Fred Holly
(transcriber may have made spelling and punctuation changes)
FRED HOLLY, a witness of lawful age, being first duly sworn -
Q: Mr. Belcher: Have you been sworn?
A: Yes.
Q: How old are you Fred?
A: Twenty-two.
Q: Where do you live?
A: At Leevale.
Q: What is your occupation?
A: Miner.
Q: Where is Leevale.
A: On Big Coal River.
Q: Where were you during the months of August and September, 1921?
A: I was several different places.
Q: Were you a member of the United Mine Workers of America in September and August of last year?
A: I was.
Q: To what local did you belong?
A: No. 2575.
Q: In what district was that local?
A: In District 17
Q: In what subdistrict?
A: Subdistrict 2.
Q: Who is President of Subdistrict No. 2?
A: William Blizzard is what I heard.
Q: Were you at Lens Creek during the time of the assemblage of the miners there?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you first go there?
A: I don't know the date exactly. It was on Tuesday, I think.
Q: Were you there at the time Mother Jones made her speech?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you first go there with reference to the time she made her speech?
A: I think it was the day before.
Q: Had you seen Mother Jones at this point before you heard her making her speech?
A: No.
Q: Did you hear the speech made by Mother Jones?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell the jury what you heard her say on this occasion?
A: I heard her advising the miners to return home. She said they were in the wrong, and she said that she would go to Washington and see what she could do with the President about the conditions they wanted.
Q: Did you see any of the officials of District 17 there at this time?
A: I did.
Q: Whom did you see there?
A: I saw Mr. Keeney, and I don't remember whether it was that day or the day before, but I saw Mr. Blizzard there one day, but I am not sure of the day of the week.
Q: Did you hear any statement made by Mr. Keeney?
A: Yes, soon after Mother Jones made her speech.
Q: What did you hear him say?
A: Do you mean, did he make a talk?
Q: Yes. Did you hear him say anything there?
A: Yes, I heard him making a talk.
Q: What did you hear him saying?
A: He made a talk and told that Mother Jones - she had a telegram, that she read. It was like this - she was in a buggy of some kind. It seemed to be a buggy, or a wagon, but it looked like a buggy, and she had a telegram that she read advising the men to return home. Mr. Keeney said Mother Jones was a fake. That she was a traitor to the United Mine Workers.
Q: What else, if anything, did he say?
A: He made several speeches. It was a good talk but I don't know what it all was. I never understood it all and did not get all he said.
Q: What action, if any, was taken by the miners at the time Mother Jones advised them to go home?
A: They voted to return home.
Q: Did they return home?
A: No, not at the present time.
Q: Why did they not return home?
A: I don't know. It was my understanding that they got order to go further.
Q: From whom did they get these orders.
Objection.
Objection sustained.
Q: Do you know who gave the orders?
A: I know the name of the man who was in command.
Q: What was his name?
A: W. R. Kirk.
Q: What did he tell the men at that time, if anything?
A: He told them to march to Indian creek and that was where they went.
Q: How soon was that after Mother Jones' speech? How long until you heard him give that order?
A: It was between four and six in the evening. A good while afterward.
Q: Where was Mr. Keeney at that time?
A: I don't know. He left in an automobile and I don't know where he went.
Q: After this order was given to you about four o'clock, to drive to Indian Creek, what did you do?
A: All the men started for Indian Creek.
Q: How many men were at this meeting at the time they started for Indian Creek?
A: I judge then to be about 5,000, but I am not sure. It was quite a large number of them.
Q: Were they armed?
A: Most of the[m] were, I suppose.
Q: What kind of arms did they have?
A: Pistols, high power rifles is all I can tell you.
Q: After you started, did you go to Indian creek.
A: We did.
Q: How did you go?
A: Up Lens Creek and Down the creek to Racine, a station on the Big Coal River line. Then we went probably half a mile up the hollow below Racine up Indian Creek.
Q: What did you do next?
A: We went to Danville next.
Q: How did you get to Danville?
A: We went up the hollow and then came down in another hollow. I am not acquainted with the names up there.
Q: Then you went across the county and not by railroad?
A: Yes, we went through the woods, more of the time.
Q: At Danville, did you see any officials of the United Mine Workers
A: Yes.
A: Mr. Keeney is the only one I remember.
Q: Where did you see him?
A: At Danville, at the ball park.
