marked them what they were.
Q: The day you went over to Jeffries, you say Johnny Shannon, McCann and Allen were in the car with you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: I understand you to say they didn't tell you at that time why they were going to Logan or Jeffries at that time, is that right?
A: They didn't tell me what they were going for.
Q: I just want to understand you correctly. If I understand you correctly, Allen, Munsey, Shannon and McCann, none of these parties connected with you, ever told you on any of these trips why they were going into Logan County? Is that right?
A: Yes, Mr. Allen did on one of these times.
Q: When was that?
A: One time going to Charleston. He said they were going there to do away with Don Chafin and his gang and get the prisoners out and organize the place.
Q: And he was the only person who ever said that to you?
A: Yes.
Q: He was the only person you ever heard say that?
A: Yes.
Q: So far as you know then, that was the only reason why Walter Allen went over there?
A: Yes.
Q: And you do not mean to be understood to say that he ever went over there for any other purpose?
Objection.
Objection overruled.
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Keeney?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see him in connection with the march?
A: I saw him on one of the trips up to the camp. He was coming out of the camp.
Q: You did not talk to him?
A: No.
Q: You don't know where he was going, do you?
A: No.
Q: You say you met him on the road?
A: Yes.
Q: That was the only time you saw him in that vicinity?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see Mr. Mooney there?
A: No.
Q: Was Mr. Blizzard there?
A: I would not know Mr. Blizzard if I saw him.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BELCHER.
Q: In answer to a question by Mr. Townsend you stated this morning that he read a letter to the men. Did he state from whom that was?
A: No.
Q: I also understand you to say in answer to a question by Mr. Townsend that when you got back to Dry Branch from Kentucky that this ammunition was sorted—who sorted it?
A: Mr. Flake, Shannon and old man Shepherd.
Q: Of what caliber were the cartridges sorted that night?
A: thirty-thirties, forties and forty-ones. They had some fifty-fifties, too, in one bunch. Those were about the only kinds.
Q: Tell the jury whether or not all of these are what is called high power cartridges.
A: All except two boxes they were high power shells.
Q: What were the two boxes that were not high power shells?
A: They were thirty-twos.
Q: Were they rifle shells?
A: No, they were pistol shells.
Q: And there were only two boxes of these?
A: Yes.
RECROSS EXAMINATION.
Q: I believe you said on one trip to the camp at Marmet that you had to get some sort of a pass to get out—is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Who gave you that pass?
A: Mr. Allen.
Q: Did he sign his name to it and that of Mr. Blizzard?
A: Yes.
Q: You saw him sign both names?
A: Yes.
Q: You are sure?
A: I certainly am. I sat in the car in the seat and he signed it right there on the car.
Witness dismissed.