Q: What was he doing at the ball park?
A: I suppose he made a speech there.
Q: Did you hear him making a speech there?
A: Yes, I heard him talk a little.
Q: How did you get into the ball park?
A: I just walked in.
Q: Did you have to get a pass to get in?
A: I absolutely did.
Q: What was the pass word?
A: Well, we had so many I can't be sure, but I think we used "Going to Mingo" at that time.
Q: What did Mr. Keeney tell you, if anything, on that occasion?
A: He advised the men to return home.
Q: Did you see what he did immediately after he stopped speaking?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he make any statement after he stopped speaking to the men?
A: I saw him talking to some of the men.
Q: Who were the men?
A: I don't know all of them.
Q: Can you give the names of any of them?
A: I know one was named Kirk, who was captain to a gang.
Q: What did you hear Keeney say, if anything, to the men at that time.
A: To the best of opinion, I hear him say -
Q: Don't talk about your opinion, Tell us what he heard, if anything. Just what you recollect.
A: He said for those fellows who were in charge to go on where they had started. That is my information.
Q: Did you hear him say that?
A: I was standing in the crowd with a few other fellows and that is what I heard him say.
Q: Why are you talking about your opinion then?
Objection.
Objection overruled.
Q: Did you hear him make any other statement?
A: Yes.
Q: What was it.
A: I heard him say he had to tell the men that in the presence of General ** I did not catch his name. That he had to make that speech to same District 17
Q: How far is it from Leevale to Marmet?
A: I judge about thirty miles. It is 24 miles from Leevale to Cabin creek and I don't know the distance from Cabin creek junction to Marmet, but I judge it is about thirty miles.
Q: How many men went from your local to attend the assembly at Marmet?
A: Thirty two.
Q: Have you their names?
A: I have the names of some of them. I can tell you all the names. I have them written down here.
Q: What are they.?
A: Van Thompson, Ronald Gerald, Wilson Gerald, Frank Stamper, Tanley Stamper, Charlie Spangler, Audie Thompson, Toney Thompson. I have twenty names down here.
Q: What is that you are reading from.
A: Here it is, you can see it for yourself.
Q: Did you write these names here yourself?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Do you know all these men?
A: I belong to that local, and I know every man who went from that local.
Q: Do you remember those who were there? Do you remember that these men were there?
A: Yes, and they went to Logan when the war was on.
Q: That is your recollection, when you refresh it from your notes?
Objection.
Objection overruled.
Exception taken.
Q: Give the names of the men who went with you?
A: Van Thompson, Wilson Gerald, Ronald Gerald, Tanley Stamper, Frank Stamper, Henry Voley, Shadey Stevens, Bell Booke, Alfred Stevens, Walder Lastley, Holly Ballard, Nick Congress, Mike Kennedy, Russel Withrow, bob Vanderpool, Audie Thompson, Grover Sauders, Grover Stevens, Toney Thompson, Clifford Hawkins. That is all I have in this book.
Q: You are sure all of these men were there?
A: Yes, every one of them were there.
Q: Did you see this Mr. Kirk there?
A: I absolutely did.
Q: Did you see him there after you heard Mr. Keeney make the statement in the ball park?
A: I did.
Q: Where did you go next?
A: I went home.
Q: Were you on the second march?
A: I was not.
Q: How did you get home?
A: By special train.
Q: Did all the men whose names you have mentioned leave Leevale with you?
A: Yes.
Q: How many of them were armed?
A: I think only two or three had high power rifles in the crowd and there were a few pistols. There were not many arms at this place.
Q: At the time you left Marmet, after having orders to do, where did you have orders to go?
A: I did not know.
Q: Did you hear anyone say where you were going?
A: Some of them said to Mingo county.
Q: What did they say they were going to Mingo for?
A: To release prisoners in Mingo county and to organize
Q: Did you hear them say anything else?
A: Said they were going to test this martial.
Q: You say they said they were going to contest this Martial law?
A: Yes, they said they were going to contest this martial law to see what it was.
Q: Did you understand, or were you told then how they were going to contest this martial law when they got to Mingo County?
A: No.
Q: Did you understand how they were going to do it?
A: I really had my own opinion that they were going to do it by use of those guns, or why else would they have been packing them around.
Q: Where did you get your gun?
A: I owned one myself.
Q: Do you know whether the other men with you got armed after they got to camp?
A: I could not tell you that.
Q: You gave us a pass word that you used a while ago. You say there were many others used. Can you give any other pass words that were used on these trips.
A: That is the only one I had. I have heard others that the other fellows had, but I was not there in the fighting. I had this password "going to Mingo", and that is all I had.
Q: Is that the first password you had?
A: Yes, that is the pass I used.
Motion by Counsel for defendant to strike out the testimony of this witness (Mr. Houston).
Motion overruled.
Exception taken.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. TOWNSEND.
Q: Will you let me see that list you have there.
A: Yes. (List handed to Mr. Townsend)
Q: How many men did you say le[f]t Leevale?
A: Thirty two, but I only gave twentyone names.
Q: Where are the others.
A: You never asked for them. They went on and asked me some other question after I read those off the book there.
Q: Were you not asked to read the thirty-two names?
A: I said I had some of them. I did not say I had thirty two names there.
Q: Did you not say you could give the thirty two names?
A: I did. I gave them twentyone and they went on and asked me another questions about something else.
Q: where are the other eleven names. Are they in this book?
A: No.
Q: Can you give them to us?
A: I suppose I might.
Q: Can you do it?
A: You have never asked for them.
Q: I now ask you to give them to the Jury.
A: Which name did we stop with?
Q: You just give the other eleven names to the jury.
A: Charlie Spengler, W. M. Manus, John Smoot, Albert Mincehouse, Harrison Massey, Sam Dickens, Letcher Vanderpool. I don't think you any business looking clear through that book. Those names are all you asked to look at.
Q: I guess you are right. Is that all? It is not 32 yet. Is that all you can recall?
A: Yes, that is all I ca[n] recall at present.
Q: Are all the names in this book?
A: No, not all.
Q: Are the twenty-one all that are in it? The eleven other names are not in it, are they?
A: Some of them are not in the book
Q: The last list of names you gave are not in the book, are they?
A: I don't suppose so, but I might have called a name twice.
Q: Did you see these 32 men after you left Leevale?
A: Yes.
Q: All of them?
A: Yes, I ought to have seen them. We had a company of our own.
Q: Did all the 32 go to Marmet together?
A: Yes.
Q: And then from Marmet to Indian Creek?
A: Yes.
Q: And from Indian Creek to Madison?
A: We all did not go from Indian creek to Madison together.
Q: How many of you went together
A: Four or five of us with guns. The reason for that was that the men with high power rifles were put in front.
Q: You got split up in Indian creek?
A: Yes.
Q: How many went with you from Indian creek?
A: Four or five.
Q: Then you four or five remained together?
A: Yes.
Q: And you went to the ball park together at Madison?
A: Yes.
Q: You went there together?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you say that these four or five men went there with you?
A: I could say that two or three of them did.
Q: Which ones were there with you?
A: Charlie Spengler, Van Thompson, Theodore Gerald, I know were in the crowd. Theodore Gerald is captain of our company
Q: Then you four stayed together, and were close together all the time?
A: Yes, we stayed close together all the time.
Q: When you left there, were you still together?
A: We all got on the train when it came in Saturday morning and we came back home together. We got off the train at Whitesville.
Q: What day was it you got to Marmet?
A: I don't remember the day of the week, but it was somewhere about the last of August.
Q: Was it the day before Mother Jones made her speech?
A: I think it was about that time.
Q: How did you go from Cabin creek junction to Marmet - by train?
A: We hiked it on number two.
Q: When you got to Lens creek, did you find anyone there?
A: There was quite a bunch there on guard.
Q: That was the day before Mother Jones spoke, was it not?
A: I don't know exactly. It was Tuesday that we went, and probably Mother Jones spoke on Wednesday.
Q: When you got there, was there a guard line at the bridge going up the creek?
A: Yes.
Q: That was before Mother Jones made her speech?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have to give any pass words to get through these guard lines?
A: Not to get in, but you did to get out.
Q: You heard Mother Jones make her speech, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: What did she say.
A: She advised the men to return to their home. He had a telegram in her hand that she read from. She said she would go to Washington and see the President and see what she could do.
Q: What was she going to Washington for?
A: My understanding was that the men were marching against martial law to make that an organized field. It is a non-union field. And she said she would go to Washington and make arrangements for the men to be organized in that field.
Q: Do you mean in Mingo and Logan counties?
A: Yes, that was my understanding.
Q: Then you understood that the purpose of that assembly was to have Logan and Mingo Counties organized?
A: That was what I understood.
Q: And Mother Jones said she was going to Washington to see if she could not arrange to have that done?
A: Yes, to see if she could not get them satisfaction.
Q: The dissatisfaction was in regard to the field not being organized?
A: That was the way I understood it.
Q: That was the way you understood what she said?
A: I never understood it until I went there.
Q: I mean at the time you heard Mother Jones make her speech?
A: Yes.
Q: You understood that from her speech, did you?
A: I did.
Q: And the men with you had the same understanding that you did?
A: I can't tell you about anyone else's but my own mind.
Objection.
Objection overruled.
Q: You don't know what they understood
A: No, I don't know anything but my own mind.
Q: From what source did you get your understanding - from Mother Jones's speech?
A: Yes.
Q: And they all heard her speech, did they not?
A: Yes, I guess so.
Q: You heard them talking about the same thing, did you not?
A: Yes, they were all talking all around.
Q: And they had the same thing in their mind as you had, did they not - they were all talking about it - they had listened to the same speech you had, had they not?
A: Yes, I guess they did.
Q: You, and the men all around you there, were all talking about the same thing, were you not?
A: Yes, I guess so. They were talking about going to Mingo.
Q: To organize it, etc?
A: Yes.
Q: You say you heard Mr. Keeney say something at that time. Where was he with reference to Mother Jones?
A: Not so far. He was in the same hollow.
Q: That hollow is about fifteen miles long, is it not?
A: It may be long, for all I know.
Q: You went up it, did you not?
A: Yes, but I did not have any mileage [gauge] to measure with.
Q: You said he was in the same hollow - how far was he from Mother Jones?
A: Probably something like four or five hundre[d] feet away. The men never moved any until we started down the hollow when Mother Jones told them to return home, and the guard lines would not let us by.
Q: How far off was Frank Keeney from Mother Jones when he made his speech - you said about 500 feet, did you not?
A: I said maybe 500 ft.
Q: You said he was four or five hundred feet distant, did you not?
A: I did not. I said between four and five hundred ft.
Q: You said he was between 4 and 500 feet from Mother Jones?
A: Yes, that is what I said
Q: How far were you from Frank Keeney?
A: I don't know.
Q: Give the jury some idea of how far you were - were you as far away as Mother Jones?
A: No.
Q: How far was that?
A: I was close to him. I am not much of a judge of distance.
Q: You seem to be a good judge of distance sometimes.
Objection.
Objection sustained.
Q: You say Mother Jones was four or five hundred feet from Mr. Keeney?
A: I did not - I said he was between 4 and 500 feet from Mother Jones - I did not say she was 4 or 500 feet from him.
Q: How far were you from Mother Jones.
A: I was standing there against the old buggy she was in.
Q: While she was making her speech, did you see Frank Keeney?
A: No, not at that time.
Q: Did you see him while she was making her speech?
A: No, while she was making her speech, I was not looking for him.
Q: Then how do you know he was 500 ft. from her?
A: He came after that.
Q: But you told me he was 4 or 500 feet from Mother Jones - if you could not see him at the time she made her speech how could you know how far away he was?
A: I thought you were talking about the time he made his speech. You did not explain what you were talking about. That is what I believe it was.
Q: At that time he made his speech, give the jury some idea of how far you were from him?
A: 20 or 40 ft., something like that.
Q: Did you hear what he said?
A: I heard him say Mother Jones was a fake, and a traitor to the United Mine Workers.
Q: You say you were 20 to 40 feet away - was he on an elevation when he talked?
A: He was in an automobile
Q: He was standing up in the automobile?
A: I suppose he was?
Q: Talking to the crowd?
A: Yes.
Q: Making a speech?
A: Yes.
Q: And the next time you saw Mr. Keeney was over at Danville, or Madison?
A: Yes, that is the next place I saw him.
Q: How far were you from him when he made his speech at that time?
A: I don't know exactly.
Q: Give the jury some idea.
A: I should say 30 or 50 ft. I was standing in the crowd with four or five others.
Q: Where was Mr. Keeney standing?
A: I think he was in the ball park.
Q: I understand he was in the ball park, but where in the ball park was he when he delivered his speech. You must have some idea.
A: Yes, I have an idea.
Q: Well, just tell the jury.
A: Do you mean where he was standing, or in what position?
Q: I mean the place in the ball park where he was standing?
A: He was in the ball park.
Q: I know that. Was he on the grandstand?
A: Yes.
Q: And you say you were from 30 to 50 ft. from him?
A: There were a lot of men in front of me. A fellow had to get in where he could. They were pretty crowded there.
Q: And on that occasion he said for you to go back home, did he not?
A: Yes, to return home.
Q: What else did he say?
A: He said he would try to get a special train to take them home.
Q: And he told you to go home?
A: Yes.
Q: And they did go back?
A: A majority of them did.
Q: You went back, did you not?
A: I did.
Q: Who was with Mr. Keeney at that time?
A: An Army officer. I think it was General - I can't speak his name.
Q: Was he standing on the grandstand too?
A: Yes, I think he was.
Q: Now, why did you - where was Kirk at that time?
A: He was standing kind of away from - not far - over towards the crowd a little piece.
Q: Mr. Keeney left the stand in the ball park and you say he talked to Kirk?
A: Yes, sir, he did.
Q: And you heard him?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How close were you?
A: I judge about as close as that man sitting there by the railing (indicating) there
Q: About 10 or 15 feet - 10 feet?
A: I would not say exactly, I judge about that far.
Q: What did you hear him say?
A: I heard him tell him he had to make that speech in order to save District 17.
Q: He had to make that speech in order to save District 17?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What else did you hear him say?
A: He said they had gone to far to lose now.
Q: What else did he say?
A: That is about all I heard him say, I did not pay much attention, of course I did not listen to all his talk.
Q: What?
A: I did not listen to all his talk, I could not remember all he said, it takes a fellow with a pretty good memory to remember about a year.
Q: He said they have gone too far to lose now?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Also said he had to make that speech to save District 17.
A: That is what he said.
Q: And that is all you remember that he said?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You are positive of that.
A: I am.
Q: You cannot be mistaken about it?
A: I don't think so.
Q: You are quite positive these two statements are all you heard Mr. Keeney say to Kirk. That is correct?
A: You mean I heard Mr. Keeney tell this fellow Kirk?
Q: Yes.
A: That is about all I remember.
Q: Now were these statements you heard Mr. Keeney make to Kirk made in the presence of General Banholtz?
A: No, sir, they were not, it was part of his business I suppose to keep General Banholtz from knowing.
Q: That is just your speculation? Your idea?
A: Yes, of course.
Q: Now, did you see Kirk and talk to him after -
A: Yes, sir.
Q: After what?
A: After this speech was over and this happened.
Q: Did you see Kirk and talk to him after you saw Kirk and Keeney talking?
A: I did, sir.
Q: I understood you to say you saw Mr. Blizzard, where did you see him?
A: If I am not mistaken I saw Mr. Blizzard down at Marmet.
Q: The day Mother Jones made a speech or the day before?
A: I don't know exactly - in fact I never paid much attention to it.
Q: What is your best recollection about it?
A: Well, I don't have much recollection about it myself
Q: You do recollect you saw him there during some time?
A: Some time when he was at Marmet.
Q: But you don't know the exact day?
A: No.
Q: Are you acquainted with him?
A: I know him when I see him.
Q: Did you talk to him?
A: Not that day, him or nobody else but the crowd that was with me, of course there was quite a bunch there.
Q: Did you not see Mr. Blizzard at the ball park?
A: No.
Q: Do you know Mr. Mooney?
A: Yes sir.
Q: He made a speech?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: He told the men to go back?
A: He did.
Q: What else did you hear him say?
A: He told the men to go back and said he would arrange for a special train to carry them home.
Q: He got out in the crowd also?
A: He did.
Q: What did you hear him say?
A: I heard him tell Kirk and another captain or lieutenant there he had to make that speech in order to save District 17.
Q: That was Mr. Mooney that talked about -
A: No, Mr. Keeney, I do not know Mr. Mooeny [sic] when I see him.
Q: Did anybody else make a speech there at Danville except Keeney? When did you write that list of names in the book?
A: The day they started away; these 20 on there went from our own local to Logan County to fight, those twenty were in the same gang I was. Twenty of those men went to Logan to fight or they all left with high-power rifles and pistols that were given to them and that is what they said they were going for.
Dismissed.